I object to today's Republican march.

murphaph

bonkey wrote:

I've no problem with people deciding that something is offensive. Its the accompanying suggestion / implication that it shouldn't have been allowed, or that it was wrong to be held which I take objection to.

So if a white supremacist organisation (for example) wanted to march, how would we as a society deal with that? I don't want to speak for you but assuming you find that sort of stuff offensive, would you still defend their right to march?

Some marches have to be banned because they offend the sensibilities of the majority of what we call 'decent society'.

(I'm not ignoring your point about O'Connell Street being a main thoroughfare, but would this parade being proposed, in say Blanchardstown, have resulted in local consultation with D15 residents? I don't think it would and I'm pretty sure there have been parades by the OO/Apprentice Boys etc. that passed through central areas of NI cities (The Walls of LondonDerry are in the heart of the city and nationalists complained bitterly about proposals to walk them) that SF etc. have objected to, in fact I would be amazed if there haven't.)

Hagar

Slowly but surely SF are building up their political presence both North and South. The time is approaching when they will not be in power but hold the balance of power.

Won't that be an awful kick in the bollix for some of the whiners on here.

Mighty_Mouse

Mighty_Mouse wrote:

I'm no longer Irish. I just can't call myself an Irishman anymore after those french tourists were attacked in clare, that man in the midlands was killed etc etc etc I want to disassociate myself!

You equate feelings for one's country with feelings one may have for a club in Scotland? Hmmmm.

Hagar wrote:

Won't that be an awful kick in the bollix for some of the whiners on here.

But as long as Sinn Fein fail to distance themselves from murderers and thugs, believe you me the prospect of entering into a coalition with any of the larger parties in the 26 counties remains negligible - although I admit to not being as au fait with feelings in FG and Labour, there is a lot of anti-SF sentiment in FF and it's a new phenomenon. And surely watching the major parties overlook SF, no matter how well they do, may be a bit of a kick in the bollix for those who canvass for that party too...

murphaph

Hagar wrote:

Won't that be an awful kick in the bollix for some of the whiners on here.

Well, unless you're 'on the brew' as they say up north, it'll be an awful kick in the b0ll0cks (I mean wallet) for you too. I hope you enjoyed the days of 65% income tax cos it'll be coming soon to a payslip near you, remember the mid 80's? Bleak depressing kip and that's the kind of 'utopia' that SF would drag us all back to.

Hagar

Deleted User wrote:

there is a lot of anti-SF sentiment in FF and it's a new phenomenon.

That's called fear.

Fianna Fail have been passing themselves off for years as "The Republican Party" but now a true Republican Party is going to take a chunk of their core vote and they don't now what to do. In the meantime they are trying to demonize SF as a rearguard action while they try to extract their heads from their arsé.

Hagar

Hagar wrote:

That's called fear.

It's not. At all. It's called a realisation that SF and violence are inextricably linked. Heck, I would love it if SF posed a realistic alternative for a coalition partner for FF but events in the past year really make that unpalatable.

Hagar wrote:

a true Republican Party

Hmmm, dunno about that. However, in the spirit of reaching out, let's settle on the indisputable, how about 'a violent Republican Party.

Hagar wrote:

a chunk of their core vote

I've yet to find the FF 'core' voter who has changed allegiance to SF tbh. Of course there will be people who voted FF who may vote SF, or Labour, or FG or the Greens next time out. But hardly 'core'.

Hagar wrote:

while they try to extract their heads from their arsé.

Ah, I see that despite recent events, there's still a healthy stockpile of tired clichés that have no real relevance to the debate at hand. Any chance of a 'McDowell is a Fascist' please?

I've two comments to make here:
Comment (1) I see no reason why elected SF T.D's can't have as much right as any other elected T.D to support or form part of any Government in the 26 counties.
(2) The stumbling block to SF being in government in the South is the fact that there are other options.
It's a completely different scenario down here-it's a mismatch of policies that would probably be the main reason militating against SF being in government here.Other parties would find it easier to cut a deal.
If they cut a deal, then fair enough.
Welcome to the cut throat other side then of politics in the south where people eventually vote for their t.d's based on their record in office.
Lets be realistic coalition partners with less baggage than SF have fallen out several and many times in the Dáil.
Their closest(and by that it's not too close) friend in the Dáil should be the labour party and when you have Rory Quinn on today fm on Sunday stating agin that he believes that SF/IRA (Rory's term not mine)were aware of the Northern bank robbery before it happened...I dont hold out much hope of a love affair there.

