Eircom League - Genesis III

[Jackass]

I for one feel the EL has come on leaps and bounds over the past 5 - 10 years, and has commercial value, entertainment value, and much higher standards of players, facilities and expertise.

But we will never be able to compete with the PL in England, especially not with a mundane structure that we have. The Setanta cup was a big success because it was something new, it was exciting, and it had the feel of European football, and a real prize at stake also. And I think that kind of thinking is the way forward. So what can be done?

Well I read a very interesting article by Gerry McDermott (Irish Independent) about Aussie football, and the formats they changed over there to make it unusual and much more exciting, and putting universal structure into their league to make it more competitive and more appealing to the common football fan. Anyway, it got me very excited to see what will happen over the coming days with announcements from the Genesis report, Eircom League, FAI and hopefully over the coming years with developments!

Gerry McDermott - Boot Room wrote:

Some day soon those very busy people in genesis are going to roll out their third report into Irish soccer. Genesis III will be a white paper on the Eircom league, and is expected to outline the path to success on and off the field for domestic football. It will be interesting to see if they will make any comparisons between soccer in Ireland ad in Australia, because experiences "down under" are very similar to those "up here". Eighteen months ago, Australians took a long hard look at their national league, and concluded that all was not well. It was facing intense competition in the domestic market from more dominant codes of football and while they had low television ratings for the domestic game, there was high interest in television coverage in Champions league and premiership soccer. They also had low gates, low revenues and low wages, with many clubs experiencing financial problems. Those same problems are replicated in the Eircom League and when Genesis deliver in the coming days we're going to find out if Irish soccer has the balls to tackle them in the same forthright manner as Australians. They disbanded their domestic flagship, The National Soccer League, and launched the A-League, which kicked off four weeks ago. They have eight clubs, seven of which are based in separate Australian cities, with the other in Auckland, New Zealand. Each team has a squad of 20 players and a salary cap of $1.5m Australian dollars for 19 players, which is around €950,000. The other player is a marquee player who can be paid as much as the club can afford, so Sydney were able to splash out €500,000 on Dwight York, to bring their salary spend to just under €1.5m. They signed an exclusive television deal with a cable sports channel, attracted a blue-chip sponsor in Hyundai, and ran a television commercial aimed at youth in Australia and New Zealand. Their target audiences are the 16 - 24-year-olds, as well as old soccer supporters from the defunct National Soccer League and families. The campaign worked, as the opening weekend saw a cumulative attendance in excess of 70,000 at the four games and although this figure dropped by week four, it was still at 46,605, which represents a average attendance of 11,000 per game and is very much in line with their projections. Here in Ireland, some clubs in the Eircom League Premier Division, some clubs have an annual payroll of between €1m and €2m and are only attracting ten percent of the Australian gate. At the recent "Money, Marketing, and Media" seminar organised by the Eircom League, Professor Bill Gerrard of Leeds University Business School presented the A-League as a case study for the delegates to consider and then made several suggestions. He proposed the introduction of a salary cap in the Eircom League and suggested that the marquee principle could also be used to attract popular veteran Irish stars back home or sign highly skillful players who can pull in the crowds. Although the average weekly attendance of 12,000 is up six percent on last season, it's only a quarter the size of the A-League and it is probably costing more per spectator than Australia. Gerrard suggests the introduction of championship play-offs to make the title race more exciting and increase attendances. The Australians have been radical and innovative in a bid to save their domestic game and the Eircom league may soon find that they have no choice but to follow suit.

So what do you think? Would you like to see domestic football start from scratch? New League, New teams, new structure? How would you feel about your current club being disbanded? Do you think it could ever happen? Would you allow it to? Possibly merge some clubs? And how would you like to see the new format implemented if you do support it?

I’ve got to be honest and say that I think this is exactly what we need to do. I think only 2 Dublin teams (North and South) would focus massive resources onto just 2 teams, create direct rivalry over 2 teams like a Man U. V Man City or Liverpool V Everton as apposed to C. Palace V Arsenal Westh Ham V Chelsea scenario, which makes it much more appealing commercially, and teams can span vast areas of the country to incorporate a large amount of fans who have no representation in Eircom league.

Also it would be great if we could make it an All-Ireland league and incorporate 1 or 2 teams from the north, which will add even more rivalry and spice to the mix.

I think the one of the reasons the Eircom League fails is because there are too many Dublin teams, always moving around, and it alienates the would-be new supporter, and people just don’t identify with the clubs, so generally don’t care. But if you can generate rivalry, people will care, and want to get involved and watch.

We need to pool our resources between far less clubs (10 max) with only 1 league, and make additional funds off-loading all the excess assets. Hopefully make a major project out of it, and get large government backing, build quality facilities. Hopefully be able to attract a new caliber player…who knows?

I think it could be more exciting, more commercial, and potentially, very successful.

KdjaCL

Yes i for one think Pats should merge with Rovers i cant wait to support St Shamrock Athletic, i mean myself and 4000 other pats fans cant wait. Also Rovers fans will take us to their hearts.


Theres a huge thread just below with the same discussion.
Bottom line the EL doesnt need it for a few reasons.

1.top 3 teams playing better football than ever before.
2.top teams getting more in the gate that ever before.
3.Top 3 getting further in Europe than teams in Spl and PL.
4top 4 getting into Setanta and getting closer to real big pay day all ireland league.

The only thing the league needs it better grounds, it used to need more coverage but TG4, setanta ,Ollie Byrne and Roddy Coillins fighting have done more than enough this season to cover that.

kdjac

MrJoeSoap

DubGuy are you an Eircom League fan?

_blank_

Would you like to see domestic football start from scratch?
No

New League, New teams, new structure?
New teams? What happens to Shels then?

How would you feel about your current club being disbanded?
Crap.

Do you think it could ever happen?
I don't see it ever happening

Would you allow it to?
If Shels was disbanded I would probably try to form, or be part of the formation, of something like Football Club United of Manchester, as I would think many supporters of the current eL clubs would. A new League of Ireland with made up clubs would lose the core support of the current league.

Possibly merge some clubs?
You speak about "2 Dublin Clubs, one North, one South". Which in effect means the merging the Shels and Bohs. I could not envisage supporting any club that has anything to do with Bohemians Football Club. "Shelhemians"? "Bohbourne"? "North Dublin FC"? Give me a break. I support Shelbourne FC. No-one else.

Also it would be great if we could make it an All-Ireland league and incorporate 1 or 2 teams from the north, which will add even more rivalry and spice to the mix.
I'd like to see this. Possibly a 16 team Premier League, but the logistics of this need to be sorted out.

DubGuy wrote:

I think the one of the reasons the Eircom League fails is because there are too many Dublin teams, always moving around, and it alienates the would-be new supporter, and people just don’t identify with the clubs, so generally don’t care. But if you can generate rivalry, people will care, and want to get involved and watch.

Bohs play in Dalymount.
Shels play in Tolka Park.
Pats play in The Stadium of Light :eek:
UCD play in Belfield.
Rovers are homeless, for the time being.
Dublin City are in the First this season.

Too many Dublin teams, you say. Well, the teams that are playing in the Premier and First division are there on merit. What do you propose, a limit on the amount of teams from any particular region from getting promotion, or something even more sinister in my eyes, no relegation from the top division, with only 10 teams playing for the league title year in year out?

DubGuy wrote:

We need to pool our resources between far less clubs (10 max) with only 1 league, and make additional funds off-loading all the excess assets. Hopefully make a major project out of it, and get large government backing, build quality facilities. Hopefully be able to attract a new caliber player…who knows?

We should have only ten clubs in the country, have them play each other every season, with no room for another club to make any headway?

If we go down that route, as they have done with the Australian A-League, then the only calibre of player attracted will be the likes of Dwight Yorke, after an easy pay cheque.

