Fighting increasing fundamentalism

joseph dawton

I am appalled by the Pope's increasingly hardline approach, coupled with entrenched positions of some other clerics of other religions it doesn't offer much hope for tolerance and reconcilliation does it?

I have not suffered myself but some of my pagan friends have felt a backlash against them and it's getting worse so I hear. Also a few muslim people I know are viewed with suspicion for no apparent reason I sure it's because of their faith. I think it's important that people speak out against leaders like the Pope who encourage narrowmindedness, racist and bigotted attitudes. Does anyone agree with me?

Nevyn

I am a pagan and I disagree.
I am glad to see the catholic chruch start pulling up it's socks tbh.
They have a very clear cut set of directives for thier religion and you are either
in or you are out.
There are too many alle carte catholics and christians who take and leave
what they want from the churches doctrine and do not hold to the basics.

'Love Thy neighbour as yourself' this does not differencate between a
neighbour that is of the same race or creed as you and one that is not.

Christainty and Catholism are spiritual paths that can be very good for those
that chooser them.
A lotof peope feel that they ar catholic/christain be default as they feel the
never had a choice in the matter.
As the Catholic church disowns people who will not coform to the doctrine
and dogma of that faith they will then let go of that and start looking arround
for a faith that that fits them and thier life style.

I think that epsicopalian
faith and churches would d well over here with the ammount of lapsed and
disillusioned catholics Ireland has.
I would prefer to see them here then some of the more radical evanglising
christain sects.

Then again some of the best christians I know walked away from all churches
long ago. Christainty has a lot of good to offer, really other wise why would
the words of a rebellious man who spoke out and spoke a lot of sense 2000 years ago still be heard today.

I do think tolerance and acceptance is needed , reconilation ?
why would that be needed ?
Different people worship thier gods in differnt ways and live thier lives accordingly.

stevenmu

I kind of agree with Thaed. I think the last Pope was quite good at encouraging tolerance between those of different religions, including visiting famous Mosques and Synagogues, and I think the new Pope is following on in that tradition. What he is doing though is saying that catholics need to either be proper catholics or not be catholics at all. IMO there's too many people who claim to be catholics but disagree with standard catholic teachings, the most obvious ones being teachings on homosexuality, abortion, contraception and divorce. I know others disagree with me on this but I think that catholisicm is a religion where you pretty much have to believe and follow all of the vaticans teachings. While there are other religions/belief systems that allow you to 'pick-n-mix', I don't see catholisicm as being one of them. IMO if you don't believe/follow all the vaticans teachings, which include tolerance for those of other faiths, then you're not really a catholic.

I think it's really people who bring fundamentalism upon themselves, they become convinced that they are right and everyone who disagrees with them is not only wrong. Not only that but they think anyone who is 'wrong' either needs to be converted for their own good, or that they are dangerous to what is 'right' and need to be eliminated. There are then those who can turn such fundamentalism to their own ends, Osama Bin Laden being the prime example of this. I don't believe for one second that he believes half the crap he comes with himself, I think he's using Islamic fundamentalism for his own ends (power mainly).

Dagon

I don't think people understand what was being implied in the original post.

Anyone who has come close to God can understand that any and all forms of sectarianism are actually increasing conflict, chaos and further misery in the world. When all faiths - be they pagan or catholicism - unite under the one banner, the banner of the universal energy of love, then only can there be an end to misery, to chaos in the world. It is as simple as that.

Anyone who promotes this or that doctrine, anyone who promotes this or that "way" or "teaching" or any organised faith (be it Christian or non-christian) is actually helping the cause for separatism. Anyone who is under any banner whatsoever is in love with their own concepts, their own beliefs, the written word, the path.. this will not solve the crisis we face in the world right now. It may give you personal gratification and may increase your ego, but these are short term gains and they will not ultimately free you, or those around you.

Right now, it is of utmost importance that people recognise that it is not the issue of converting from one faith to another, from one form of dogma to another more acceptable or palatable dogma that suits ones life, from one idol to another cooler looking idol. It is, rather, the issue of converting from hate to love, from tension to calmness, from war to peace, from toleration to love and acceptance, from lie to universal truth.

It doesn't matter what this pope or that pope has done, or whatever other faiths he appears to "tolerate". It is all empty and false when the actions of this person are in complete contradiction to unity, to love, to God.

