Fighting increasing fundamentalism

Dagon

"Take away television and the ignorace of world affairs that was prevelant before the advent of TV returns."

Yes, television offeres some wonderful information.

But would you agree that humans are the results of conditioning? And most human woes and problems are the result of negative conditioning of the mind? Is this true?

There is much negative conditioning taking place, but also much positive. A human being is sometimes nothing more than a bunch of conditioned responses and information. And this brings about great misery.

Television conditions the human mind to no end. Therefore, the human becomes the result of television. That is, a lot of the conditioning that takes place is done by television when it is viewed in excess (and a lot of people watch it a lot), so the values and behaviour that is seen on TV is adopted. Simple as that.

Now, for yourself I ask you to spend 8 hours watching the TV. Afterwards, examine how you feel. What percentage of the content you have viewed could be percieved as positive conditioning for the fragile human mind?

You find out for yourself.

stevenmu

I'm not really convinced by the impact on society by TV. I've watched as much crap as any murderer, thief, politician etc, I'd have even watched '18's films as a child, and still think of myself as a pretty decent person. Altough my parents were very persistent in pointing out the differences between TV/movies and real life, so maybe I was pre-conditioned into not being conditioned by TV. And there are plenty of parents out there who don't seem to give a crap about passing good value systems on to their children.

Dades

Dagon wrote:

But would you agree that humans are the results of conditioning? And most human woes and problems are the result of negative conditioning of the mind? Is this true?

To be honest, I don't agree that human actions are the result of conditioning. I believe that if someone mimics a murder they saw in a movie that that person had a predilection for murder to begin. It's easier to blame TV, or religion, or society than it is to accept that people are going to act in line with their nature. You don't make people good - they are made good.

Yes in certain circumstances people can be perverted by their upbringing. Adults abused as children are statistically more likely to abuse their own. But this is a far cry from television that is an accepted part of life.

What realistically replaces 8 hours of TV in somebody's day? Home schooling? Reading at the library? What fills the void?

Was society so much better before we had television? Or perhaps it was just repressed and society's ills were other peoples problems.

scorptech

TV is one of the many ways on which we are conditioned. Anyone remember the Coca Cola experiments in the 60’s regarding subliminal adverts in the cinema? What about Bush Junior’s subliminal message of rats when he was fighting Al Gore. The only problem with this one was that Bush had the subliminal message up too long, so if you slowed it down and played it back, you saw rats.

Psychological manipulation through the media is one way we are condition. The fact that you don’t realise this means that it’s successful. Yes, you can watch violent movies and not kill anyone, but then your probably older and hopefully wiser. I’ve stopped my son watching the Power Rangers because he keeps going around hitting us thinking he’s one of them (he’s four by the way).

A typical example of conditioning at an early age!!

Dagon

"To be honest, I don't agree that human actions are the result of conditioning."

I never said all actions are the result of conditioning, sometimes there is negative or positive energy existing in a human - I don't know how it gets there, possibly built up through numerous lives, and karma.

But most thoughts you have are conditioned. Action springs from thought, therefore most actions are conditioned. If you reach into the subconscious levels of the mind you can find this out experientially, you can actually watch yourself acting and reacting time and time again on stored up information. Don't take my word for it, try it out.

I don't think TV is evil or whetever, but it slows us down, it drugs us, it hypnotises us, it dulls us, it dulls our minds. We are contented, dull, machines going through old routines. But it is only one of many activities we do that leads us further from awareness and alertness.

You say that it is useful tool for staying in touch with world events, politics and news. But how useful is this information to you? All of these things are merely distractions, they are escapes, and they do not liberate people in any way. Newspapers, tv, mobile phones, shopping, etc. they are all very dangerous tools when they have the widespread use and acceptance that they now have; sometimes I find it hard to believe this is not seen by more people.

"What realistically replaces 8 hours of TV in somebody's day? Home schooling? Reading at the library? What fills the void?"

It depends on the individual. All I know is that 4 years ago I watched a lot of TV, now I don't watch any, or maybe very occasionally when I'm at home eating or before bed, but there is nothings that I GOTTA WATCH OR ELSE!! What has filled the void? Well, a lot of very interesting things actually. You wouldn't believe what you can do when you free yourself from the chains of the TV, the energy it frees up within you is enormous. You will take up new hobbies and fill your life with many interesting things that will enhance and enrich your short time on this planet

But, as we said before, it's up to the individual to make these decisions for themselves when they feel compelled to!