KdjaCL

seansouth wrote:

Shelhemians

I like it quite catchy.


kdjac

soma

That's interesting that one of the teams in the Oz league is from New Zealand..?
The reason I always heard that we couldnt have an All-Ireland league was cos that would mean we could also only field one national team for the north and south i.e. "Ireland".

So what gives..? Obviously both Australia & New Zealand still have their own national teams, yet at least some of their teams share a league.

Pigman II

It's the NASL all over again http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Soccer_League and we all know what a long term success that was.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The average Irish punter doesn't care about quality, star-power or success,all he's after is an 'occasion'. If you can fill the grounds every week and have a great athmosphere in the stands then he'll be desperate to come along and watch any old muck.

Personaly I applaud the english football league who are now allowing kids in free to matches if accompanied by an adult. The idea over there is just to 'get them young' and make a life long fan out of them but I think it could work two-fold for the EL clubs as it'd fill up some of those empty seats that are subconciously telling punters who watch games on tv "look ,nobodys here! this league is total rubbish"

KdjaCL

Pigman II wrote:

Personaly I applaud the english football league who are now allowing kids in free to matches if accompanied by an adult. This is a proposal that the EL clubs should seriously consider in order to fill all those empty seats and

Thats an on/ off thing, should be every week but Pats for one would have it one week but not another.

kdjac

Benedict XVI

Pigman II wrote:

It's the NASL all over again http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Soccer_League and we all know what a long term success that was

The NASL went out of business 21 years ago and as the Wikipedia article says the current MSL has learnt from it's mistakes and has more relastic plans for the future.
I'd imagine the at A-League are looking at how MSL do things rather than how the NASL did things.

Pigman II

Benedict XVI wrote:

The NASL went out of business 21 years ago and as the Wikipedia article says the current MSL has learnt from it's mistakes and has more relastic plans for the future.
I'd imagine the at A-League are looking at how MSL do things rather than how the NASL did things.

It's the same basic premise tho. In my opinion over a long term you cannot just package football and sell to the public like a trip to the cinema.

What the EL have to do is ask people who go to internationals or GAA championship matches WHY they go and WHAT makes these particular events important to them. They should then replicate this experience rather than just trying to follow various football models. It's an Irish solution for an Irish problem.

soma

Pigman II wrote:

What the EL have to do is ask people who go to internationals or GAA championship matches WHY they go and WHAT makes these particular events important to them.

Yeah the "event" thing is a good point - tickets are hard to come by for GAA All-Ireland games but then the attendance at a GAA league game is often dire. The equivalent scenario in England would be the FA Cup games are soldout but no one turns up to watch the premiership.

Maybe the people in this country are too into the instant-gratification of bigger events.

Kingp35

soma wrote:

Yeah the "event" thing is a good point - tickets are hard to come by for GAA All-Ireland games but then the attendance at a GAA league game is often dire. The equivalent scenario in England would be the FA Cup games are soldout but no one turns up to watch the premiership.

This depends entirely on the county involved. Dublin sell out all their league games pretty much

Töpher

It'd drive me for one (and I'm sure most other passionate supporters) away from the league. I support Shelbourne, and noone else. Even our national team means nothing to me in comparisson to Shelbourne.

Mergers would suck. Having recently moved to Wicklow I still make sure I attend every single home game, and as many away as I possibly can. I can't see myself making that effort for North Dublin FC

As for too many teams coming from Dublin, thats only really an issue because the league is only 12 teams.

London:
Arsenal
Tottenham
Fulham
Charlton
West Ham
Chelsea

Thats 6/20 coming from one city. Noone complains about that.

Dublin:
Shelbourne
Bohemians
UCD
St Pats
Rovers

Thats 5/12, and is apparently one of the reasons our league is destined to an eternity of mediocrity? Christ, give me Rovers over Monaghan Utd any day! It's all about the football.

MrJoeSoap

This thread and the "How to Improve the Eircom League" thread has got me thinking.

Thinking so much, in fact, that I completely missed the point.

All that needs to be done right now is that people need to start going to games. End of story. The people who come on here and criticise and come up with all this "merger" gibberish need to just go to games and enjoy the football.

Starting tonight. See Gimmicks thread for your nearest league/cup game.

There are NO excuses for not supporting your local club.

Töpher

MrJoeSoap wrote:

This thread and the "How to Improve the Eircom League" thread has got me thinking.

Thinking so much, in fact, that I completely missed the point.

All that needs to be done right now is that people need to start going to games. End of story. The people who come on here and criticise and come up with all this "merger" gibberish need to just go to games and enjoy the football.

Starting tonight. See Gimmicks thread for your nearest league/cup game.

There are NO excuses for not supporting your local club.

^^

[Jackass]

KdjaC wrote:

Yes I for one think Pats should merge with Rovers I can’t wait to support St Shamrock Athletic, I mean myself and 4000 other pats fans cant wait. Also Rovers fans will take us to their hearts.

Well I doubt that's exactly how it would be done All clubs would be disbanded, (using Dublin as a example) and the greatest assets from all clubs would be used to form a North and South team...I have no idea what they would be called, but does it make a difference? They would have no affiliation to any of the old clubs....

KdjaC wrote:

3.Top 3 getting further in europe than teams in Spl and PL.

Cork have had a great year, Shels did last year, EL have had excellent runs in Europe in recent years.... but by PL and SPL standards they have been far from spectacular.... especially from teams that are national champions. (well not yet for cork. )

KdjaC wrote:

1.top 3 teams playing better football than ever before.

True, I couldn't agree more, and the progress being made has been very impressive.... but again, by whose standards? Because for EL it's excellent, but by SPL or even league 1 in England, nothing spectacular....

KdjaC wrote:

2.top teams getting more in the gate that ever before.

Exactly, and did you notice that with the small amounts of success in Europe, and the increased exposure of the league commercially with TV, and Setanta and so on, the dramatic effect it has had?

Can you imagine how much more attendances would be at a new, specifically marketed league, which loses the reputation of the LOI (and if you don't agree it has a terrible reputation with the majority of Irish soccer fans you're in denial), and has direct rivalries with bigger teams, with better players, (because their would be less teams, so only the best players from EL would still be around, and grouped together), far more money, every fan in the country has a team to support in the top league….this league would have very large commercial and market exposure...more than the EL has had in the last 10 years combined, and far better quality on the pitch.

KdjaC wrote:

4top 4 getting into Setanta and getting closer to real big pay day all Ireland league.

Do you have any idea the potential revenue and earnings the launch of a new "super league" would have? Sure it's all marketing, but clearly it works, and, as in Australia, big sponsors would come forward, triple the crowds would arrive at games, lots of assets can be off loaded, setanta cup will still be there, probably more success in Europe, much bigger domestic prize money, far less waists of resources on wages etc., much smaller squad sizes, much more quality...Plus the novelty and “buzz” factor would be a big pay day…Also I’m sure an all Ireland league would be a fundamental part of any new League that would be launched…so the pay day would still be there, and that would be another added attraction.

A new league would also probably receive large government funding as a sports development project. That could possibly be the biggest payday of all.

Financially there’s no comparison…a new league clearly would be far more commercially viable, and would have far less expenses, far more income, and far better quality.

KdjaC wrote:

The only thing the league needs it better grounds, it used to need more coverage but TG4, setanta ,Ollie Byrne and Roddy Coillins fighting have done more than enough this season to cover that.
kdjac

The only thing?
I could show you 50 Man Yoo fans in Ireland for every EL fan (of any club) you could show me...if not more...I can think of another thing it needs...supporters...

The bottom line is that the EL as it stands will never be anything more than a mickey mouse league, whether we are willing to admit it or not.... half the clubs are in financial crisis...half the clubs have little or no fan base what so ever, there are only 4 teams max who are playing anything that can be described as football, hundreds of thousands of euros are being waisted on interest, wages, rents, maintenance of grounds that would make more sense to have apartment blocks on them, there's far too many useless players in the league, squad sizes are ridiculous, and there are far to many clubs, and the first division is absolutely pointless.