But then politicians if they are anything, they are adaptable... :rolleyes:

murphaph

Twice before the Dail has voted against a change from PR to FPTP. I wonder if, and it's a big if, but if SF started to gain ground, would we see FF and FG deputies voting together to make the change. On balance I'd prefer FPTP.

bonkey

murphaph wrote:

So if a white supremacist organisation (for example) wanted to march, how would we as a society deal with that? I don't want to speak for you but assuming you find that sort of stuff offensive, would you still defend their right to march?

Some marches have to be banned because they offend the sensibilities of the majority of what we call 'decent society'.

No, they don't. Thats possibly the worst reason for "decent society" to ban anything, in my opinion.

We have laws against incitement to hatred. If you want to organise a march which will implicitly incite hatred, it cannot be allowed to proceed. On the other hand, if you want to organise a protest to insist the government do something about the influx of foreigners ruining our economy and abusing our system....well....we've already had those haven't we.

So I can't answer your question directly unless you put it in context. Is there a history with this organisation? Whats the actual stated purpose of the march? And lets not forget that I'm not ruling out allowing something to proceed with a shedload of gardai on hand to shut it down as soon as a call is made that it has overstepped its limits.

(I'm not ignoring your point about O'Connell Street being a main thoroughfare, but would this parade being proposed, in say Blanchardstown, have resulted in local consultation with D15 residents? I don't think it would and I'm pretty sure there have been parades by the OO/Apprentice Boys etc. that passed through central areas of NI cities (The Walls of LondonDerry are in the heart of the city and nationalists complained bitterly about proposals to walk them) that SF etc. have objected to, in fact I would be amazed if there haven't.)

Fair point. And lets not forget that people do live in and around the O'Connell Street area as well. However, there was no direct linkage between the residents and the protestors, no history of similar protests in similar circumstances, and ultimately no just reason to decide this march offered any sort of grounds to believe it was not suitable. Even the distaste that some people feel towards all things Sinn Fein / Republican isn't enough - they are a legal organisation seeking to exercise their rights.

So what grounds is there to object to the march (as the thread title originally stated). Dislike the sentiment? Sure. Find it in poor taste or offensive to your own sensibilities? Thats fine. But objectionable? Something that shouldn't have been allowed? Sorry - but that just sounds to me as another case of people who support a free and open system as long as it isn't free and open in a away they disagree with.

jc

jank

What!! People cant march down our (not YOUR) capitals main street!

Sure didnt we have these same long winded hot air posts before on boards.ie for example those threads about the Tara protests.

How about starting some threads about those Loyalists who as of tonight are the biggest illeagal and only armed group on this island of ours. And are the only ones still killing (Ah sure its only themselves so thats grand, just like the drug dealers in West Dubin!).

Nah sure what will they do to us! There way up there in the north.

I think the old saying of "Out of sight out of mind" applies here.
Because Sinn Fein have a visual presence in the Republic then they seem to piss off a lot of people, because they have no clue on what road Sinn Fein have taken to be here.

Ive said it before. The Provos and Sinn Fein did not occur out of a Vacumn. Thankfully today is another step in the right direction towards a better Ireland.

Sinn Fein will be a very big force in the next election and IF they hold the balance of power then you can be damm sure that FF will sell their souls and jump into bed with them.

jank

jank wrote:

IF they hold the balance of power then you can be damm sure that FF will sell their souls and jump into bed with them.

No they won't. To do so would be to alienate a sizeable chunk of FF members. Last year, two years ago, many in FF would have welcomed the idea, many abhorred it. Since McCartney and the robbery, the prospect has become unacceptable to rank and file FF.

Diorraing

Deleted User wrote:

No they won't. To do so would be to alienate a sizeable chunk of FF members.

What they are/were doing over the past 30 years was alienating a "sizeable chunk" of FF members. I shouldn't have to remind you that ordinary Fianna Fail mebers are proud of being "The Republican Party". Many at grassroots level would be thrilled to see FF go into coalition with a peaceful, democratic SF (which is what we now have) as it would restore some of the party's republican principles. Lets not forget that FF's number 1 goal is a United Ireland and number 2 goal is the restoration of the Irish Language. These goals are surprisingly similar (IDENTICAL!!!) to Sinn Féin's priorities.
Many of us Fianna Fáilers have become increasingly frustrated with the attitude of Dublin Governments to the north (i.e. leaving nationalists undefended at the hands of a sectarian police force and army: Battle of Bogside, Bloody Sunday, endless amounts of collusion, the list goes on).
Now that IRA has fully decommisioned FF and SF can walk hand in hand into a new era of republicanism that will see the end of British occupation in this island.

Hagar

Lets not forget that FF's number 1 goal is a United Ireland and number 2 goal is the restoration of the Irish Language.

So they say, but in reality SF have done more to achieve these goals than FF.
FF politicians seem to be more interested in property development than anything else.

