Problems with the Legal Profession

jetsonx

I've met about four or five differnet people this week and ALL are having problems with solicitors. Whether it be solicitors overcharging ,solictors
making themselves uncontactable and just plain shoddy practices. In America the profesion is treated with derision but not here...

I am thinking is this just the tip of the iceberg ? Who else here is having problems with this "respectable"... ahem... profession ??

I am wondering if this is the tip of the iceberg ? - If so, I really think the Prime Time crew or some Eddie Hobbes type person could make some really good viewing.

OfflerCrocGod

Respectable? What are you on about? They are the scum of the earth. I know no one who respects them.

easy guv'nor

Between legal opposition to the Motor Insurance Advisory Board, sky-high fees and ambulance chasing solicitors, how anyone can have any respect for the profession is beyond me.

Thats without mentioning the emerging scandal of overcharging regarding claims against the Residential Institutions redress board.

Unbelievable.

Maximilian

Typical ignorant herd mentality as usual.

Plankmonkey

OfflerCrocGod wrote:

Respectable? What are you on about? They are the scum of the earth. I know no one who respects them.

I'm guessing you've never had any dealings with a solicitor nor would you have the first clue about what it is they actually do.

muffler

Plankmonkey wrote:

what it is they actually do.

People mostly;)

Eoin

jetsonx wrote:

I've met about four or five differnet people this week and ALL are having problems with solicitors. Whether it be solicitors overcharging ,solictors
making themselves uncontactable and just plain shoddy practices. In America the profesion is treated with derision but not here...

I am thinking is this just the tip of the iceberg ? Who else here is having problems with this "respectable"... ahem... profession ??

I am in the process of completing on our first apartment, and I can safely say that the most frustrating part of it has been trying to get in contact with the solicitor to answer queries.

It generally takes several phonecalls and/or emails over a couple of weeks to get any type of response - to questions that I'm sure he could quite easily answer off the top of his head.

It also didn't inspire me too much when the first letter sent out had my name spelt wrong (in fact, it was so badly spelt it was nearly just another name altogether), the address of our place wrong, as well as the outstanding balance.

I know what you mean about lawyers being treated with more respect over here rather than in America. I think one of the reasons for this is that it is not an easy process to get qualified over here, while in America there are thousands of dodgy night schools where you can train to be an attorney (I think "attorney" is an American term, as I don't think they distinguish between solicitors and barristers as we do).

Also, they don't carry out the more distasteful practices that they seem to in the states. i.e. Walking around A&E departments in hospitals handing out cards, bribing cops to get notified about car crashes etc.

jetsonx wrote:

I am wondering if this is the tip of the iceberg ? - If so, I really think the Prime Time crew or some Eddie Hobbes type person could make some really good viewing.

Good God no - I would rather continue dealing with my solicitor as is without Mr Hobbs hollering down from his self-imposed crucifix.

I actually think there are plans to make the legal profession a lot more transparant over here, and possibly removing the need for solicitors in certain circumstances, but not too sure about that.

Plankmonkey wrote:

I'm guessing you've never had any dealings with a solicitor nor would you have the first clue about what it is they actually do.

I know what they do involves a lot of knowledge, research etc. But, screw it, most of their customers are professional people who also don't have easy jobs. I know I would never get away with treating my customers like they tend to.

Having said that, conveyance of a new apartment is probably the most straight-forward thing they get to do.

BrianD

Interesting article in the papers over the weekend where some legal eagle was bemoaning the lack of "outrage" amongst the legal profession and that entering law was more of a lifestyle choice (which I interpreted as making extraordinary amounts of money out of your clients). he suggested that if lawyers had some sense of moral outrage they would represent the victims of the redress boards for free without ripping them off.

Now, like doctors, I don't expect lawyers to work for free but there is a certain expectation that they would attend a patient without reward if needs be. ALthough a lawyer is not as essential as a doctor they are still a professional whos purpose is to "defend" the values of our society that we have enshrined into our legal system. Nowadays, most seem to be leeches on society.

Eoin

BrianD wrote:

Interesting article in the papers over the weekend where some legal eagle was bemoaning the lack of "outrage" amongst the legal profession and that entering law was more of a lifestyle choice (which I interpreted as making extraordinary amounts of money out of your clients). he suggested that if lawyers had some sense of moral outrage they would represent the victims of the redress boards for free without ripping them off.