Hypothetical scenario: you have a country with 1 million population...so you make a football league...do you make a league of 100 teams of every small town you can find, spanning populations of 10,000 per team? Or do you make a football league of 10 teams spanning a population of 100,000 people per team? I think the second idea has a much better chance of success.

Half the population has no representation in EL, and as it stands the league isn't very new comer friendly.... look at the comments about "Bandwagon supporters" in the improving EL thread...

There has to be a bandwagon to jump on in the first place....

And long time supporters seem to have a chip on their shoulder about new supporters to the league…talk about biting off your nose to spite your face….

I understand your commitment to your club, and I have absolute admiration for it, but we have to think of the big picture here…But maybe you would just prefer to keep your team and league as it is, and hope somehow the EL can sustain itself long enough until it can make much bigger inroads and progress. I can understand that, because obviously there is a lot of passion involved, and I completely respect that.

But for me, I can never see that happening, and a successful national league that can compete in Europe is an absolute dream for me, many EL supporters and Irish people in general, I don’t think we can look at it as individual teams, but as a league as a whole.

Recent runs have shown that any success of Irish teams in Europe, and the whole country gets behind them. Remember Lansdowne road? How many showed up to support Shels? 26,000 or something…that shows people want to have something to support...but the EL just dosen’t offer them that.

I think this is our best chance of achieving it…Even if it means forgetting everything that’s gone before and starting again.

MrJoeSoap wrote:

DubGuy are you an Eircom League fan?

I follow it yes, but I know it could be so much better....

The EL as it stands is a lost cause as far as I'm concerned...if it never changes, I'll still support it because it's my national league, but I hope it does...I think it has the potential with a complete re-vamp to rival the SPL in the foreseeable future.

sorry about the really long post...but that's pretty much my entire opinion on the matter.

KdjaCL

The only thing?
I could show you 50 Man Yoo fans in Ireland for every EL fan (of any club) you could show me...if not more...I can think of another thing it needs...supporters.

Nice post but again so far off the mark its funny, who in their right mind would want those fans at their grounds, Man Utd fans from manchester are embarassed by them, we would be too.

You base standards on Spl or PL or Div1, ehh its the EL comparing to anything other is irrelevant. The only thing the league needs is better grounds, there will be **** teams **** games **** attds. Cork got more at home last week then Juventus did during the week.

Every league has **** teams **** games **** attd only non footballing nations resort to MLS style leagues siomply because they dont have the grassroot system in place to create professional footballers. In the US and AUS there is no decent schoolboy system and as football is fairly new to them the clubs dont have an identity with the areas theyin or the fans who support them.

Your idea to kill EL clubs and replace them would be akin to asking Wimbledon back over, who would support them?

The barstoolers over here are an embarrassemtn to football and as seen below in my signature they are summed up perfectly by a fellow pats fan.



kdjac

Töpher

DubGuy wrote:

True, I couldn't agree more, and the progress being made has been very impressive.... but again, by whose standards? Because for EL it's excellent, but by SPL or even league 1 in England, nothing spectacular....

I had to stop reading here...! Thats unbelievable! League 1?! Now I know you're taking the piss.

I swallowed judgement on the SPL comment as there's what, 3 good teams in Scotland? Most of the rest could be considered average at best in EL terms, but there always looks to be huge crowds, which in turn make things (such as the SPL itself) look better. Take the Hibernian for example, hardly a poor team by SPL standards, and were 3-0 down at half time to Cork recently, and only clawed back when Cork subbed their entire team with reserve players. This team then went on to beat Rangers 3-0 at Ibrox. But League 1? Are you serious?

Think back to mid 2003 when Leeds were in the premiership. Shelbourne beat them 2-0 in Tolka, all be it a friendly, but the Leeds team was packed with first teamers. We've progressed considerably since then, but are nowt compared to League 1?

Now they're just examples, but sheesh!

I would expect any of our top 3 sides to comfortably be able to hold a top half finish in the Championship. Perhaps fighting it out just under the play-offs. Thats my take on it anyways.

MrJoeSoap

DubGuy wrote:

Remember Lansdowne road? How many showed up to support Shels? 26,000 or something…that shows people want to have something to support...but the EL just dosen’t offer them that.

No, what that shows is that people are glory hunting and only willing to hop on bandwagons when Irish clubs are succesful.

I'd rather keep my league as it is than have 15,000 people show up to see Dublin North and Dublin South battle it out in the Irish Superleague.

People DO have something to support. What is stopping any soccer fan in Dublin from going to the next home game in Richmond Park, Tolka Park, Dalymount Park etc...? Nothing. Except themselves and their commitment to soccer overseas, perhaps.

For the cost of travelling to ONE Man Utd game (I wouldn't know for sure but I would assume €400 all in?) any Irish person could have a season ticket to an Irish club and pay for their transport to every home game.

Honestly, are people that ignorant and stupid to go to see a Manchester United game, and fund those little leprechauns in suits to spend €30million on the next 18 year old from Merseyside, when there is such quality right here on our doorsteps?

Give me Wes Houlihan over Wayne Rooney ANY DAY.

The Rooster

Pigman II is totally right in that attendances will never rise by much unless you give people an "occasion". The idea floated of abandoning the league and creating all the new teams would generate a huge amount of publicity and comment and there is no doubt it would produce sell-out crowds. Would the sell out crowd phenoman last 1 week, 1 month, 1 season, 10 seasons? Clearly nobody knows - those who agree with the idea would say long term, those who don't would say short term.

But of course it'll never happen. The clubs and existing fans would never let it happen. Better the status quo, even if it would produce a far better league scene.

If there was a Dublin North team, or a Fingal team founded in place of the existing teams, I would certainly go to their games.

I'm a big sports fan. Pretty much anything and everything. I will watch and support Cork and Shels when their European games are on TV, but I've never been to an Eircom League game, and dont really intend to go. Mainly because even though there's so many teams in Dublin, I've no team to support. To be honest I'd be hard pushed to tell you what localities the current teams are supposed to represent. I've 15 or so male friends, all sports fans, all support a team across the water, 7 or 8 into GAA, all take an interest in many sports, especially where there's an Irish connection. None go to Eircom league games. They'd all be either from Fingal, Dublin North East (Raheny, Killester, Sutton) and Dublin West (Blanch, Castleknock, Lucan). Cant speak for them, but I'd guess like me they've never had a reason to go or a team to support. Or who would be the local team for people in these areas?

[Jackass]

Einst&#252 wrote: »

I had to stop reading here...! Thats unbelievable! League 1?! Now I know you're taking the piss.....I would expect any of our top 3 sides to comfortably be able to hold a top half finish in the Championship. Perhaps fighting it out just under the play-offs. Thats my take on it anyways.

Ok, fair enough that was a bit of an exateration...But EL teams pushing for a place in Premiership play-offs? That's a bit far fetched too in fairness

KdjaC wrote:

3.Top 3 getting further in Europe than teams in Spl and PL.

KdjaC wrote:

You base standards on Spl or PL or Div1, ehh its the EL comparing to anything other is irrelevant.

I was only making comparisons because you were...

MrJoeSoap wrote:

What is stopping any soccer fan in Dublin from going to the next home game in Richmond Park, Tolka Park, Dalymount Park etc...? Nothing. Except themselves and their commitment to soccer overseas, perhaps.

Nothing, I completely agree...but short of going around to 10,000 homes and dragging people out kicking and screaming, I don't think a decent crowd will ever come.

MrJoeSoap wrote:

For the cost of travelling to ONE Man Utd game (I wouldn't know for sure but I would assume €400 all in?) any Irish person could have a season ticket to an Irish club and pay for their transport to every home game.