Dades

Dagon wrote:

Right now, it is of utmost importance that people recognise that it is not the issue of converting from one faith to another, from one form of dogma to another more acceptable or palatable dogma that suits ones life, from one idol to another cooler looking idol. It is, rather, the issue of converting from hate to love, from tension to calmness, from war to peace, from toleration to love and acceptance, from lie to universal truth.

*Applauds*

Well said (although there are perhaps differing "universal truths").

stevenmu

Dagon wrote:

I don't think people understand what was being implied in the original post.

.....

Put like that, I'd agree with you completely, and I think it's a great pity that more religious figures around world don't. The thing is, from the Pope's point of view, his way is the right way and all others are wrong. While he does preach tolerance of others, yourself and the OP are both right that this will lead to intolerance and hatred. Unfortunatly as far as the Pope is concerned, other ways being 'wrong' is an integral part of his religion and beliefs, and it if that were to change it would akin to admitting that the church has been wrong about it since it's inception, and if it was wrong about that it may as well be wrong about everything else too.

Dagon

If it is really the universal truth, then there can be no separation because the real truth will unite, not bring about more conflict and sects. That is how you will know it when you see it. If someone claims something is "the way" or "the path" or "the true one path" or "the truth", and yet the very workings of this faith bring about separation or divisions or ANY sort, then this faith has already been revealed for what it really is; a contradiction of itself. Observe these people, observe these groups and organisations at work, observe those who practice in their daily existence, find out for yourself through your own awareness. Don't believe what you read on their website

"While he does preach tolerance of others" - "his way is the right way and all others are wrong."

Exactly. This very activity is completely ego-centred, and therefore the ultimate aims of the enlightened person who began this faith have been corrupted, polluted, made impure.

For instance; Buddha never created Buddhism, Buddhists created Buddhism. Buddha only ever gave Dhamma, a wonderful technique for all people to practice regardless of creed/caste, he only ever brought people together, nobody was turned away. Experts in this area will verify it. Separation came along when the robes, rites, rituals, temples and scriptures took precedence over the teaching that Buddha gave.

Dades

Dagon, now I'm confused as to what you're actually saying.

Yes the world's faiths need to sort out a common agenda, but this cannot (for them) be at the cost of losing their identity.

The Pope believes himself to be the one and only portal to I]the Catholic[/I GOD the creator of everything. For somebody that commited the idea of tolerance can never extend to integrating faiths.

It won't happen so if change is to come it will have to be at the levels where the real people are.

Dagon

"It won't happen so if change is to come it will have to be at the levels where the real people are."

I don't know if it will happen or not. It might be looking unlikely right now, but I never like to say "won't" because I don't really know for sure.

"Yes the world's faiths need to sort out a common agenda, but this cannot (for them) be at the cost of losing their identity."

You have pinpointed the exact problem - identity.

Identification with a particular holy person, identification with a nation, identification with a flag, identification with money, identification with power, identification with your family, your child, your loved one.

Do they not all need to conflict?

But would you like to give up your identity completey? I know I wouldn't, and that is why I continue to generate misery and unhappiness for myself, and sometimes others. I am learning slowly, but until I learn to completelysurrender, to let go of my identity and my various accumilations, I will remain unenlightened. And difficulties will ensue.

The exact same thing applies to the situation in the world. Until the Pope leaves identity behind him, there is destined to be war, conflict, misery. Until everyone leaves that beihind, and follows the path of the simple man, there will be chaos in the world. And this applies right down to our daily relationship with each other, our attachment to our particular beliefs, our complete lack of love. There is no mystery or hocuspocus behind it, it's very basic.

We are creating all this chaos every moment in our lives, and the greater chaos is expressed in larger world events - but this is nothing more than a reflection of our daily war with ourselves. A larger representation.

So pointing the finger at the Pope is quite unfair in truth, but it may help us to understand things on a larger level, then apply it to our own lives.

Dades

Dagon wrote:

So pointing the finger at the Pope is quite unfair in truth, but it may help us to understand things on a larger level, then apply it to our own lives.

Absolutely.

I don't envisage a day when the Pope will appeal to the masses having 'spoken' with God, and declare all of humanity children of the earth; equal in the eyes of the Creator.