Dades

scorptech wrote:

I’ve stopped my son watching the Power Rangers because he keeps going around hitting us thinking he’s one of them (he’s four by the way).

He's four! Of course he's not going to know what's going on. Does that mean kids of 8, or 10 can't watch that stuff? It's no more violent that the early Batman series I watched as I kid.

Take away the media and all you are doing is cocooning society. That is not progress. Media programming has been around since Gutenberg invented the printing press. The only difference now is choice. We're not told what to watch/read any more.

Dagon wrote:

I never said all actions are the result of conditioning, sometimes there is negative or positive energy existing in a human - I don't know how it gets there, possibly built up through numerous lives, and karma.

Or it's our basic character and we're born with it..?

Dagon wrote:

You say that it is useful tool for staying in touch with world events, politics and news. But how useful is this information to you? All of these things are merely distractions, they are escapes, and they do not liberate people in any way.

So ignorance is bliss? I never considered watching coverage of the African AIDs crisis as an 'escape'.

I get the feeling we're slipping down different paths here.

joseph dawton

I have to disagree, we live in an age of full scale media manipulation and advertising bombardment. TV is the main instrument of brainwashing and it is extremely pursuasive. I'm sure John Logi Baird would have destroyed his invention had he known how misused it has become.

Every day we are told what to buy what to wear, read, watch, think. You say there is more choice - well yes but all the choices are nearly identical like so many brands of washing powder or breakfast cereal.

Real free thinking and making decisions about life outside of the loop is definitely not encouraged. Don't you know we're all meant to shut up like good little consumers? We're allowed 'freedom' so long as our beliefs and actions don't visibly stray beyond what governments consider to be acceptable.

Dagon

"So ignorance is bliss? I never considered watching coverage of the African AIDs crisis as an 'escape'.

I get the feeling we're slipping down different paths here. "

Hehe.. honestly mate, I think it's similar stuff. Why this extraordinary concern with others, with the problems of others, with the private lives of others? Why this incessant greed for information?

There are so many problems going on within ourselves, yet we attempt to cover it up by occupying our minds with the problems of others. This doesn't help. Knowledge about the problems of other people does not help.

Start to understand yourself, and try to solve the problems within, try to start untying the knots. Then you will have a lot more to give to the world wherever you go, and you will become a lot more productive in helping to solve problems for others.

Dades

Hmmm.

I don't get how looking inwards is going to help anyone less fortunate then ourselves. Isn't the problem with society that people's motives are inherently selfish? The instinct to look after number one?

I'm happy with my life but through the media I know that millions dying of hunger and disease are not with theirs.

I don't have a need for information but I feel a better person when I'm at least aware of what is going on in the world. As a result, although I'm not going to pack up and become an aid worker, I might throw a few quid to worthy causes. And this is more likely to help a soul than taking time to 'understand myself'.

scorptech

Joseph Dawton - Real free thinking and making decisions about life outside of the loop is definitely not encouraged. Don't you know we're all meant to shut up like good little consumers? We're allowed 'freedom' so long as our beliefs and actions don't visibly stray beyond what governments consider to be acceptable.

I agree with Joseph. Are sheep in a field surrounded by bushes free? What we perceive as "freedom" is covert control by the government and the powers that be. As a person who is trained and has trained people in social psychology, I know how easy it is to manipulate people once you understand the science and understand that people are creatures of habit. The government, amongst other "agencies" also know this.

The Atheist - I might throw a few quid to worthy causes. And this is more likely to help a soul than taking time to 'understand myself'.

Throwing a few quid to a worthy cause is your solution to improving the world? Don't you know that most of the governments are corrupt. All the money raised for the Kurdish crisis never got to the Kurdish people due to corrupt politician called Jeffery Archer!!

What I sense from a number of users on this forum is that they are well aware of what is going on and that there is a bigger picture. So if you are watching the television to be "informed" then you would already know that there are forces controlling and manipulating events behind the scenes. Your obviously watching the wrong channel

Dades

Okay, now thaty we're firmly ensconced in the realm of the conspiracy theory (;)), I want to know what freedoms you are being denied, and how you are reacting to this denial? And by reacting - I don't mean talk.

