Who shot Michael Collins?

arctic lemur

Any theories on who shot Michael Collins?

Dummy

For me this is a really interesting question and one that has dogged me for years. I have listened and read to what Meda Ryan and Tim Pat have said in the past and I agree with the common theory.

The theory has been,that unless it was a chance shot, Sonny O'Neill would have been the only person qualified or capable of such a shot.

Because of the large exit wound, if it had been a chance shot, it would have had to have been a ricochet.

Dr. Harbison suggested a few years back, that such a wound could have been caused by a dum dum bullet.

Dum dums while banned even then, were widely used by the experienced marksman and I gather, O'Neill was such a marksman.

But do not forget that there was close to 40 armed men in Longs pub that day. Not all of these had .303's needed for decent accuracy at range but many carried Mausers and revolvers.

Good question, as I am very interested in this topic. I will enjoy following this thread to hear other opinions.

Take Care.

tim3115

Was he shot at the back of the ear do you know?

arctic lemur

Yes he was. I thought it was odd how no post-mortem was carried out. I disagree with the theory that it was Sonny O'Neill but rather Emmett Dalton.

Dummy

Emmett Dalton ???? Are you for real ????

arctic lemur

Yes I am for real and I will post my theory tomorrow!

SpitfireIV

Just my 2 cents on the topic,

But something I also found very very strange was the fact that there was a dispute as to how many wounds Collins actually had, some say there was only the large wound (behind the right ear) while others claim to have seen a small entry wound at the hairline on the forehead and then the explosive exit wound. This fact wasnt even verified for certain, again adding to the suspicion.

Another interesting fact was how Emmet Dalton always claimed that Collins body was first taken to the Bon Secour hospital in Cork (I think, correct me if I'm wrong) when in fact he was taken to Shanakiel hospital. They couldnt even settle on this fact.

As for who shot him, well my opinion is it could have been any of the IRA in the laneway above the road, it was fading light, they were retreating and firing off pot shots, any of these could have hit Collins or riquocheted. Even though Sonny O'Neill had claimed that he may have shot Collins, it just cant be proved.

Perhaps if there is anyone responsible for his death, its himself! He was in an area of Cork teaming with guerilla fighters, in an open top touring car, with a less than adequate convoy (Half of whom had served in the British army, including Dalton) he took a serious risk and it resulted in his death. Normal procedure in that situation would be that he'd be put into the armoured car and brought to safety, but that wasnt Collins, he'd sooner fight them.

But the most suspicious thing of all is how an inquest or inquiry wasnt held into his death, I know there was an order shortly before his death about how inquests were to be suspended etc, but still, this was Michael Collins, the commander and chief of the Irish Free State forces, surely that fact would have made for an inquest.

Thats my thought on the topic, I could keep going here, but I'll leave it at that, I'll keep an eye on this thread, could be interesting.

All the best,

CroppyBoy1798

Dummy

I look forward to your theory.

tim3115

it could have been any of the IRA in the laneway above the road

Is that the steep steps leading up to some farmhouse now? And was Collins shot on the opposite side of where the momument stands currently?

I've heard similar confusion about the hospital situation at that time. I've heard that Collins was brought to a hospital a good distance away, and could have been brought to one close by (which could have saved his life, so they say). How true this is, I don't know.

The dum dums stuff is interesting I must say, never heard about that before!

SpitfireIV

tim3115,

The steep steps up to the farm house is on the opposite side of the road from where the most of the Republican forces were (I say 'most' because as the skirmish was in its dying stages a few groups of retreating IRA men came on the scene from that side and fired a few rounds at the departing convoy) The laneway up the the farmhouse would be more or less opposite the small bridge where the mine was layed.

I never heard there being any mention of there being hope for saving him, he died a couple of seconds, or a minute after being hit, that is, that when they found him there was some life left in him. It was a pretty large wound and Dr Goragty later explained just how much wax it took to pack the wound up, so I doubth there was any chance at all of him being saved.

The dum dum, is a very ineresting alright, pretty crude though and was banned by the Geneva convention, these were regular bullets with an X cut into the top and so on impact would burst open and in effect create the wound seen on the back of Collins head. But his wound is also sufficent with that of an exit wound, an entry wound from a dum dum would have been a lot messier and doesnt fit in with the small entry wound as claimed by some witnesses.

Tim3115, Collins was found (after been shot) just around the bend from the monument on the Bandon side, the first monument to be placed there (and may still be there) was a white stone with a cross on it, thats where he was believed to have been shot, but was in reality where his body was dragged back to for the cover of the armoured car.