Now, like doctors, I don't expect lawyers to work for free but there is a certain expectation that they would attend a patient without reward if needs be. ALthough a lawyer is not as essential as a doctor they are still a professional whos purpose is to "defend" the values of our society that we have enshrined into our legal system. Nowadays, most seem to be leeches on society

I would hope that some people do enter law to make a positive change in society etc, but I don't blame people for entering law to make money, any more than I would blame people in software, or any other business. Of course, I would expect that there moral decisions involved in how they make their money - i.e. not by ambulance chasing, or ripping people off - but again, I would expect this of any profession.

My point really is that in day-to-day business, like conveyance or other aspects of life where you need a solicitor, that they behave in a professional manner without the automatic arrogance and attitude of "you need me more than I need you" that seems to be inbuilt upon qualifying.

Sangre

Man am I glad I'm in final year law 0_o

Actually in America was summoned to court for underage drinking and I started getting advertisemnts for representation with it and for several days. What the hell? Do they scour the police reports looking for this kind of stuff?

They were advertising their skills as the ability to get rape turned into assault etc.,....blegh >:(

Biggest part of the yellow pages was lawyers etc.,

MontgomeryClift

The legal "profession" is essential to government, business and personal business, yet it regulates itself, answers to nobody and trains its own staff on its own terms. I'd say there's need for change alright. Did you know that in training to become a lawyer (which you can only do in Dublin!), one of the first things you learn is "How to act like a lawyer"! Seriosly!

RuggieBear

my mother had huge issues with her solicitor overcharging her and making stuff up during her divorce.

got no help from their self regulator either....****ing cartel

MorningStar

eoin_s wrote:

I would hope that some people do enter law to make a positive change in society etc,

I don't really know anybody doing any other job than a medical one who think their job is to make society better. Of lawyers and/or trainees I have known they all did it for power in some way or the other.

eoin_s wrote:

My point really is that in day-to-day business, like conveyance or other aspects of life where you need a solicitor, that they behave in a professional manner without the automatic arrogance and attitude of "you need me more than I need you" that seems to be inbuilt upon qualifying.

Actually it is the day to day stuff that makes people dislike them here now. Been involved with property for a while and lawyers are always the problem. They are the ruddest and generally their customer service is the worst. I had my own solisitor shout at me for ringing him after he failed to return my call. I had another tell me he would not do as I said because he had a system of doing things and he didn't like to change it for anyone! The best was where they failed to pay off the mortgage of the property I sold.
Here is a great one they have two years before they finish off property transfers completely. They do forget too!

Eoin

MorningStar wrote:

I don't really know anybody doing any other job than a medical one who think their job is to make society better. Of lawyers and/or trainees I have known they all did it for power in some way or the other.

Actually it is the day to day stuff that makes people dislike them here now. Been involved with property for a while and lawyers are always the problem. They are the ruddest and generally their customer service is the worst. I had my own solisitor shout at me for ringing him after he failed to return my call. I had another tell me he would not do as I said because he had a system of doing things and he didn't like to change it for anyone! The best was where they failed to pay off the mortgage of the property I sold.
Here is a great one they have two years before they finish off property transfers completely. They do forget too!

Sorry, I worded that post very poorly, I meant to say:

My point really is that in day-to-day business, like conveyance or other aspects of life where you need a solicitor, that they should behave in a professional manner without the automatic arrogance and attitude of "you need me more than I need you" that seems to be inbuilt upon qualifying.

muffler

I have yet to meet anyone who has a kind word to say about a solicitor except...... a solicitor of course

thanatos

MorningStar wrote:

I had my own solisitor shout at me for ringing him after he failed to return my call. I had another tell me he would not do as I said because he had a system of doing things and he didn't like to change it for anyone! The best was where they failed to pay off the mortgage of the property I sold.
Here is a great one they have two years before they finish off property transfers completely. They do forget too!

Be honest, how many times had you rang? Was there really a need to ring or were you harassing him/her?