Honestly, are people that ignorant and stupid to go to see a Manchester United game, and fund those little leprechauns in suits to spend €30million on the next 18 year old from Merseyside, when there is such quality right here on our doorsteps?

Again, I completely agree...that irritates the hell out of me aswell. I can never understand how people from Dublin refer to Liverpool as "we", and defend their players as though their bloody related to the whole team, and half of these people have never even been to Liverpool, and yet throw money at them in jersey's etc. etc.

These same people have the nerve to laugh at their own leauge, and wouldn't spend a penny on a team from their home town....but that's EL, and i can't see that ever changing if things stay the same...That's one of the main reasons I want a change.

KdjaC wrote:

Every league has **** teams **** games **** attd only non footballing nations resort to MLS style leagues siomply because they dont have the grassroot system in place to create professional footballers. In the US and AUS there is no decent schoolboy system and as football is fairly new to them the clubs dont have an identity with the areas theyin or the fans who support them.

Well we don't have the grass rootsor schoolboy level either as far as EL is concernd, we have decent sides developing players like Belvedere, Cherry Orchard, but any quality players have no intention of playing EL, and pretty much all of our professional players are developed in acadamys in the UK. That's why all our players with talent go to the UK and take their chances there...some of them play in obscurity in middle to low leagues, some of them pack it in and get a job, some of them make it, and some of them come home to EL after failing in UK...

Do we want to be a reject league or give home grown talent a serious option to stay here and get to play in a much higher standard league with real prospects in Europe, money and facilities...

Obviously I completely understand where you are all coming from, and it would be a terrible shame to see the end of great clubs like Shels, Bohs, Cork, Rovers (who are on the ropes as it is), especially when the league is finally starting to make a bit of progress...but it'll never be a decent league by European standards, it'll never attract players of top quality (with the rare exception), the majority of the clubs are a absolute sham...so how are we supposed to develop clubs that can compete in that enviornment playing teams like that week in week out?

At the end of the day, isn't that we would all love to see happen? I completely respect the tradition and the passion that goes along with the EL, but I've only got the interest of Irish football and the national league at heart, and to achieve what we want to achieve means sacrafices will have to be made...but in the long run, this is what would be best for Irish football.

KdjaCL

DubGuy wrote:

Belvedere, Cherry Orchard,

How odd Pats have 3 on their books and recently sold an Ex Cherrier player for 40k.

And to sum it up, ireland has a lot of football fans some like armchairs, some like barstools, some like being there and some like travelling to Uk to watch.

Of the 4 types there are 3 that dont go to EL and Rooster altho i doubt he meant it summed it up perfectly.

but I've never been to an Eircom League game, and dont really intend to go.

Even if you made the mad league idea you still have this attitude to overcome plus the its **** attitude and the "do i have to leave the armchair/pub to watch it" attitude.

The league has it good and bad points like all leagues do but ireland is the only country to have such a large home support for away teams, thus they base that standard of football as the "norm" and anything else is not good enough to leave armchair/pub to watch.

Personally i would be embarassed if these fans started going to Pats games, im glad all the new fans are Shels fans. They are clueless people who as Pigman points out only there for the occasion.
Also always the ones who start these EL needs drastic makeover threads too...no offence.


kdjac

[Jackass]

KdjaC wrote:

How odd Pats have 3 on their books and recently sold an Ex Cherrier player for 40k.

Really? And how many do they have who came back from the UK, or trained in UK academys?

KdjaC wrote:

Rooster altho i doubt he meant it summed it up perfectly...Even if you made the mad league idea you still have this attitude to overcome plus the its **** attitude and the "do i have to leave the armchair/pub to watch it" attitude.

But in fairness he also said:

The Rooster wrote:

If there was a Dublin North team, or a Fingal team founded in place of the existing teams, I would certainly go to their games.

And that's exactly what the new league would do....tap into a massive wealth of new fans.

The Rooster wrote:

I've never been to an Eircom League game, and dont really intend to go. Mainly because even though there's so many teams in Dublin, I've no team to support. To be honest I'd be hard pushed to tell you what localities the current teams are supposed to represent.

That's exactly what I was talking about, with the EL alienating fans...a simple north south divide gives clear teams, and covers every single soccer fan in the city.

KdjaC wrote:

Personally i would be embarassed if these fans started going to Pats games, im glad all the new fans are Shels fans. They are clueless people who as Pigman points out only there for the occasion.
Also always the ones who start these EL needs drastic makeover threads too...no offence.

Well it was ony a matter of time before you played that card.... You know you can't have your cake and eat it!

You (EL supporters in general) complaining about people not comeing out, going to games, and support the teams...and then when they show up, they're clueless people who are only glory hunters....I may only be around for a few years, but I started going to lots of games, which has gradually declined over time becasue of that exact attitude on the terraces... It was what I was talking about before, biting off your nose to spite your face. :rolleyes:

And those very same fans must take a certain amount of the blame for the failure of the league they hold so dear, for making new fans feel so unwelcome.

Do you think the EL is a league you can keep to yourself? No, It's the national league...it belongs to all of us...and if the majority of footy fans in the country have absolutely no interest, then there is something fundamentally wrong.

To the majority of Irish fans, they would want a sucsessfull league by european standards, and the development of the national game. It's much bigger than any indivdual club, and much bigger than a minority of football supporters in this country who follow EL...

I believe even if all the EL supporters were to boycott a new league, it would still have better attendances, better quality players, better facilitys, more money, and better results on the pitch, which is what it's all about at the end of the day.

If you want a crowd full of life long supporters, and fully educated and knowledgable supporters you're fooling yourself, because no team worth a damn in any top level of football has that...the "clueless" people are part of sucsess... Do you want sucsess? Or do you want a mickey mouse league perminantly?

Your sig sais Brian Kerr has been lumped with mediocer players or something along those lines...so why don't you support giving him a decent league to choose players from?

I just think you have your own agenda...save St.Pats at all costs...even if that cost is the national game, and the national league...it's a very small minded outlook, and very selfish motivations....

Im not saying Pats and Shels and so on have to be disbanded...but just not as our national leauge...why not have some sort of seperate leauge those teams can compete? possibly amuture league as the resources aren't there for professional...but it would mean different players because the top ones would play in a new national league...but i presume your love is not for the players, but for the club...and that would still exist..you could still go to the games...they would still play the same opposition...it could be exactly the same league format...it just wouldn't be the national league...but compromise must be made if you want a great league.

KdjaCL

DubGuy wrote:

To the majority of Irish fans,

Who support English clubs, thats not going to change ever. Thinking it may is wishful. Blaming the EL clubs for not being in your area well...honestly what i can say to that.

and if the majority of footy fans in the country have absolutely no interest, then there is something fundamentally wrong.

With the league or with the fans?

I cba with these fans who sit on barstools supporting Liverpool and saying how them winning CL was best night of their lives. Honestly good for them ,i prefer to see my team play week in week out, just sadly my team are in ireland Which is wrong to the majority of irish fans. You point out about national leagues yet how many of these fans that you would like to attract to the league have actually been to a game? Football fans go to games simple as that, if you dont go to your teams games your not a fan imo. So you want to attract people who dont even support their own teams to the National league. Bugger that Man Utd can have them. No way would any fan wat to see gimps like that supporting their team, they are 1st to boo and 1st to disappear soon as results go bad.

Your entire point here is that the league has problems yet 5 people have posted in this thread ,all 5 who actually support the EL and go to the games and say its doesnt have problems to the extent you think. The solution is simple better grounds nothing else is needed only for people to be able to enjoy football in a comfortable surrounding. No splitting of teams merging or other ludicrous ideas. Just for someone to pay a tenner and get a seat in a covered stand.

Kdjac

MrJoeSoap

The Rooster wrote:

(Blanch, Castleknock, Lucan)... who would be the local team for people in these areas?