Lets not forget that many people are happy to be sheep. Some of us present are not. If you can put into words what it is that you cannot, but should be able to do in today's society I'll be very interested to hear.

scorptech wrote:

Throwing a few quid to a worthy cause is your solution to improving the world? Don't you know that most of the governments are corrupt. All the money raised for the Kurdish crisis never got to the Kurdish people due to corrupt politician called Jeffery Archer!!

I'm not trying to improve the world. I ain't Bob Geldof or Mother Teresa. Like 99% of people my world is very small. But I like to think that a worthy cause can use donations to do some good.

Even after a percentage is skimmed off it's surely better than sitting back turning off BBC World News and reflecting on how the government is manipulating you.

Dagon

I don't think we should spend too much time fantasising about "conspiracy theories".

My point was to respod to your "ignorance is bliss" inference. I think the bottom line is that we are spending a lot of time covering up our own problems in the here and now, our relationship to the present moment. Being in constant awareness (or even partial) of present moment is not ignorance. Understanding the nature of your relationship with those around you and with yourself is not ignorance. Spending time fantasising and filling the mind with information and knowledge about numerous topics, world issues, politics, epidemics, statistics and even conspiracy thoeries is ignorance. You are avoiding, or delaying the relationship with reality as it is. This in itself is also very selfish - someone who is living in ignorance has very little to give or contribute to those around him or her. Know yourself first.

Dades

Dagon wrote:

Spending time fantasising and filling the mind with information and knowledge about numerous topics, world issues, politics, epidemics, statistics and even conspiracy thoeries is ignorance. You are avoiding, or delaying the relationship with reality as it is.

I have my own thoughts on what is avoiding reality...

Being in constant awareness (or even partial) of present moment is not ignorance... Know yourself first.

Okay I'm listening... but then what?
Assuming you reach that destination - what good is it to anyone other than yourself?

Dagon

"Assuming you reach that destination - what good is it to anyone other than yourself?"

Find out for yourself, try it out. Don't believe a book.

Knowledge of worldly things, of items in the news, of knowledge gained from reading books, this is not awareness. It is little more than accumilation in the mind of facts and details. Freeing the mind from all these things gives the mind profound energy to become more selfless, and to truly give.. (without forcing it).

scorptech

Ignorance is not knowing.

If you didn't know that a car was a form of transport, you would probably still use a bus, but the fact that you know what a car does means that you can decide whether you want to use a car or a bus. It's a basic anology, but you know where I'm coming from.

Knowledge gives you choices, what you do with the knowledge is up to you.

having knowledge on various subject matters has helped me review my own life and improve it. Books etc give you knowledge, it's what you do with it this knowledge that counts.

Some people prefer to be lead like sheep, but there are a few who have woken up to what is going on and have made a conscience decision to make changes to their own lives and the people around them.

Dades

scorptech wrote:

it's what you do with it this knowledge that counts.

Absolutely. Though this doesn't mean you can't just enjoy a facinating book on a topic about which you know nothing.

Dagon, rather than continue in circles I'll propose that we've taken seperate paths again.

Dagon

"If you didn't know that a car was a form of transport, you would probably still use a bus, but the fact that you know what a car does means that you can decide whether you want to use a car or a bus. It's a basic anology, but you know where I'm coming from.

Knowledge gives you choices, what you do with the knowledge is up to you. "

Yes, totally agree. We need to have knowledge of technical facts to get through life. The more we know about such things, the easier life becomes.

After all is said and done, I still love watching movies, reading interesting books and buying the odd glossy-style magazine from the newsagent. It gives me knowledge that I find interesting, useful in life, broadens my ideas, and sometimes gives gratification

But what I was trying, albeit not very well, to point out, is that a socity where such things are held up as Gods, will lead away from living.

scorptech

DAGON - But what I was trying, albeit not very well, to point out, is that a socity where such things are held up as Gods, will lead away from living.

I agree with this and that is why I no longer watch any programs that pull your energy down i.e. soaps etc. It's enough working all day and then coming in and watching people fighting, having affairs, getting killed etc.