There was also a story I heard once of how after the fighting was over, Collins revolver was left behind (presumably fell out of the holster when he was picked up) and this revolver came into the posession of General O'Duffy, how true that is, I dont know.

CroppyBoy1798

Hagar

Not all dum-dums are made that way.

The bullet is drilled down from the point towards the base. This leaves a hollow "tube" inside the bullet. Then this tube is partially filled ( 1/3 approx ) with mercury. The tip is then soldered closed. Upon firing the mercury is pushed towards the rear of the bullet and doesn't affect it's trajectory. Upon impact the mercury shoots forward and destroys the ballistic balance of the bullet causing it to tumble and cause massive tissue damage.

This type of bullet would leave a normal enough entry wound and a massive exit wound as appears to be the case with Michael Collins.

Don't ask me how I know these things. I won't answer.

tim3115

Where were you August 22nd 1922?

CroppyBoy, I'm still a bit confused. Where exactly are you talking about?

SpitfireIV

Tim3115,

I think I confused myself there, I'll try to explain further, but, in 1922 that roadway was nothing to what it is like now, back then it was a narrow country road, today its very wide, particulary at the monument, but, even if you stand across the road from the monument and face the hill, look to your left, there is a slight bend, not much (if you stand at the momument and look to your left you can see right down the road) it was around this bend that Collins disapeared and was found later. if you note the posistion of the car on the map, it was at the earth bank beside the car that the first took cover, then Collins moved to the cover of the armourer car, and then left this posistion.

I'll throw in a drawing here that I did a few year back, its not to scale, not at all, but it gives a good idea of the posistions on that evening. I also have a lot of photographs I took of the area 2 year back, I'll try and dig them out too.



1. Drey cart across road (wheel removed to make it difficult to move)
2. Mines
3. Crosley Tender
4. Collins, Leyland Straight 8, open top touring car.
5. Armoured Car
6. Point where Collins was found.
7. Ahalarick bridge
8. Carrols Bridge
Black Square: Monument
10. Laneway used by the IRA

Again, this map is not to scale and may be incorrect, but from going by accounts and such, its more or less it.

CroppyBoy1798

arctic lemur

Yes Collins was shot opposite where the monument stands as the council couldn't give planning permission asit was on a bend. I live near it myself.

tim3115

Thanks CB.

But does the map not contradict what Lemur says? The map shows the shooting of Collins taking place further down the road, and not opposite the monument.

arctic lemur

Yes theres a lane way opposite the monument where you can see all. I'm from Beal na Mblath and thats what I was taught. Im open to correction like!

tim3115

I was there but saw no lane opposite the monument. Do you mean directly across from the momument? As that is just a steep slope with no lane...or so I thought.

DublinWriter

CroppyBoy1798 wrote:

There was also a story I heard once of how after the fighting was over, Collins revolver was left behind (presumably fell out of the holster when he was picked up) and this revolver came into the posession of General O'Duffy, how true that is, I dont know.CroppyBoy1798

I heard a story about a year ago that it was found by a PSNI raid on a house in West Belfast about three years ago. I was told that MC had scratched his name and the year on the wooden butt.

SpitfireIV

tim3115,

There is a laneway which runs parrallel with the road up on the hill across from the monument (as shown on the map), its a good walk down the road and across the little bridge, but you can walk from one bridge right over to the other one. I think the last time I was up there, there was someone starting to build a house up there, just off the lane way (Is that right Lemur?).

Good man DublinWriter, so I wasnt imagining that story then, great, thanks for that.

CroppyBoy

Dummy

I went off searching for a document I had giving details of Emmett Daltons interview a few years after the ambush, but I must have left it in my parents house.

I do know that Daltons revolver was found after the ambush. He had dropped it when escaping from the car. All six chambers were full of live rounds. There was a local priest from your area Artic that wrote about this back in the 60's or 70's. I cannot remember the priests name.

It is also widely known that there was indeed a government enquiry into the ambush. The facts of the enquiry were never disclosed and indeed the files of the enquiry were distroyed in 1932. The Irish Government of the day requested the extradition of McPeake (cannot remember his first name) from Glasgow. He too made a submission to the enquiry. A terrible pity this was lost.

Artic, I have spoken to people in your area who told me that Dev had been seen in the area before the ambush. Have you ever heard stories about this?

Also, Collins had lost his cap during the ambush. Some of the men involved in the ambush and recovered it and later buried it. Have you heard any local stories about this? I am sure modern forensics could use this to give a better description of velocities etc of the bullet and may assist in determining from how far the bullet had travelled.