Shels, Bohs or Pats? Its not exactly inconvenient in fairness. If they can't drive, theres a train that goes from Ashtown, Castleknock, Coolmine, Clonsilla, Leixlip and Maynooth. Only €3.40 return, 10 minute walk to Tolka from the train station, 15 minutes to Dalyer. Also, the 38 bus route goes by it, and the 39 goes close. If they can drive, theres not really an excuse other than just not wanting to support the league for whatever reason. Richmond Park is only a few minutes of a drive from Lucan by the Strawberry Beds and through Chapelizod.

If you live in Dublin, there is a team nearby or within public transport distance, its usually as simple as that (unless you live in Tallaght ). Einsturzende travels from Bray ffs.

applehunter

The Rooster wrote:

Pigman II is totally right in that attendances will never rise by much unless you give people an "occasion". The idea floated of abandoning the league and creating all the new teams would generate a huge amount of publicity and comment and there is no doubt it would produce sell-out crowds. Would the sell out crowd phenoman last 1 week, 1 month, 1 season, 10 seasons? Clearly nobody knows - those who agree with the idea would say long term, those who don't would say short term.

But of course it'll never happen. The clubs and existing fans would never let it happen. Better the status quo, even if it would produce a far better league scene.

If there was a Dublin North team, or a Fingal team founded in place of the existing teams, I would certainly go to their games.

I'm a big sports fan. Pretty much anything and everything. I will watch and support Cork and Shels when their European games are on TV, but I've never been to an Eircom League game, and dont really intend to go. Mainly because even though there's so many teams in Dublin, I've no team to support. To be honest I'd be hard pushed to tell you what localities the current teams are supposed to represent. I've 15 or so male friends, all sports fans, all support a team across the water, 7 or 8 into GAA, all take an interest in many sports, especially where there's an Irish connection. None go to Eircom league games. They'd all be either from Fingal, Dublin North East (Raheny, Killester, Sutton) and Dublin West (Blanch, Castleknock, Lucan). Cant speak for them, but I'd guess like me they've never had a reason to go or a team to support. Or who would be the local team for people in these areas?

I don't know enough of the geography of Dublin to make a fair comment.

I will say is that these 15 male friends, did their location in Dublin make a difference to their support for clubs accross the water?

MrJoeSoap

applehunter wrote:

...did their location in Dublin make a difference to their support for clubs accross the water?

Zam!

Töpher

MrJoeSoap wrote:

If you live in Dublin, there is a team nearby or within public transport distance, its usually as simple as that (unless you live in Tallaght ). Einsturzende travels from Bray ffs.

Zing! And its easy too! Even Lisenhall won't stop me Anyone who says otherwise is just making excuses, I'd imagine the truth of the matter is they prefer the comfort of their pub stools/armchairs and will go to great efforts explaining why they don't go to games, but will never make the small effort to go to games!

Perhaps its just me, but football is a passionate game, but there's nothing passionate about Sky Sports or the way they present the game. Give me a cold terrace in the wind and rain with my heart going 90MPH for hours on end, living, breathing and loving every moment, good or bad, over a barstool surrounded by people who believe they love the sport yet the closest they get to actually supporting, in the true sense of the word, the game at any level is assisting towards the monthly rental of their local's Sky digital package. But maybe I'm just nuts!

MrJoeSoap

Einst&#252 wrote: »

But maybe I'm just nuts!

Yep, totally nuts*.




*The right kind of nuts though.

TheDoc

Stopped reading after first post. Eircom league ahsnt really come on. Maybe because I never got into it. But its rarely on TV, the coverage is terrible. The match ticket prices are cheap but I'm sorry I went to one match and felt like I sohuld be paid to watch it. Terrible quality of football.

Irish football will never, not for this century, ever come on par with any other league in europe because simply our players just go to england, simple as that. The only country in probably the world where our good players simply go straight to another english club. I know from personal experience and friends experience,that playing for Shelbourne and Bohs you go to trials for english clubs ebfore you even get a notic in the first team= /

And any match I've watched on TV has had like 1 camera at it, and it just looks terrible, Sunday league football.I'd love to be able to support an irish team. I support Leeds because they had and still do have a very strong irish core in their team. But irish football in EL is the pits and anyone who says different is just letting passion emerge over intellegence.

TheDoc

I think the most saddening thing of all is that all our international players come from The Permiership or England, and the one time we tried an irish league player, it was a disaster and we have enver seen of him again.

To make the EL any use what so ever you need good players and to make a campaign that is attractive to young people. In my group of 20 friends 2-4 guys support EL teams, bout 1 is a big fan who can name like all his teams players.

But I think the big problem is that the EL has just poor players. There is no like say prestige, any Sunday league team can feel they can beat a EL team. I personally at my elvel have played and beaten teams like Shells,Bohs,Pats. Although its not like senior level there is no fear when you play them.........not as much a fear as when i played USA u-15 and numerous english teams on tour.

Töpher

[DM]-TheDOC- wrote:

I think the most saddening thing of all is that all our international players come from The Permiership or England, and the one time we tried an irish league player, it was a disaster and we have enver seen of him again.

To make the EL any use what so ever you need good players and to make a campaign that is attractive to young people. In my group of 20 friends 2-4 guys support EL teams, bout 1 is a big fan who can name like all his teams players.

But I think the big problem is that the EL has just poor players. There is no like say prestige, any Sunday league team can feel they can beat a EL team. I personally at my elvel have played and beaten teams like Shells,Bohs,Pats. Although its not like senior level there is no fear when you play them.........not as much a fear as when i played USA u-15 and numerous english teams on tour.

Now we're getting into EL fans have no intelligence (as implied by your first post)??

There is a game on live most fortnights at the moment, thats more regular than ever before, and there's usually about 3 cameras. Admittedly its not the 756 multi viewing angles Sky have, but there's not the funding for that.

Shelbourne for example currently have 3 players with Irish international honours, and another 1 who will no doubt soon be rewarded, having been on the bench before.

Try telling anyone who's watched Liam Kearney, Wes Hoolihan, George O'Callaghan, Joey Ndo (26 Cameroon caps ffs! ), Keith Fahey, to name but a few, that they're poor players and you'll look like an idiot! As was already pointed out, Wes Hoolihan was so good Deportivo had to make a substitution with the specific puropse of man marking him! That didn't even happen against Dinamo Bucharest for Everton. Or for Celtic versus Artmedia.

MrJoeSoap

[DM]-TheDOC- wrote:

and the one time we tried an irish league player, it was a disaster and we have enver seen of him again.

But I think the big problem is that the EL has just poor players. There is no like say prestige, any Sunday league team can feel they can beat a EL team. I personally at my elvel have played and beaten teams like Shells,Bohs,Pats.

Bull and bull. End of. The last time Bohs played St. Mochtas (my local team) in a friendly, they lost 10-0 (Derek Swan bagged 5). And that was before the league turned professional.

To say a Sunday League team could challenge a team like Shels with two players with Irish caps, a Cameroonian international (who has made the bench for most of the season) and plenty of other quality is ridiculous.

I don't really know why I'm arguing this. I wonder would these Sunday league teams hold Deportivo to a draw or knock Djurgardens out of the Uefa Cup?

To be honest, as much as this league needs fans, I'd actually prefer if attitudes like yours stayed away from the EL. Which suits us both, I reckon.

Slash/ED

[DM]-TheDOC- wrote:

Stopped reading after first post. Eircom league ahsnt really come on. Maybe because I never got into it. But its rarely on TV, the coverage is terrible. The match ticket prices are cheap but I'm sorry I went to one match and felt like I sohuld be paid to watch it. Terrible quality of football.