Once we accept this it is up to ourselves, instead, to declare it.
Unfortunately we lack the same platform as El Papa.

KnowItAll

joseph dawton wrote:

. Also a few muslim people I know are viewed with suspicion for no apparent reason I sure it's because of their faith.

Why do you think that is? Part of their faith is to view other non-muslims as being the dirt under their shoes/sandals.

joseph dawton wrote:

.
I think it's important that people speak out against leaders like the Pope who encourage narrowmindedness, racist and bigotted attitudes. Does anyone agree with me?

How does the pope encourage narrowmindedness, racist and bigotted attitudes. Could you give some examples please because I've never seen any.

Goodshape

KnowItAll wrote:

How does the pope encourage narrowmindedness, racist and bigotted attitudes. Could you give some examples please because I've never seen any.

The Pope to exclude gay priests
Condom Conundrums.

Some good sentiments expressed by Dagon; I agree with most of that. Though I also agree with Thead that the catholic church is what it is and should not be expected to change for your or anyone elses sake.

Catholicism isn't a democracy, it's a defined set of beliefs and you can either accept that our find yourself a new path. The 'love they neighbor' rule alone should be enough to save you from any bigotry if you do.

Actual spirituality aside, I do see the church as having undue influence over world affairs and some very questionable 'recruitment' practices at times. It's this that should be address rather than their fundamental beliefs.

scorptech

Hi, I had a read of the thread and thought I would put my 5 pence worth in.

I was brought up as a catholic but got disillusioned with the “you must love thy God, but you must also fear thy God” kind of preaching. Most of the issues in religion are man made, and you have to question the motive. Religion is man made to control man, what ever the religion, but the one thing they all agree on is that there is a God. Whether that is Buddha, Jehovah or Christ etc.

I am now into spiritualism and have got more from this than the many years of being a “catholic”. From a psychological point of view, man has always lived in groups for hundreds of years, so to change this will be very difficult, however, I live by these guidelines:-

1) Love thy God
2) Do unto others as you would like done unto you
3) It’s better to give than receive
4) Like attracts like
5) Universal law – what goes around comes around (Karma)

These rules, as for as I’m concerned, do not need any religion, belief system or anything else for that matter. If everyone, regardless of religion, lived by these guidelines, than the world would be a better place. This can only really happen when people start asking the question “What is the meaning of life”, “why are we here” etc.

Dades

scorptech wrote:

These rules, as for as I’m concerned, do not need any religion, belief system or anything else for that matter.

The notion of Karma requires some faith if you ask me.
It's a nice idea, but as far as I'm concerned - what goes around doesn't always come around.

stevenmu

The Atheist wrote:

The notion of Karma requires some faith if you ask me.
It's a nice idea, but as far as I'm concerned - what goes around doesn't always come around.

Karma (which I see as an extension of the 'like attracts like') can have some very obvious basis in reality. For example, criminals tend to associate with other criminals, and if some junkie mugs you for drug money, there's a good chance that at some stage they'll suffer an overdose or end up in debt to a dealer who'll give them a good beating. Similarly when someone is nice, kind and generous and always willing to help out their friends/strangers then there's a good chance that they'll have people willing to help them out when they need it. It's not exact or certain, there'll always be very noticeable exceptions, but karma often has a way of catching up with people, even if there may not be an actuall karma, if you see what I mean.

scorptech wrote:

1) Love thy God
2) Do unto others as you would like done unto you
3) It’s better to give than receive
4) Like attracts like
5) Universal law – what goes around comes around (Karma)

I like those rules (except maybe the 1st), it's great pity more people don't live by them. Even though most religions seem to echo them in some form or another, they get overlooked in favour of the more man-made rules.

scorptech

I agree with stevenmu, we are all here to learn about life. During our life we will be given "lessons" to learn. If we do not learn from these listens, then they will keep coming around until we do learn, this is Karma.

In my own experiences, I have seen this happen to people on a number of occasions (what goes around comes around). The one person I can relate this to is my old boss. arrogant, selfish, materialistic etc. These attributes are concerned with your root chakra and your root chakra is linked to a number of your internal organs, one of them being your prostate gland. My boss got prostate cancer about a year ago and was lucky that it didn’t spread. Now, you would think that having the big “C” would change your out look on life, not him. He is still the same, so this karma will come around again in some shape or form until he does learn from it. Karma might not be immediate, but it will eventually come around!!