Regarding the "totally unreasonable" solicitor who had a system for doing the things he does everyday and was not willing to change, who the hell are you to be telling him how to do his job? Why the hell do you need a solicitor at all, if you are such an expert?

I agree there are bad solicitors out there, but they are not all bad, it is open season on them at the moment and everyone has to get their boot in. The system is slow and at the end of the day the solicitor's job is to protect you from yourself ie. your ignorance of what can go wrong. Granted, nothing may ever go wrong, but, it does from time to time and you will be glad your solicitor took that extra week or two to do a search or whatever it is that you are currently berrating them for, if it happens to you.......

I AM NOT A SOLICITOR.
But I have heard stories of people selling & buying houses in 3 weeks. I have heard of people being so happy with their solicitor that they send in cards of thanks. For the record, I have bought 2 houses and sold 1 and have no complaints.

All we ever hear about in the news and from people who really have no knowledge of the legal profession and what solicitors do, is frustration at how long the process takes. This is not really anybodies fault. It's like blaming the eircom guy because he cannot give you broadband when you live way out in the sticks and it is just not technically possible, it's like blaming the nurse in the A&E when you cannot get a bed or you have to wait 5 hours for an xray.

The service industry in Ireland is generally in a terribly bad state of affairs, but if the big companies like eircom/esat/health services/bin man/esb/gas/etc. can get away with poor levels of customer service when they have the man power to deal properly with things, then why/how would you expect more from the small companies, as most solicitors offices are. Generally speaking small companies are light on man power and are run off their feet to get by.

As somebody said earlier in the post - this is typical herd mentality..........

Eoin

thanatos wrote:

All we ever hear about in the news and from people who really have no knowledge of the legal profession and what solicitors do, is frustration at how long the process takes. This is not really anybodies fault. It's like blaming the eircom guy because he cannot give you broadband when you live way out in the sticks and it is just not technically possible, it's like blaming the nurse in the A&E when you cannot get a bed or you have to wait 5 hours for an xray.

The service industry in Ireland is generally in a terribly bad state of affairs, but if the big companies like eircom/esat/health services/bin man/esb/gas/etc. can get away with poor levels of customer service when they have the man power to deal properly with things, then why/how would you expect more from the small companies, as most solicitors offices are. Generally speaking small companies are light on man power and are run off their feet to get by.

As somebody said earlier in the post - this is typical herd mentality..........

OK, some, most or all legal procedures are lengthy, and this is not the fault of the solicitors, but of the legal system in general. I don't think that is really what people are complaining about. What they are complaining about is the apparent lack of common courtesy that a lot of solicitors display.

If you are dealing with a small solicitors firm, then you should be only be dealing with one solicitor, and possibly his/her assistant. That person should be able to pull up your details very quickly, and respond to any queries you have. That is the reason why you should expect more from a small company, not the reason you shouldn't. In a larger company, there is a chance you have spoken to 5 or more different people - some of them in different building, cities or even different countries - and this is where there is a greater chance of things falling through the cracks. In a smaller company, this is much easier to trace, so there is less excuse.

I don't find it acceptable to wait a week and 2 or more phone calls to get a response from a solicitor, on what is probably a quick question to answer. If there is a delay for some reason beyond the control of the solicitor, then maybe if they told the customer that there would be less complaints.

However, the tendency seems to only contact the customer when there is an update. In my experience working in a customer facing role, I have found that even if you have no specific update to tell the customer, but you can assure them that you are working on the issue, they will consider it good customer service.

thanatos

eoin_s wrote:

OK, some, most or all legal procedures are lengthy, and this is not the fault of the solicitors, but of the legal system in general. I don't think that is really what people are complaining about. What they are complaining about is the apparent lack of common courtesy that a lot of solicitors display.

Can you imagine the amount of discourteous people they have to put up with everyday and with no customer complaints department to hide behind......

eoin_s wrote:

If you are dealing with a small solicitors firm, then you should be only be dealing with one solicitor, and possibly his/her assistant. That person should be able to pull up your details very quickly, and respond to any queries you have. That is the reason why you should expect more from a small company, not the reason you shouldn't. In a larger company, there is a chance you have spoken to 5 or more different people - some of them in different building, cities or even different countries - and this is where there is a greater chance of things falling through the cracks. In a smaller company, this is much easier to trace, so there is less excuse.