Irish football will never, not for this century, ever come on par with any other league in europe because simply our players just go to england, simple as that. The only country in probably the world where our good players simply go straight to another english club. I know from personal experience and friends experience,that playing for Shelbourne and Bohs you go to trials for english clubs ebfore you even get a notic in the first team= /

And any match I've watched on TV has had like 1 camera at it, and it just looks terrible, Sunday league football.I'd love to be able to support an irish team. I support Leeds because they had and still do have a very strong irish core in their team. But irish football in EL is the pits and anyone who says different is just letting passion emerge over intellegence.

You people are suggesting I give up my team so clowns like him have a tailor made league 'worthy' of their support?

Simply not going to happen.

As for Rooster, who said he'd support a ready made Fingal team. What about when Shels move to Fingal as they will do in a few years?

Big Ears

I feel like going on a rant but il just stick to this:

If you are one of those complaining about the English League at the moment , try and get to your nearest LOI club for a game if possible . Its not that expensive and if you live in Dublin there will be a club nearish to you . If you live in Tipp , Clare , Mayo , many others then its best just to watch the league on tv and pick a team to support and try and get to a few of their games . (of course if you already follow the league ignore this)

Any reforms that happen in Ireland regarding the league should either be about including Northern Ireland in an All-Ireland League , changing the amount of teams in the Premier and first divisions or form new clubs in areas far from any other EL club but could generate good crowds .

applehunter

The Genesis report should be interesting reading.

Some of the suggestions about disbanding teams etc. are unlikely to be made.

I can see somthing like the progress The Bord na gCon re faciliites being mentioned. Maybe groundsharing.

More involvement within the community and more interaction between the senior clubs and junior clubs.

Professional Administraion is definately a priority also.

Nothing we dont know already but it will be good to have a guideline for the future.

Töpher

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Bull and bull. End of. The last time Bohs played St. Mochtas (my local team) in a friendly, they lost 10-0 (Derek Swan bagged 5). And that was before the league turned professional.

To say a Sunday League team could challenge a team like Shels with two players with Irish caps, a Cameroonian international (who has made the bench for most of the season) and plenty of other quality is ridiculous.

I don't really know why I'm arguing this. I wonder would these Sunday league teams hold Deportivo to a draw or knock Djurgardens out of the Uefa Cup?

To be honest, as much as this league needs fans, I'd actually prefer if attitudes like yours stayed away from the EL. Which suits us both, I reckon.

3 Irish caps!

Ireland:
8 - Alan Moore
1 - Glen Crowe
1 - Jason Byrne
0 - Weso Hoolihan, but he's been on the bench, and will hopefulyl get his chance!

Cameroon:
26 - Joey Ndo

MrJoeSoap

My apologies! Moore Moore Moore has been so scarce this season I forgot all about him!

gimmick

Elite premier division is proposed
Emmet Malone Soccer Correspondent

National League: A return to a 10-team premier division in an expanded national league, radically changed management structures and ground-sharing deals by Dublin's four leading clubs are among the recommendations - to be made public today - made by Genesis for the revitalisation of the Eircom League.

The Scottish consultants yesterday delivered their preliminary recommendations to club representatives in Dublin, where officials were told an "elite" 10-team division should be established with two regionalised groups of 10 operating underneath it.

The move would mean an expansion of the league from 22 to 30 teams, although it is envisaged some of the new entrants could be representative sides such as the Mayo and Kerry district league teams that have been competing in the League Cup by invitation for several years.

It is anticipated the structure would result in a largely professional premier division and a mixture of semi-professional and amateur teams in the regional divisions.

This may cause resistance amongst clubs who would fear missing the initial cut and then struggling to catch up on those clubs who received more substantial funding as a result of being a part of the new leading group from the outset.

Promotion and relegation would probably be restricted so as to allow teams in the top flight to generate long-term investment but the precise mechanisms have not been worked out.

In addition to the three senior divisions, the current under-21 league and a new under-18 league would both be run on the basis of geographical groupings.

Clubs wishing to compete in the league would have to sign up to participation agreements which, it is envisaged, would be used to further raise standards and improve the image of the game. Minimum levels of investment in facilities, a wage "policy" likely to effectively amount to a cap on the percentage of turnover that could be paid to players and various other development issues would be covered in the agreement, which would require a good deal more than the present licensing system.

In return, clubs could benefit from improved central marketing and more effectively targeted investment of public and FAI funds. On this latter point, Genesis officials told those attending yesterday's meeting at the Green Isle Hotel that clubs serving large population centres would be likely to receive priority.

It was pointed out, however, there would be a reluctance to substantially fund the development of four stadiums for the main clubs and there would be considerable pressure on the clubs to come to ground-sharing deals, which would be likely, if the resistance of club officials and their supporters could be overcome, to yield just one stadium on each side of the river.

The report recommends, as the previous Genesis report did, the streamlining of management structures at the top, with the current 22-club management committee being replaced by a group of seven or eight, only half of whom would be elected club officials. The rest of the places on this group would go to full-time league or FAI officers, marketing executives and, it is envisaged, a representative of the league's sponsors.

Not surprisingly, there is strong support for the idea of a merger between the league and the association.

Further discussions on the document will take place today with representatives of the clubs, sponsoring companies and media, amongst others, and FAI officials say the feedback will be taken into account before a final list of proposals is drawn up.

Waterford United officials, meanwhile, have dismissed reports Pat Dolan is set to take over from Brendan Rea as manager of the struggling premier club. "There's absolutely no truth in it whatsoever," said director Martin Colbert yesterday.


© The Irish Times

Töpher

I think he's been struggling with various injuries, quality player when he has the motivation, so fingers crossed we'll see some of his skill next season again, if not before this season ends!

Reading the FAI Press release, it does seem to make alot of sense. Although I would be against ground-sharing, if it helps Shelbourne's future, I'll be happy. The restructuing of the first division does seem like a positive step, and the re-introducion of a 10 team, 36 game, elite divison would make me happy. Although now we have 12 in the top flight, I can't see the weaker clubs agreeing to drop out quietly! And who can blame them?

And of course, a full merger is IMO a necessity.

www.shelbournefc.ie wrote:

Football Association of Ireland
Press Release

Genesis says radical reform is required for eircom League to survive

The Strategic Management consultants, Genesis, have said that radical reform of the eircom League is required to secure its future. Managing Director Alistair Gray said that many League clubs are financially unsustainable and the League in its current format is near to being bankrupt, economically and commercially as a sporting product. Genesis recommends sweeping changes to its structures and operations in order to sustain itself into the future.

Mr Gray was speaking as details of Genesis’ “white paper” were outlined to stakeholders within the game. Genesis had been commissioned by the eircom League and the FAI to review the League and prepare the “white paper” regarding the future strategic direction of the League in Ireland.

Mr Gray said the opportunity existed to radically reform the eircom League and create a successful vibrant senior game, integrated with the rest of football in Ireland. “The vision of a financially viable, sustainable, successful and marketable League can only occur if the reforms are radical – tinkering around with the League will lead it nowhere”, Mr Gray said.

He also said the current situation where the League is not managed by the FAI yet is financially dependent on the Association was unworkable.

Genesis have recommended actions across 10 key areas:

· Merge fully with the FAI
o Gives the League the benefits of operating under one operational entity; increases in marketing and sponsorship benefits and benefits for football as a whole
· Change management structure running the League
o Existing 22 strong Management Committee to be reduced to 8 person Executive Board with outside representation
· Revamp League structures
o National League of 10 teams with two regional Leagues (10 teams each) with under 18 and under 21 regional Leagues and links to schoolboys
· Create mandatory participation agreements
o Based on the principle of a contract, clubs will be invited to apply for membership of the league and must sign the participation agreement and be bound by its contents which will be strongly linked to the club licensing scheme




· Prioritise investment in facilities development
o Investment should be prioritized on the clubs with clear strategic plans and should deliver a range of high quality, family friendly stadia.
o Dublin clubs will be encouraged to consider ground-sharing if they are to attract significant public funds for investment.
· Step change in approach to marketing
o The league should be re-branded and re-launched as part of a fully revised marketing strategy.
· Improve club administration
o Clubs must be managed to high levels of professionalism to raise the overall standards operating with long-term plans
· Introduce wage controls
o Mandatory wage control mechanism should be put in place for all clubs within the National League limiting spending to a maximum of 65% of turnover on players’ wages and costs. This should be monitored and enforced rigorously
· Create clear development structures
o Incorporating coaching, training and underage structures
· Invest heavily in community links
o Much stronger links needed to grow the game. League club to act as pinnacle of football in an area.

