Brake Or Clutch

Supercell

I've been driving a bike for about 10 years now and had my first driving lessson in a car a couple of days ago.

I had real problems with the clutch, on the bike i clutch and brake, in the car the instructer insisted on brake while in gear (unless it was close to traffic lights), which seemed strange to me as surely this stresses the engine and prevents a feel for the inertia on the car .

My question to the car drivers is..do you brake without clutching ?, to me it seems totally wrong..but being a biker till now maybe its right for a car ..thoughts ?

junkyard

I'd generally clutch and brake unless I was moving fairly rapid... I could be wrong, but I never cooked a clutch yet!!

loftus

I’ve just done an advanced driving course and they said you never use break and clutch together at any other time other than coming to a complete stop.

alanlouthzzr

Your instructor is correct, the engine braking will help slow the car down.
On the bike I also use the engine to slow me down while braking.
In both cases I often change down a gear to increase the engine braking.
This also means that you are in the right gear to apply the power when needed.
I've averaged over 45000 miles over the past 19 years and I haven't worn a clutch or blown an engine yet.
Fingers crossed!
Alan.

30-6shooter

Why would you clutch just cause your braking? You brake to slow, clutch if your braking down rapidly and need to drop to a lower gear.

Supercell

30-6shooter wrote:

Why would you clutch just cause your braking? You brake to slow, clutch if your braking down rapidly and need to drop to a lower gear.

Well on the bike I know exactly how far the bike will travel and i know exactly how the brake will bite, it just seems more natural, seems I've got to practise this for car driving, suprised that its so different.

DublinWriter

Longfield wrote:

My question to the car drivers is..do you brake without clutching ?, to me it seems totally wrong..but being a biker till now maybe its right for a car ..thoughts ?

Fado Fado when I was getting lessons I was told that's called 'riding' the clutch and a potential failure point.

So I practised braking till near engine stall, then applying the clutch. But once I passed the test I went back to my old bad habits and have been happily wearing out clutch pressure plates for the past 10 years.

Supercell

alanlouthzzr wrote:

Your instructor is correct, the engine braking will help slow the car down.
On the bike I also use the engine to slow me down while braking.
In both cases I often change down a gear to increase the engine braking.
This also means that you are in the right gear to apply the power when needed.
I've averaged over 45000 miles over the past 19 years and I haven't worn a clutch or blown an engine yet.
Fingers crossed!
Alan.

I do agree that engine braking has its place, ie in traffic, but at least on the bike..i like to keep things simple..ie just the brake to slow down ..nothing else., its far more smooth and easier to predict than the engine ..but that maybe because thats the way i've always driven (with no accidents ever).

Are there any car drivers that feel the same ?

lazylad

Most of the time I know that I have to make a full stop I put her into neutral and break gently coming up to the traffic lights. The rev meter shoots down and the engine feels almost dead as its slowing down and its saving petrol too.

To answer the question, yes you can break without using the clutch but make sure the car is in the right gear ie no higher than 3rd or else she's at higher risk of cutting out on you.
Best thing before coming to red light. slow down with break gently, reduce gear to third while slowing down, gentle break, slow down and then use clutch and break to make a full stop. Thats how I was aware its suppost to be done. But Im talking about a car.

I normally have her in neutral while she's still moving before I stop but dont do that in your test.

slade_x

To start Coasting is a very dangerous habit to get into

you can brake without using the clutch as long as you stay above a speed thats suitable for the gear your in

for example if your in 3rd and want to come down to 20kph or under then you have to clutch or the engine will stall and so on for each gear, The higher the gear, the sooner you'll need to clutch

lazylad

I agree there slade. The car feels less controllable while coasting.

Squirrel

lazylad wrote:

I agree there slade. The car feels less controllable while coasting.

That's pretty much because it is, engine breaking comes in useful, going down a hill I wouldn't want to be in a oasting car

seamus

Generally you shouldn't clutch and brake together. If you're coming to a stop, leave the vehicle in gear, and brake, depressing the clutch before the engine cuts out (don't let it get to the struggling stage). If you're slowing down, you should slow the vehicle down, release the brake, change to the appropriate gear and go - though this is quite hard to get used to and to perfect, especially if you're used to clutch braking.

Idleater

loftus wrote:

I’ve just done an advanced driving course and they said you never use break and clutch together at any other time other than coming to a complete stop.

I have been reliably informed from my car driving instructor (years ago) and recently on the advanced bike course that this is the correct way to brake.

I think that it is far more dangerous to pull in the clutch while you brake on a bike as this removes the drive from the back wheel which is a major stabilising factor. Braking while the bike is unstable would not be recommended as far as I am concerned.

As someone else mentoined, if you use the engine to brake (also assuming you keep in the correct gear for the speed), then you are in the correct gear to slow down or speed up again as required.

I think I remember being told that the "correct" gear to be in is the one where if you lift off the throttle your speed noticably decreases (not coasting) and if you apply more throttle your speed easily increases (without the engine labouring).

BTW, this applies to cars and bikes and I suppose any motor based machine.

L.

Ernie Ball

It hasn't been mentioned here but one of the main reasons you shouldn't clutch while you brake (especially on a bike) is that you may lock the drive wheels if you brake with the clutch in, ABS or no. If the car is in gear, you won't lock the drive wheels.

Seth Brundle

Im reminded of a libre day out marshaling in Mondello (@ turn 3). Anyway, a young fella in an uno kept clutching whilst going around the bend (and its a long bend!). The car would approach us at full/high revs, and then suddenly the engine went quiet when it passed us.
IIRC he was in the gravel ywice that day for this - once because his foot slipped off the clutch and the car suddenly regained its drive and spun!