I agree, and I disagree.
I agree that the solicitor should be able to pull up your details very quickly, and respond to any queries you have. But, if they did this, or rather, gave the time for this, they would not get any actual work done at all, as that is all they would be doing everyday - how happy would everyone be then?
In larger companies, they have departments of people and large computer systems to handle all those things and in that regard NOTHING should fall through the cracks.

eoin_s wrote:

However, the tendency seems to only contact the customer when there is an update. In my experience working in a customer facing role, I have found that even if you have no specific update to tell the customer, but you can assure them that you are working on the issue, they will consider it good customer service.

That sounds perfectly reasonable to me ie. I will give you a call when I have some news.....???!!!
If I got a call from someone to tell me that they had no news but just wanted to let me know they were thinking about me, I think I would be a little afraid and I would think that guy had too much time on his hands.

Eoin

thanatos wrote:

Can you imagine the amount of discourteous people they have to put up with everyday and with no customer complaints department to hide behind......

Yes, but this is the same for any small company, and I am paying top dollar for a service, I expect good customer service.

thanatos wrote:

I agree, and I disagree.
I agree that the solicitor should be able to pull up your details very quickly, and respond to any queries you have. But, if they did this, or rather, gave the time for this, they would not get any actual work done at all, as that is all they would be doing everyday - how happy would everyone be then?
In larger companies, they have departments of people and large computer systems to handle all those things and in that regard NOTHING should fall through the cracks.

I am not talking about instant responses, but a customer should not have to wait for a week plus to get a response. This is basic customer service.

thanatos wrote:

That sounds perfectly reasonable to me ie. I will give you a call when I have some news.....???!!!
If I got a call from someone to tell me that they had no news but just wanted to let me know they were thinking about me, I think I would be a little afraid and I would think that guy had too much time on his hands.

Suppose I am buying a new house, and expected an update in a weeks time. However, there is a delay and it will be 2 weeks before any progress can be made. I would rather get a call from the solicitor saying that there is a delay, than have to ring up and ask what the story is.

I know that solicitors are by no means alone in being non-responsive, many tradesmen are just as guilty of this, if not more so. However, when someone carries out a task that most consumers probably don't understand, or at least don't understand the complexities of, then it is that person's responsibility to communicate to the customer why there are delays. Simply not responding is just being lazy or arrogant.

thanatos

eoin_s wrote:

Suppose I am buying a new house, and expected an update in a weeks time. However, there is a delay and it will be 2 weeks before any progress can be made. I would rather get a call from the solicitor saying that there is a delay, than have to ring up and ask what the story is.

This is a perfectly reasonable point, after all, it is only what they promised to do in the first place ie. give you an update in a week. If they neglect to honour such an agreement then the customer has indeed got every right to be agrieved, but lets not go overboard, if they have neglected to contact you with the update it does not mean they are out to sabotage your purchase/sale or whatever else.

I wish all debates could be this reasonable - of course this one did not start that way.....

eoin_s wrote:

I know that solicitors are by no means alone in being non-responsive, many tradesmen are just as guilty of this, if not more so. However, when someone carries out a task that most consumers probably don't understand, or at least don't understand the complexities of, then it is that person's responsibility to communicate to the customer why there are delays.

I could not agree more with you on those points...

eoin_s wrote:

Simply not responding is just being lazy or arrogant.

Sometimes possibly, but again, lets not get carried away, there could be any number of reasons, including the solicitor themselves being messed around by auctioneer/solicitor on other side of the deal/BANK/builder/etc. and they are delaying their update to you based on a promise of an update from one of these e.g. I will be back to you in an hour. A week can go by very fast waiting on such promises - have you ever tried to get broadband installed......in my experience you look back and wonder where the last 3 months went waiting for broadband.(but that's another story)

The important thing to remember is that there are quite a few players involved, and the way the system is at the moment, it appears that they are all wrestling with each other to get the job done as opposed to working cooperatively. There is definate need for change here and I think we should be looking to england and the example they have set over the last decade.

eoin_s wrote:

Yes, but this is the same for any small company, and I am paying top dollar for a service, I expect good customer service.