Commenting on the white paper, FAI Chief Executive Officer John Delaney said the document provided a pathway for the successful development of the game at senior level.
“The challenge is now to grasp the ideas and press ahead in consultation with the stakeholders to reform the League”, he said. “Leaving the status quo is not an option for the League or the FAI”, he added.

Chairman of the eircom League, Paddy McCaul said the consultation process which led to today’s white paper was productive and the outcomes, in general, reflect the inputs of the stakeholders of the game. “eircom League clubs know that change has to take place in order for the League to prosper again”, he said. “We now have to continue that engagement to make the changes necessary for the future viability of the League”, headed.

Following a request from the eircom League the FAI Board has appointed John Byrne as Acting Director of the League. Michael Hayes, Acting General Manager, now assumes the position of Operations Manager for the League.

The Genesis “white paper” is available on the web at www.fai.ie

http://www.fai.ie/images/eircomleaguewhitepaper.doc

Issued on behalf of the FAI by:

Pat Costello
Director Corporate Affairs
Football Association of Ireland

gimmick

Right, Ive just waded my way through this thread, and cannot believe the tripe I have seen.

Ill keep this short

Rooster, you lost all credibility in your assertions with

I've never been to an Eircom League game, and dont really intend to go.

Dublin isnt that big. And as Applehunter so eloquently put it

I will say is that these 15 male friends, did their location in Dublin make a difference to their support for clubs accross the water?

[DM]-TheDOC- I am just assuming you are trying to wind people up, as your commenst are laughable.

To make the EL any use what so ever you need good players and to make a campaign that is attractive to young people. In my group of 20 friends 2-4 guys support EL teams, bout 1 is a big fan who can name like all his teams players.

They are football fans or football viewers? There is a difference.

Slash/ED

Einst&#252 wrote: »

3 Irish caps!

Ireland:
8 - Alan Moore
1 - Glen Crowe
1 - Jason Byrne
0 - Weso Hoolihan, but he's been on the bench, and will hopefulyl get his chance!

Cameroon:
26 - Joey Ndo

To be even more padantic

Curtis Flemming - 10 or so?

And Glen Crowe has 2 caps.

So that's four full internationals, two world cups worth of experience, one who's been in the senior squad. Not to mention numerous youth caps (Indeed, Weso got nominated for Irish U21 player of the year).

As for the report, some good points raised.

Ten team premier division, Yes. Far better than the unfair 33 game system (And, if Shels somehow win the league this year by 3 or less points, I will be the first to say it is not proper reflection on the league due to the uneven amount of home and away games teams have, what with City having one more away than home game to play and playing in Tolka Park twice, it is simply not fair)

Expanding the league to include teams places that don't currently have teams, yes. Not too sure about the regionalised idea but if it helps add teams and cut down on expences then yes.

Ideally however, 16 team all Ireland premier division and regionalised first divisions is what we want, with the new teams added too if possible.

Big Ears

I like the proposals , especially as it leaves room for the creation of a Tipperary team . The part about wages not exceading a certain percentage of turnover is key aswell .

The Rooster

Not sure why I've lost credibility with you or anyone gimmick.

Certainly I'd have no credibility if we were discussing whether Cork or Derry are going to win the league this year. But this thread is about how to improve the Eircom League and encourage sports fans and potential sports fans to go to games.

In my opinion, THE most important thing the Eircom League needs to do is to attract more fans. Everything else will flow from that because it will generate revenue. It seems the attitude of many Eircom league fans is that they're quite happy with the ways things are - hence you go to the games. Ironically, you people are not really important to this debate, you're already on the hook. But the attitude of not wanting the armchair fans or looking down on sports fans who dont go to Eircom league, will certainly not help entice new followers. And thats exactly what you have to do - entice new supporters. They're not just going to turn up because they've nothing else to do at the weekend.

From yesterday's Times:
The amount of money paid in sports sponsorship in Ireland is estimated at €67,000,000.
Of this €587,000 goes to the Eircom League or to Eircom League clubs. Less than 1%.
There's a reason for that.

gimmick

Perhaps I could ahve chosen my wording better Rooster, however, I honestly beleive that so many people have pre-concieved notions about eL football that they cant get their heads around the fact that they might actually enjoy it.

By saying you have no intentions of ever going is short sighted.

Töpher

The Eircom League needs to attract fans yes. But its hard when people have their preconceived notions of how it will be terrible, how do you change their minds? They're always going to retort with "its crap", well excuse me for asking, but if you've never been how would you know?

I'd have much more respect for people who write it off if they'd actually tried a game or two and experienced the atmosphere and watched the footballing displays. And then if they don't like it fine, at least they made the effort and have a leg they can stand on in a constructive discussion. They'd at least have an real opinion to base their points on, rather than preconceived notions that they got into their heads. Sure, didn't Hitler have this preconceived notion that all Jews were evil?

As I said on another thread, its akin to a virgin saying they don't like having sex!

Pigman II

Einst&#252 wrote: »

I'd have much more respect for people who write it off if they'd actually tried a game or two ....

As I said on another thread, its akin to a virgin saying they don't like having sex!

Oh really? Have you ever had sex with a man?

Because if you've never tried it then how do you know you don't like it?

//

Point being, I think it's one thing to tell people that something is out there for them to try but its another to chastise them for not caring about it or spouting off about it with uninformed opinions. If they don't want to go to EL games or have a bad opinion of the league then so be it. I for one have better things to be doing than preaching to them about something they don't want to hear anyway and you might find besides that the disenchanted will be more inclinded to change their views if they DONT get an earbashing.

Töpher

Pigman II wrote:

Oh really? Have you ever had sex with a man?

Because if you've never tried it then how do you know you don't like it?

No.

Never claimed not to. Can't base a judgement on something I haven't tried. Suffce to say the opportunity never arose, ha. But I'd never judge anyone who does, or question their reasoning and say "its crap".

Genghis

I've always thought that Ireland alone is too small to develop soccer on its own. I would think that a Celtic league arrangement might work better. Co-incidentally the NI, Scottish and Welsh leagues face the same challenge.

Imagine:

• One league with (say) 24 teams from ROI, 24 teams from Scotland, 10 from NI, and 6 from Wales.

• Divided into 3 Divisions (20, 22, 22) or 4 Division (16 Each). The season would involve one home and one away fixture per season, and I favour the Summer football idea (good commercially, see first benefit point below)

• Celtic and Rangers would join Premiership / Championship in England (being far superior than any other team in either existing league, this is likely to happen anyway)

• European spots derived from success in the league could either be pooled, or an agreement reached whereby the top placed teams from each association could pursue European competition. National associations could also retain cup competitions with European places available to ensure that at least one representative from each association makes it to Europe.

• The league would begin with a set number of teams in each division from each association (say for the 20 in the First division, it could be 9 Scottish, 6 ROI and 3 from NI and 2 from Wales), with some protection mechanism to ensure that this remains in place for maybe the first 3 years until the league is established.

• Thereafter, there would be the usual direct promotion / relegation.

Benefits -

• Synergystic Commercial appeal - would Sky do a deal with Wales, FAI, IFA? They don't even consider Scottish football to be of value anymore. However, a Celtic league would hold appeal as there would be substantial interest / audience across the combined 16m+ population. Also, there is scope for regional side-deals with RTE / BBC regions, etc.