Many of us Fianna Fáilers have become increasingly frustrated with the attitude of Dublin Governments to the north (i.e. leaving nationalists undefended at the hands of a sectarian police force and army: Battle of Bogside, Bloody Sunday, endless amounts of collusion, the list goes on).

And just who made up the majority of these Dublin Govts over the last 30yrs? FF are the main culprits

I maintain the real Republican element of FF is dis-affected with the party and will defect to SF now that the guns have been taken out of the equation.

Hagar

Hagar wrote:

So they say, but in reality SF have done more to achieve these goals than FF.

With respect-what do you think 20 or 30 years of SF supporting bombing shooting and killing did for reconciliation between unionists and nationalists?
You may not want to hear this but dropping the bullet campaign was the only option left open to the IRA in recent years given that their rock of support in the U.S.A has no time for terrorism any more.
I see yesterday as welcome and overdue but it's was more of a necessity than an achievement-colouring it otherwise is see through hype.

Granted Adams and McGuinness do deserve praise for convincing hardliners of that.
Thats all though.This talk of momentous opportunities and golden new era's is total spin and nonsense given that most Irish people never supported what the IRA did and in fact abhorred it.

To be totally and utterly frank any hard liner that didn't see(or doesnt see) the light as regards the unacceptability of bombing and shooting is/was seriously deluding themselves.

mike65

Diorraing wrote:

What they are/were doing over the past 30 years was alienating a "sizeable chunk" of FF members. I shouldn't have to remind you that ordinary Fianna Fail mebers are proud of being "The Republican Party". Many at grassroots level would be thrilled to see FF go into coalition with a peaceful, democratic SF (which is what we now have) as it would restore some of the party's republican principles. Lets not forget that FF's number 1 goal is a United Ireland and number 2 goal is the restoration of the Irish Language. These goals are surprisingly similar (IDENTICAL!!!) to Sinn Féin's priorities.

Eh?

I think Feel and Fall wil require something of greater substance than a wishy-washy backing of the Irish language and the 4th green field to overlook all the polices on which there is substaintial difference like the economy, tax and spend, Europe and certain social issues like abortion on which the Provos are apparently a little more in favour of allowing.

Mike.

Blackjack

Diorraing wrote:

Deleted User wrote:

No they won't. To do so would be to alienate a sizeable chunk of FF members.

What they are/were doing over the past 30 years was alienating a "sizeable chunk" of FF members. I shouldn't have to remind you that ordinary Fianna Fail mebers are proud of being "The Republican Party". Many at grassroots level would be thrilled to see FF go into coalition with a peaceful, democratic SF (which is what we now have) as it would restore some of the party's republican principles. Lets not forget that FF's number 1 goal is a United Ireland and number 2 goal is the restoration of the Irish Language. These goals are surprisingly similar (IDENTICAL!!!) to Sinn Féin's priorities.
Many of us Fianna Fáilers have become increasingly frustrated with the attitude of Dublin Governments to the north (i.e. leaving nationalists undefended at the hands of a sectarian police force and army: Battle of Bogside, Bloody Sunday, endless amounts of collusion, the list goes on).
Now that IRA has fully decommisioned FF and SF can walk hand in hand into a new era of republicanism that will see the end of British occupation in this island.

While they are 2 issues on which the goals may be the same, I doubt very much you'll ever see FF and SF together when it comes to Government. Bad and all as FF may be, I can't imagine they'd make happy bedfellows with SF when there are plenty others around to make up the numbers if they needed to.

Hagar

I never mentioned reconciliation. I think in terms of re-unification. Real estate if you like to think of it that way. If the decendants of the planted Scots don't like it, well...

I'll even wave to them from the quays at Larne as they head back to Stranrare if that'll help

Diorraing

mike65 wrote:

Eh?

I think Feel and Fall wil require something of greater substance than a wishy-washy backing of the Irish language and the 4th green field to overlook all the polices on which there is substaintial difference like the economy, tax and spend, Europe and certain social issues like abortion on which the Provos are apparently a little more in favour of allowing.

Mike.

Economic differences don't seem to come into the equation when FG decides to go into coalition with the so-called socialists in Labour/Democratic Left.
To think for one moment that parties in this state go into coalition because of similar views on the economy/tax/spenditure is absurd - otherwise FF and FG would have been in coalition years ago! The politics of this country have, at grassroots level anyway, been dominated by the Civil War.
The fact of the matter is SF want power, FF don't care who they get into bed with as long as they're not Fine Gael. If Fine Gael could go into power with Clann na Poblachta anything is possible!!!

murphaph

Hagar wrote:

I never mentioned reconciliation. I think in terms of re-unification. Real estate if you like to think of it that way. If the decendants of the planted Scots don't like it, well...