I would like to see a REAL comparison of figures here in terms of hours of work put in across the scale...
e.g. Solicitors v's Plumbers, Solicitors v's Auctioneers, Solicitors v's Doctors etc.
Only then can we have an informed debate on costs.
At the moment all I can say on the matter of costs is that it is mad expensive in this country for EVERYTHING.......

masterK

The point being made about us everyday folk having no understanding about the legal profession is nonsense, there are experts and specialists in every walk of life where their clients don't understand their area, that doesn't mean they have the right to not treat their clients with dignity and respect. The client is basically paying for a service, in any other walk of life if a client was treated the way solicitors treat theirs they would be out of business in no time. Does that mean if I'm an IT consultant developing software for a paying client that the client has no right to question me because they don't understand IT?

The best story of solicitor incompetence came a couple of months ago when my parents where moving house, the date had been set for the move, they spoke to their solicitor a couple of days beforehand and arranged to come to her office at midday on the day of the move to complete the deal and get the keys for their new house. There was somebody moving in to the old house so they had to leave that day. They rang the solicitor first thing that morning to make sure everything was still OK, she wouldn't even take their call instead she instucted the secretary to tell my parents that they'd have to wait until the following week to complete the deal as she was going to a wedding that day. She knew they had to be out of their house on that day. My parents were nearly left homeless with all of their possessions because of her total incompetence.

Sponge Bob

if they have written evidence of the completion date being agreed (by them and the solicitor) already then its off to the law society for her and make sure she is billed for accomodation and other expenses in full.

masterK

They had all evidence, everything except the final signing was ready to go. The builder of the new house had the keys ready and waiting, he just couldn't hand over the keys until his solicitors received the final documentation. After many hours of threatening phone calls another solicitor in my parents solicitors office stepped in and they got sorted in the end.

Eoin

masterK wrote:

The point being made about us everyday folk having no understanding about the legal profession is nonsense, there are experts and specialists in every walk of life where their clients don't understand their area, that doesn't mean they have the right to not treat their clients with dignity and respect. The client is basically paying for a service, in any other walk of life if a client was treated the way solicitors treat theirs they would be out of business in no time. Does that mean if I'm an IT consultant developing software for a paying client that the client has no right to question me because they don't understand IT?

It isn't nonsense, if you read my post again, I was making the same point you are.

thanatos

masterK wrote:

The point being made about us everyday folk having no understanding about the legal profession is nonsense, there are experts and specialists in every walk of life where their clients don't understand their area, that doesn't mean they have the right to not treat their clients with dignity and respect. The client is basically paying for a service, in any other walk of life if a client was treated the way solicitors treat theirs they would be out of business in no time. Does that mean if I'm an IT consultant developing software for a paying client that the client has no right to question me because they don't understand IT?

The point is not nonsense, we had people earlier trying to get solicitors to change their way of doing things, lack of knowledge would definately inhibit the usefullness of their suggestions, but why let that stop them!!!

As I said already, if a solicitor makes a promise, if anybody makes a promise for that matter, and fails to follow through on it, then the person to whom the promise had been made definately has grounds to feel aggrieved.

In my experience, the people who get on best with solicitors are the ones who let them do their job, the ones who get on worst are the ones who start harassing the solicitors, get themselves all worked up and start threads like this one.........
Obviously this is a generalisation. As with everything, there are exceptions and there are bad solicitors out there, the same as there are bad professionals out there in every profession (even the priesthood, God help us

Have you ever been to see a medical consultant and tried to monopolise his/her time with questions?
Why is there not the same heated debates about them?
I have seen 4 consultants in my time, I paid 540euro in total. The total amount of time I spent in a waiting room was around 3.5-4 hours and the total amount of time spent with all 4 consultants was about 15-20 minutes.

masterK wrote:

My parents were nearly left homeless with all of their possessions because of her total incompetence.

Well that's just inexcusable. But that was a problem with an individual NOT the entire legal profession.....

masterK

thanatos wrote:

Well that's just inexcusable. But that was a problem with an individual NOT the entire legal profession.....

True, but it's indicitive of the sort of problems people constantly seem to have with solicitors. Most people will probably only deal with a solicitor a handful of times in their lives, yet a very large amount of people will have grievances.