• Likewise, sponsorship etc would more easily follow.

• Crowds would be drawn to the bigger games, attracted by the local as well as international dynamic to the matches.

• Improved competition between teams - Look how European competition improves EL teams - Wouldn't week-in week-out football against the likes of Linfield, Hearts, Hibs, etc deliver consistent results?

• More attractive for top players - all leagues (with the possible exception of Scotland) leak native talent and have some trouble attracting foreign players - this would be less of a problem under the Celtic League.

• The role of the FAI / IFA / Scottish FA and Welsh FA would be to ensure that their representation in the top divisions remains as high as possible. They could operate other regional / lower level leagues from which teams could be promoted to reach the national quota as outlined above.)

I realise my plan is ambitious, and I fully expect that people will easily pick problems with it. The biggest problem I see will the surrender of national fiefdoms the plan requires. In addition, UEFA may not like the idea as it could set a precedent that could ultimately challenge their European competitions (however, there is also an argument that it reduces the inequality imposed on smaller leagues that is brought about by the super leagues in England, Spain, Italy, etc)

[Jackass]

Although expected, Im delighted to see a EL FAI merger recomended, as it's vital.
I'm disapointed there's no mention of even attemptig a All-Ireland elite leauge, as of yet anyway, as if we're starting a new leauge, that would be one of the main pulling points..
Im glad there is going to be a 10 team elite leauge with restrcitions on promotion/relegation as 1st division and beyond serves no real purpose, and is packed with clubs that mighn't even survuve another 10 years.
I also like the proposed structure of regional leagues below the new elite league, and the new links to grass roots. All though you could say it's a bit of a cop outcompared to what I was recomending as a entire regional league. I suppose they didn't have the balls to go that one step forward :rolleyes:

FAI Press release wrote:

In return, clubs could benefit from improved central marketing and more effectively targeted investment of public and FAI funds. On this latter point, Genesis officials told those attending yesterday's meeting at the Green Isle Hotel that clubs serving large population centres would be likely to receive priority.

You cant get more central, and more effectively targted marketing than the entire Dublin population, with a North/South divide.

It was pointed out, however, there would be a reluctance to substantially fund the development of four stadiums for the main clubs and there would be considerable pressure on the clubs to come to ground-sharing deals, which would be likely, if the resistance of club officials and their supporters could be overcome, to yield just one stadium on each side of the river.

These 2 points, to me, clearly indicate there are too many clubs in Dublin, there isn't enough room or money for them, and it's a waist of money having 5 clubs paying rents etc. competeing for an amount of fanbase only big enough to sustain one, maybe two clubs max. as it stands. It's unsustainable, a north/south divide makes more sense, the infrastructure they're even introducing would perfectly sugest and sustain it. Possibly they have it in the back of there mind as a long term objective.

It also refers to the marketing:

"clubs serving large population centres would be likely to receive priority."

Again, indicating the 5 clubs in dublin waisting resources, there's a lot more to go around when it's only split 2 ways, and with only 2 clubs it covers the entire population of Dublin, not patches. Again, You cant get larger population centres than 2 clubs for the entire Dublin population...instead of 5 clubs for about one 10th of it.

Do the FAI & EL have the balls? are they going to dip their toe in the water and make some changes, which ultimatly canges nothing in the long run, or are they going to jump in and make these "radical changes needed for the EL to survive" the report refers to?

The real answers are: merge FAI & EL, absolute overhaul of club structures, two Dublin stadiums, two Dublin clubs north/ south divide, regionalise teams in elite league, incorporate north of Ireland, use the massive investment money that would be generated by a new look league on marketing...there would be substantually more fans per club geographicly, and the marketing money would be far more evenly distributed, reachig far more fans, which marketing has proven, means more people at matches, which means more money again...etc. etc. you've got the makings of a quality league.

I think I'm backed up by the research of Genises:

"Alistair Gray said that many League clubs are financially unsustainable and the League in its current format is near to being bankrupt, economically and commercially as a sporting product. Genesis recommends sweeping changes to its structures and operations in order to sustain itself into the future."

No body's interested in the product of Shelbourne, Pats, Rovers etc. Where will they be re-locating to next week? Tallaght? Swords? I wonder which team will be moving in near me soon? Fans are alienated with all these clubs...the dis-organisation, shifting around every season...the ecomomic uncertainty....will Rovers be around in 5 years? it's anyones guess how many grounds they'll play in between now and then...so where's the fan base? and where does that fan base go if they're not around? No it's a mess, and it's what makes the league and those clubs financially unstable, and it's why any leauge as small as ours...with that many teams in one area means none of them will sucseed...there's not enough resources to go around, it's geared for failure. 2 Clubs. 2 areas. North and south. All fans All over he city coverd. Far more resources going into fasr less teams = far more quality.

"Mr Gray said the opportunity existed to radically reform the eircom League and create a successful vibrant senior game, integrated with the rest of football in Ireland. “The vision of a financially viable, sustainable, successful and marketable League can only occur if the reforms are radical – tinkering around with the League will lead it nowhere”, Mr Gray said."

Change the name of the league, but still have the same clubs, with the same players, apart from a couple less teams, the same structure....that's tinkering....what i'm talking about is very radical...but if they do it, it will work, and we'll have a sustainable, decent league, with prospects of sucsess.

Recommendation made by Genises: The league should be re-branded and re-launched as part of a fully revised marketing strategy.

"Dublin clubs will be encouraged to consider ground-sharing if they are to attract significant public funds for investment."

Which they probab;y wont be able to come to a satisfactory agreement with to much politics in the leauge blocking it's development, and will probably lose a couple of million in oublic funding...Or instead of splting "significant public funds" on 5 clubs, and then making them all group together and share the results...it makes much more sense to use it to develop two clubs...the results will be far greater, and far more focused...lets look at quality not quantity.

If you just don't think with your heart for two seconds, and think with your head..you must agree with me!

Look at GAA All Ireland regionalised structure. When only the best players are on show, and when every fan in the country has their own team, and everyone in areas are getting behind the same team, there's a massive buzz factor. The amount of attention it generates, for All Ireland final they could sell 250,000 tickets if they could only fit them all in....and that's in two seperate sports. The Dublin team is so big, and has such massive support base they considerd splitting it into a North South divide, becasue even if you split their fan base in half, they would still sell out croke park every time they played! Im sure if you were to ask every dub suporter coming out of croke park if they like "soccer", 99% would say they do and follow the national team etc. So why wouldn't they support a team in a regionalised leauge simular to GAA if it was "soccer" being played instead of football?

Now look at the GAA club set-up...When it's broken up into several teams in a general area, and everybody is supporting different teams who are from a small geographic area, and the quality is diluted with mediocre players....They can barely get 10,000 in the gate for the leaugr finals.

In my view, this report, on the whole, is another cop-out, I think Genesis were beating about the Bush regarding regionaliseation, particuarly in Dublin, for fear of it being fully rejected, but that's irrelivant, they should suggest pecifically what will work, and it's up to the FAI & EL to decide what to do...just more words and more meaningless changes will be made....another oppertunity lost, and the begining of the end for LOI if it needed it...not nearly radical enough, and countless amounts of money will be waisted by being spread far to thin and being mismanaged...and most importantly, they have still failed to identify a product to sell. What's going to be different to the punter about this leauge than the current EL?

Töpher

Its clear radical changes are needed, but the closest any fan will get to merging clubs is ground sharing. Noone will want to merge their club with another. If anything, having fewer clubs in Dublin will lead to more of "there's nowhere near me" arguments.

Genghis' idea is quite well structured, but unfortunately rather unfeesable. I for one couldn't afford trips to Scotland every second week And also, without a national league we have no national team. This would also need to be changed by FIFA etc.