There's not a lot one can say other than :rolleyes:

Hagar wrote:

I'll even wave to them from the quays at Larne as they head back to Stranrare if that'll help

And what about when the celts want to kick your viking ass back to Sweden? :rolleyes:

Ireland has never been a single political entity, deal with it.

Hagar

murphaph wrote:

And what about when the celts want to kick your viking ass back to Sweden? :rolleyes:

Well I'll already be at the quays won't I?

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

mike65

Diorraing wrote:

Economic differences don't seem to come into the equation when FG decides to go into coalition with the so-called socialists in Labour/Democratic Left.
To think for one moment that parties in this state go into coalition because of similar views on the economy/tax/spenditure is absurd - otherwise FF and FG would have been in coalition years ago! The politics of this country have, at grassroots level anyway, been dominated by the Civil War.
The fact of the matter is SF want power, FF don't care who they get into bed with as long as they're not Fine Gael.

I think there's a qualitive difference between Garret Fitzgerald getting into bed with Dick Spring and Bertie saying to Gerry 'which side do your prefer?' Not that Grizly can be in government down here of course which might be an issue in itself as the Norn Iron provos look south and get pissed off with not being in power down south. FF do care i think, and they also have the luxury of being able to govern with the PDs or with indepentents as back up.

SF do want power after all its why they exist and strangly part of me kinda likes the idea, if they don't get any government dept of significance. After a few years they'll be as compromised as the others and they'll loose the cachet of being anti-establishment/alternative etc.

Mike.

Diorraing

Diorraing wrote:

FF don't care who they get into bed with as long as they're not Fine Gael.

On the contrary, FF have only entered into coalition with two political parties, being Labour and the PDs.

I know it's easy to throw out those kind of general statements about FF craving power, but you really should examine the facts. Perhaps, and I hate to state something very radical but you should consider this theory, but perhaps they have been in Government quite a lot because they get more votes than any other party?

oscarBravo

Deleted User wrote:

On the contrary, FF have only entered into coalition with two political parties, being Labour and the PDs.

Um. Wasn't there a short-lived FF/FG coalition?

Or did I hallucinate it...? Anything's possible these days...

oscarBravo

oscarBravo wrote:

Um. Wasn't there a short-lived FF/FG coalition?

Huh?

I tell you what, I would welcome it.

murphaph

oscarBravo wrote:

Um. Wasn't there a short-lived FF/FG coalition?

Unlike the german SPD/CDU(CSU) team-up I doubt it could be called a 'grand coalition'!

I dont recall there ever being an FF/FG coalition.
There was the "Tallaght strategy" in the late eighties and ninties when FG decided not to oppose the FF govt so as they could impliment economic polices the purpose of which were to stave off us being taken over by the world bank.
Yes we were broke then with personal taxes approaching 65%-most of which was going to service the huge national debt rather than our pretty poor(by todays standards public services and infrastructure)

Makes me wonder about the moaning sometimes.Regardless of ones political colour, things have never been so good,thats why I'd urge caution dickying about with the current economic policies and taxation, both corporate and personal.
I'd hate to see us heading back to the abyss that was the 80's :eek:

rsynnott

Hagar wrote:

At least they use a .ie domain which is more than can be said for many state / semi-state bodies. All the airports for instance.

What on earth has that got to do with anything?

I personally found the march laughable, but I certainly respect the right of any group who wants to march to march, no matter how much I disagree with them.

Possibly support for absorbing a nation against the will of the majority of its people can be judged from that 4000 person figure, many of them from the North. That's fewer people than march in the gay pride parade, for example.

RicardoSmith

Is reunification an issue for the majority of the population in the republic? I'd say the majority of people would be sympathtic to the idea, but would have more interest in more immediate economic and social issues that effect them. In fact since NI is economically dependent on the UK, most people would reckon that reunification would make those economic and social issues even worse.

When I see marches like this, its usually causes havoc with the traffic, that lasts for hours, making my hour commute 2 or 3 hours. Its a guaranteed way to loose public support if you ask me.

breandan

RicardoSmith wrote:

Is reunification an issue for the majority of the population in the republic?

As a Republican I dont really care if it is or not!
This may sound like a horrible thing to say and Im sure Im gonna get a shed load of abuse on this forum for saying it but its my view that its upto the Republican movement to make the ending of partition the number one priority for this country and to force the people to face it by any means necassary.
And yes at a future date if that again calls for war to acheive this goal then so be it.
I agree with the present strategy adopted by mainstream Republicanism and I sincerly hope the peaceful route works but if not then other ways may again at some point in the future have to be found.