The only time I've dealt with a solicitor was a couple of years ago when buying a house, he asked me to come to his office on 3 seperate occasion to complete the purchase, each time I was left waiting in his reception for near an hour only to be told there was a delay and I would have to come back another day. Yes he is another Individual, but it is these individuals that make up the legal profession.

Of course some people will be difficult to deal with and will harass the solicitor needlessly and of course there are some excellent solicitors but the general consensus among people who have dealt with them is that there are a disproportionate number of poor and unreliable ones compared to most other professions.

thanatos

masterK wrote:

..... but the general consensus among people who have dealt with them is that there are a disproportionate number of poor and unreliable ones compared to most other professions.

You see, this is one of my points. THERE IS NO CONSENSUS, but everyone thinks there is.
If I am mistaken then point me to it and I will gladly take it on board.

I feel we are, very much, getting one side of the story.
The Law Society needs to get off their arse and bring some balance to the argument - assuming that is their responsibility? any solicitors out there?
That's actually an interesting question, is there a solicitor taking part in this discussion?
For gods sake don't let that guy with the orange tinted glasses on the late late again.......not to mention that "slopping out" git from limerick....work on that image a bit.

masterK

thanatos wrote:

The Law Society needs to get off their arse and bring some balance to the argument - assuming that is their responsibility? any solicitors out there?

Does the apparent silence from the Law Society on these issues not suggest something in itself? They were very quick to come out and fight their corner when the Motor Accident redress board was being established.

MrPudding

thanatos wrote:

Can you imagine the amount of discourteous people they have to put up with everyday and with no customer complaints department to hide behind......

That is simply not relevent. It is the same excuse apologists for poor service in Dublin Bus use. It is no excuse for drivers and it should not be an excuse for a professional.

Dealing with discourteous people does not aloow you to be discourteous.

MrP

murphym5

I am a solicitor and just came across this by accident. I am a young solicitor. I am qualified three years after enduring a difficult apprenticeship, lots of study and little money for those years. I entered the profession because I believe in a legal system and fariness in Society. I resent and I feel offended by many of the comments posted on this site. I take all my files seriously, I work long hours to ensure a good result for my client. My wage is not fantastic for the stress that comes with the job. I constantly live in fear of being reported to the Law Society even if I have done nothing wrong. People are extremely aggressive and often assume they know better than you in most circumstances and they do not want to hear the bad news that often has to be delivered. I know most of my colleagues give 100% to their clients. It is our reputation that is tarnished if we do not deliver. If we make a mistake on a file we can loose our right to practice law after we worked so hard to get there. There are five solicitors in my firm. Three of them including myself work at the Citizens Information on a voluntary basis in the evenings. I know several of my colleagues in Dublin do work for charity organisations for free. i am not feeling sorry for myself but I do think we are not the worst out there.

Maximilian

I am also a solicitor and let me tell you I work my ass off and try to do the best for my clients. It pisses me off reading some of these idiotic comments basically saying that I am a greedy scumbag leech etc. I'd love to know what some of these people do for a living. How do they contribute to society and the common good, I wonder?

Yes, you will get the odd incompetent or rude solicitor, even occasionally dishonest ones unfortunately. What do you expect? You get all different types of people in any profession. The best advice when choosing a solicitor is to ask around for a recommendation. If you are wronged by a solicitor, a complaints procedure exists with the Law Society. All complaints are investigated without exception and believe me when a complaint is upheld, the Society will show no mercy in discipling that solicitor.

What pisses me off about you whingers is how you immediately decide If one solicitor is useless, then all solicitors must be useless. Its funny, if you heard a story about, say, an architect overcharging or acting unprofessionally - would you be so quick to damn the entire profession? I think not.

If it weren't for lawyers, the world would not be a happy place, as some of you seem to think. You wouldn't be blissfully ambling about under rainbows. Your rights would be trampled all over. Lives would be ruined and people would be wronged without any prospect of redress. I know this because I see it happening all the time. There are more ruthless people in this world than you would imagine there are.

I really don't have the time or the inclination to deal with some of the comments on this thread but let me just say that the ignorance of some people is utterly astounding.