About a year ago I decided to change my attitude and adapt the “belief” that "what you give, you receive", but this must be done with sincerity. If you do it wanting something in return, it will not work. Since changing, I’ve noticed a big difference in my life and the people around me.

I also avoid negative people who just bring your energy down.

Dades

I guess there's a lot to be said about that kind of "Karma" alright.

If you act like a dick your whole life then sooner or later you're going to feel the wrath of someone you crossed. That's man-made karma. I suspect negative karma is more likely to be reciprocated than positive karma however. I don't know if that's good or bad.

This life rule is more of a heaven/hell type encouragement/warning than anything else.
But one that relies on human nature to punish or reward.

solas

1) Love thy God
2) Do unto others as you would like done unto you
3) It’s better to give than receive
4) Like attracts like
5) Universal law – what goes around comes around (Karma)

These rules, as for as I’m concerned, do not need any religion, belief system or anything else for that matter.

but..these "rules" are a religion, that being "a belief system"..it just happens to be your own personal one.

If everyone, regardless of religion, lived by these guidelines, than the world would be a better place.

no doubt christians, muslims, jews and pagans etc..feel the same way about their system of belief..because it works for them.
So it goes back to square one. "God...if only everyone thought like me, the world would be a better place."

scorptech

SOLAS - but..these "rules" are a religion, that being "a belief system"..it just happens to be your own personal one.

If you want to call it a belief system, than that's your call, however, if eveyone did follow these guidelines regardless of race, creed or nationality, then the world would be a better place.

Dades

solas wrote:

"God...if only everyone thought like me, the world would be a better place."

Thinking is not the problem IMO.

The vast majority of people already know what they should and should not do as a matter of course. All religions with the exception of twisted radical ones promote the "golden rule" in one form or another.

It's not that people don't think this is the correct way to lead their lives, they just don't act on this.
People know how they should act - they just don't.

scorptech

SOLAS - It's not that people don't think this is the correct way to lead their lives, they just don't act on this.

I agree, and what do we put it down to? Psychological manipulation by the powers that be, society and the materialistic world we live in. One of the biggest mass hypnosis devices we have today is the TV. When people realise this, then they can start moving away from materialism etc, but the penny has to drop, this, however, is very difficult.

Who makes society, we do. Who can change society, we can. But doing something outside the norm of society is seen as "weird". Why should this be? Who keeps us from stepping outside of society? friend’s and family - just like the shepard and the sheep dog. If the sheep move outside the herd, they are brought back in line.

Are you strong enough to move away from the herd?

solas

athiest wrote:

thinking is not the problem

well...in all fairness, it all starts with a thought, these same thought processes brought us every other religion anyway.

psst..scorp, your quoting athiest.

athiest wrote:

It's not that people don't think this is the correct way to lead their lives, they just don't act on this.

I also agree it does come down to actions, but we can't change other people and once we begin to accept that, then the world might be a better place.

scorptech

SOLAS - I also agree it does come down to actions, but we can't change other people and once we begin to accept that, then the world might be a better place.

The world will not be a better place if people didn't change. Change starts with us. We then educate our kids and so forth. Why do you think some of these troubled kids are the way they are, because they learn from their parents and society.

So change has to start with us, and if like attracts like, then more and more people will hopefully be enlightened. We cannot change people directly, but we can do it indirectly starting with family and friends. Especially if people see you as a person that people respect and lookup to.

I'm not saying to go around and start preaching, but small changes in attitudes to people can make a difference. As an IT Manager with staff, I use a number of management techniques to motivate staff, so it can be done. It's up to you whether you want to or not.

stevenmu

solas wrote:

but..these "rules" are a religion, that being "a belief system"..it just happens to be your own personal one.

There is certainly a similarity between myself and scorptech thinking that these rules are good and that the world would be better if everyone thought like that, and the Pope thinking that his rules are good and the world ... etc,etc. There's also a similarity between saying the people saying that the Pope's views are wrong and that he shouldn't be preaching them, and the Pope saying that pick-n-mix religion etc is wrong. And I'm certainly guilty of

solas wrote:

So it goes back to square one. "God...if only everyone thought like me, the world would be a better place."