I not only watch programs (most of the time) that I feel will be educational. I feel better not watching thrash TV, but everyone is different. Even the chat shows have guests plugging their new movie, drama, album etc. Why can't they just get people on that have something desent to say, rather than the same old b*****t all the time.

Dades

scorptech wrote:

I agree with this and that is why I no longer watch any programs that pull your energy down i.e. soaps etc. It's enough working all day and then coming in and watching people fighting, having affairs, getting killed etc.

Couldn't agree more. I cannot watch that stuff.

Now that LOST is finished all I can watch is Discovery Channel and the TG4 weather forcast.

joseph dawton

Hmm. Knowledge is power, it gives us the power to make informed choices or misinformed ones if the source of that knowledge is corrupted.

For that reason I no longer have a TV (I have a video monitor hooked up to video and DVD), also I no longer listen to commericial or buy newspapers. Occasionally I read some news on the internet from carefully selected sources. The pointof this is that I am in control of where I get information, I choose what influences my life rather than accepting the widely accepted sources which are heavily manipulated by commercial and political interests.

As Dagon pointed out if we don't question anything we cannot grow as people. If we choose that easy road then we might as well live like sheep in total ignorance with its spiritual and intellectual darkness. Personally I would rather shuffle off this mortal coil than live under anesthesia!

http://www.electricpublications.com/journey.html

stevenmu

joseph dawton wrote:

For that reason I no longer have a TV (I have a video monitor hooked up to video and DVD), also I no longer listen to commericial or buy newspapers. Occasionally I read some news on the internet from carefully selected sources. The pointof this is that I am in control of where I get information, I choose what influences my life rather than accepting the widely accepted sources which are heavily manipulated by commercial and political interests.

Are you not then running the risk of your selected sources of information becoming stale or even corrupted by isolating yourself from other sources ? Are you not also isolating yourself from learning through what you see as the incorectness of other sources. I don't think I phrased that bit very well, but for example I've learned a couple of good lessons about how people deal with hardships in their life through watching eastenders. Such as the fact that watching the over the top, overblown melodrama in soaps makes people feel better about whatevers wrong in their own life by showing them it could always be worse. This isn't a good thing as it's teaching people to be more accepting of what's wrong, instead of trying to fix it, but I only learned that through watching eastenders myself. Altough I certainly don't make a habit of it.

Dades

joseph dawton wrote:

For that reason I no longer have a TV (I have a video monitor hooked up to video and DVD), also I no longer listen to commericial or buy newspapers. Occasionally I read some news on the internet from carefully selected sources. The pointof this is that I am in control of where I get information, I choose what influences my life rather than accepting the widely accepted sources which are heavily manipulated by commercial and political interests.

Joseph,

I notice your publication had a "Press, TV and Radio campaign planned for September", as well as a listing of numerous reviews from mainstream media publications.

Should I consider myself manipulated into reading your publication?

I prefer to believe that I can draw my own conclusions as to reality after accessing all and any conflicting sources of information.

Congrats BTW...

joseph dawton

Yes, well that's the publisher who does all that!

I suppose it's necessary to publicise anything if you want people to know about it, especially as there are so many books, films etc around. Of course by doing that you are trying to lure people into accepting what you have to offer, a bit of a dilema really but I think what really matters is what it is you are publicising and also the manner in which you go about doing that.

I was not trying to suggest that we all become recluses and shut out the world in my previous comment, it's just a matter of being selective about where you look for info and reading between the lines when information is presented to us in a certain light. I definitely agree that there are lesson to be learned from adversity and Eastenders has that by the lorryload!

Dagon

"I was not trying to suggest that we all become recluses and shut out the world in my previous comment, it's just a matter of being selective"

I know some people who are information junkies, and spend a lot of time immersed in various information, or in the collection and maintenance of paraphernalia that holds information, and I actually find they live quite reclusively and have indeed shut out the world somewhat - all their time is consumed in the world of entertainment or knowledge.

By not using a TV you are freeing up so much energy that would otherwise be lost. Where does this energy go? That is your choice, but there is so much constructive work you can do. For example, get involved with your community, get invloved in various clubs/societies or voluntary groups where you will develop interests and can help out and give your time to others.