I had never heard that story of the Police recovering Collins gun. How did you hear this? I would be very interested in following this up.

SpitfireIV

Dummy,

I also heard a story about Collins cap, what I understand is, this too was left behind on the road after the convoy left (along with a shirt collar that may have been pulled off Collins as they tried to pick him up, but I only heard this tale once), the cap was recovered the next day and washed off in the stream that runs by the road, what remains that were left on the road were put into the cap. The FF badge and leather strap was removed and the cap buried, the cap was shortly after dug up and given to a local priest whom then sent it to Dublin. Now, this is what I heard, and maybe its just another tale. The FF badge was allegedly kept by one of those who took part in the ambush it was kept on the fire place, but fell in and was melted, how true is that? I dont know.

There is a cap believed to have been Collins in the Brother Allen Muesum in Dublin (correct me if I'm wrong), but this cap is too small to have been Collins, curiously this cap has the back ripped (to make it look like a bullet had tore through it and a dark red stain on it), some say his IS Collins cap, but Dalton claimed that it was his, that he used to rest Collins head on as they left Beal na mBlath.

Dummy, the machine gunner from the Slieve na Mon was 'Jock' John McPeak, I think the reason he went to Glasgow and was later brought back was because he later deserted to the IRA side and took the Slieve na Mon with him, so naturally they may have sought to use him as a scapegoat to cover there own failure and shame.

He later claimed that the reason he went to the IRA was 'for the love of a woman', I dont see any reason why he would shoot Collins, non of the members of the Free State forces, nor those in the Slieve na Mon ever claimed that McPeak swung the turret right around to where Collins was, besides, the Vickers .303 was most likely jammed at that stage, or if not, at least giving trouble as an in experienced officer had loaded the belts incorrect. It was these lulls in the firing that allowed the IRA men to make there escape, and the reason why Collins left cover as he seen them moving.

All the best,

CroppyBoy

The Lopper

I'm not familiar with the area at all, never been there, just wondering, where was the Béal na mBláth sequence shot in Neil Jordan's film?

SpitfireIV

The Lopper,

I dont know where Neil Jordan shot his Beal na mBlath scene, but it looks NOTHING like the actual Beal na mBlath, I suppose its like everything in that movie.......doesnt bare any resemblance to fact.

Shame that, could have been a good movie, but Neil seemed to have been under the Hollywood spell and aimed it at an American audience rather than providing a good political classic. Someone should make a good movie about Collins, he deserve it, jeez, you could make a whole movie just about the mystery of his death.

Cheers,

CroppyBoy

Dummy

Croppyboy,

I completely agree. The movie really did not bare any resemblance to the man himself or his life. Dev, rightly or wrongly was painted a dark shade of black. Neeson did play a good Collins though.

Maybe sometime in the future and hopefully in my lifetime, someone will make a good movie about the man.

The Lopper

I was thinking that alright. Indeed, it was a bit disappointing in parts. Personally i'd like to see a broader War of Independence movie taking in many different accounts of the fighting, There weren't enough ambushes in Jordan's film, and we didn't get to see the political genius side as well, or the London negotiations

And there needs to be a good movie about 1916 as well.

Dammit where's my camera.....

arctic lemur

Wicklow

tim3115

"I dont know where Neil Jordan shot his Beal na mBlath scene, but it looks NOTHING like the actual Beal na mBlath, I suppose its like everything in that movie.......doesnt bare any resemblance to fact."

Yeah, looks nothing like Béal na mBláth. And why did Broy have that accent? He was an annoying sort of character for me.


CB - Did you locate those actual pictures of the scene you took years ago?

arctic lemur

definately nothing like the real place. i mean theres no white statue on the hill!

barrylyons

if you think of all the theories surrounding the kennedy assisination and they even had that on film , i dont think we will ever know who shot collins,

When I was younger i met the man who as a young man gave collins the act of contrition , he lived nearby . I remember him saying that he thought collins gently sqeezed his hand, and when my dad asked who did he think shot him he smiled and said it was the anti treaty side, he did not know and he was there .

Its funny the way two hats turned up ,both with holes in the back ,

i would imagine with modern forensics they would be able to check them for blood samples and do a dna match .

there is quiet a big rip on the back of the hat in dublin .

My grandad was in frongoch with him and was one of those who was asked to be in the squad but did not want to . apparently my aunts had an autograph book which collins among others signed ,but they loaned it to a neighbour in the 70s and never got it back .

brianthebard

If you're going to vamp a thread this old it had better be with definitive evidence regarding the case! Locked.