SouperComputer

If the car is in gear, you won't lock the drive wheels.

its almost as easy to lock the wheels with the engine at idle than with the clutch in.

jayok

hat's pretty much because it is, engine breaking comes in useful, going down a hill I wouldn't want to be in a oasting car

Engine braking is a normal family car is no more. Well at least there's no need for it. The use of engine braking was back in the day when the brakes on cars were far more inefficient than they are today. With the standard usage of front disc brakes on all modern cars the brakes don't actually need assistance from the engine to stop. As such clutching and braking are two separate actions unless as seamus said you are coming to a stop.

The idea of this is that the brakes reduce the cars speed to the desired level, where as the clutch accelerator is all about bringing or driving the car at the desired speed. The are supposed to work independantly. This notion was developed as the "system of car control" by the UK police.

There is no other better way to do it.

BTW This applies to cars - I've no idea about bikes.

layke

From a person who has driven both:

Use the engine to slow yourself. If you hit slippery terrain and your just using the brakes you run the risk of your wheels locking, causing a skid.

Usng the engine while braking creates resistance to the speed you are going without locking the wheels nice helping you to brake faster and with less risk.

Why do you think automatics have engine brakes? Same principal as above.

Just a note: putting your foot down on the clutch while hitting the brake is called 'coasting' and you WILL fail your driving test if you do it.

unkel

layke wrote:

Usng the engine while braking creates resistance to the speed you are going without locking the wheels

Well put. As said clutch and brake should only be used for coming to a halt. May I add to that slowing down for obstructions like ramps, or crossings where visibility is good and coming to a halt might not be necessary and staying in second gear is the best option?

Creamy Goodness

my instructor always got me into the habit of,

do all your braking first
assess the situation in front of you
change down to relevant gear (ie. 4th down to 2nd etc.)
or put the clutch in just before you stop completely.

coasting is a really bad habit and i find i do it myself sometimes :S i know the car is uncontrollable when i do it i just don't know why i do it.

slade_x

Even though the right answer has been posted

http://cssdrivertraining.com/manualprimer.htm

Which pedal should I press first, the brake or the clutch?
In general when stopping, use the brake first if you're driving at higher speeds, and use the clutch first when you driving at very low speeds. The higher the gear, the sooner you'll need to clutch. For example, if you're coming off a freeway exit ramp in 5th. gear, you'll need to clutch before the car reaches 40 km/h (25 mph), otherwise the engine will stall. In the beginning, practice using both pedals in synchronization for stopping, until you get more practice gearing down. Remember that the clutch is always depressed down to the floor, whereas the brake is only pressed as much as needed. Practice separating the movement of both feet - they should operate the pedals independent of each other, but in varying combinations, i.e. clutch and gas, clutch and brake.

SouperComputer

only pain in the arse is if you lock the driven wheels and leave the clutch engaged, it obviously takes longer to unlock as it has to overcome the compression of the engine.

Just thought that there might be an enviromental aspect to this. When you lift off the power, normally once the engine is above idle speed, the Injection system cuts off the fuel. Maybe that why they are against it in the test?

I used to drop the car into neutral as soon as I knew I was going to stop. Now I leave it in gear and there seems to be a slight improvement in economy.

Supercell

Thanks all, appears that my instructor is indeed correct and not only stating a personal preference which was what I thought it was, looks like I'll just have to adjust!

saobh_ie

On my bike I would never consider coasting, riding along on the brake with the clutch in. It’s just a waste of nice steady powerful braking force. I’d also be concerned that if I needed to start moving again I wouldn’t really know what’s going to happen if I clutch out… here I need to know more,

What speed/gear/distance from stopping, do you pull the clutch in on the bike? If its five kilometres per hour, first gear, one meter or something less than walking pace cool but otherwise I’m baffled as to why.

In the car, I’m doing lessons now at the moment too, I’ve been told to brake, engine brake (clutch out) to a halt. And stop in third gear, second gear, whatever. I always work down through the gears to at least second before coming to a halt incase I get the opportunity to continue on without stopping or “HAVE TO MOVE RIGHT THE F*** NOW” (which has only happened once, although on that occasion I’d been stopped waiting for a gap on a roundabout when I heard squealing tires).

So basically, don’t coast. Brake and engine brake, although cars people on provisionals get to drive don't have any noticable engine braking, but you've missed out on real engine braking by clutching your bike so errr... don't worry about it.

layke

Drop to second and once you've hit a slow comfortable speed hit the clutch and use your brakes to come to a complete stop. As for how slow should you be going, well every car is different, engine type and size. You just have to get used to the way your car behaves.

On my car, a civic 1.6 she starts to choke about 5-4mph so for me thats when I clutch. This should be roughly the same for you.

Tip, get out of the bad habbits now. If you do it when you start driving it's far far easier. Also I would suggest taking the IAM Advanced Provisional test while your waiting for your Full license test to come through. This will reduce insurance costs.

RicardoSmith

Lots of reasons why coasting is bad.

If you braking and clutch, and say you hit a patch of ice or oil. You can't put the power in to correct it.

If you are coasting and some guy rear ends you, they will launch you forward perhaps into on coming traffic.

If you are costing and a car coming the other way swerves into you lane, you can't move out of the way as quick.

Personally I always use the engine to slow down or when breaking. It saves wear and tear on the brakes, and on the clutch. Since you are using both brakes ad clutch less. But its a more relaxing and less tiring way to drive.

I used to commute across the wicklow gap and I could come down with rarely using the brakes. Whereas other people would be using the brakes and clutch every bend, then accelerating and repeating the whole thing. Whereas I could stay in gear, following letting the car slow itself down and then not accelerating too hard between bends.

It requires you read the road well ahead, and be more aware of speed you are travelling at. Your driving becomes smoother.