The big difference however being that I don't go around telling people that they should follow my rules. Personally I think that they should be self-evident, are really a part of human nature, not nessecarily spiritual based and could be agreed upon by anyone (apart from the first which I already mentioned disagreeing with).

(I hope I got all that right, I'm trying do 5 things at once here)

Dades

stevenmu wrote:

Personally I think that they should be self-evident, are really a part of human nature, not nessecarily spiritual based and could be agreed upon by anyone (apart from the first which I already mentioned disagreeing with).

They are self evident, and as you say not stemming from any particular religion. [Although some theists will undoubtably argue that their religion is the source of this life ethos].

Everyone living by these rules would create a selfless and probably class-less, utopian society. This is too far out of our reach. As scorptech suggests change starts with our kids. How do you educate your kids? Try and give them a social conscience.

It's no use knowing you should treat others as you would yourself, if your conscience don't control your actions.

Reminds me of a quote: I have morals, I just ignore them.

solas

scorp wrote:

The world will not be a better place if people didn't change. Change starts with us.

this is the point I was making. We can't change others we can only change ourselves.

steven wrote:

The big difference however being that I don't go around telling people that they should follow my rules. Personally I think that they should be self-evident,

xactly, I wholeheartedly agree.

athiest wrote:

Everyone living by these rules would create a selfless and probably class-less, utopian society.

so why not apply these rules to the current topic. People are unhappy with the pope and the catholic church, and possibly many other religious authorites. Why? Unless you are a member of that particular faith and are unhappy with its policies, I don't see the need to get befuddled about it.
We can't change them, we can only truly change our attitude toward them and if we are genuinely happy and content with our own selves and our beliefs there should be no need to be concerned with others. They will either change themselves over time or die out.

scorptech

The Atheist - Everyone living by these rules would create a selfless and probably class-less, utopian society. This is too far out of our reach. As scorptech suggests change starts with our kids. How do you educate your kids? Try and give them a social conscience.

You've hit the nail on the head - how can we give our kids a social conscience if we are ignorant to it ourselves??

It's not a problem until people realise there is a problem!!

Dagon

"Who makes society, we do. Who can change society, we can."

Absolutely. But there is a lot of fear because most humans are incapable of steeping out of the "known". Stepping into the unknown brings about freshness, creativity, positive action. But so much fear is associated with leaving behind attachments that it becomes easier to become a dull machine, going through mindless habit patterns and repeating the same old mistakes time and time again. This is all a result of thinking, analysing and the worship of ideas. I feel that ideas are very dangerous, they create a deep and scary gulf between what "is" and what is "not". Crossing this gulf is a constant struggle and bring conflict.

We can change ourselves, we can change society. Thinking may be the beginning of our path, concepts may face us in the right direction... but thinking and analysing must be left behind if we are to progress.

Imagine if a child could grow up without all the harmful influences of television? How would that child think, act, dream, behave? How much more creative would this child be? If television was removed completely from our culture, the changes would be baffling.

Dades

Dagon wrote:

Imagine if a child could grow up without all the harmful influences of television? How would that child think, act, dream, behave? How much more creative would this child be? If television was removed completely from our culture, the changes would be baffling.

I don't think television can be blamed for societies woes.

If television disappeared in the morning it won't be instantly replaced by classical literature. Yes there'd be changes. Maybe we'd have a lot more kids loitering on street corners. It, like the Internet, is an information portal - you take from it what you want. (Granted, TV does show an awful lot of crap...)

I don't think TV stifles creativity or ambition. Many kids' dreams have come from watching Discovery Channel, Space Shuttle launches, or any quality Police or Medical drama. News channels feed us images from around the world - to people who only other source of news is the "National Enquirer". Take away television and the ignorace of world affairs that was prevelant before the advent of TV returns.

scorptech

DAGON - Imagine if a child could grow up without all the harmful influences of television? How would that child think, act, dream, behave? How much more creative would this child be? If television was removed completely from our culture, the changes would be baffling.

I totally agree with you on that one, so how can we start to make a change? Well most of the users on this forum seem to be well aware that change has to take place - so we start with ourselves and then educate or kids. Over a period of time, hopefully this will make a difference. Apathy might kick in, but that's another matter.

stevenmu

Apathy ? meh, I wouldn't bother worrying about that.