IRA Decommissioning

murphaph

Tomohawk wrote:

What difference will a 32 county Ireland make?

Increased taxes in the existing Republic, decreased level of service in same, decreased level of service in existing NI, increased unemployment in existing NI (1/3 of all employed people in NI are public servants!). Not a pretty picture really. Better off with 2 peaceful sovereign states inhabiting this island.

miju

MrPudding wrote:

Hmmm, apparently as the IRA approved the 2 witnesses they are not independent.

MrP

of course they would have to approve them this was the compromise they came to when the IRA ruled out photos being taken for the Unionists to mull over and make posters out of

murphaph

murphaph wrote:

Better off with 2 peaceful sovereign states inhabiting this island.

Materially perhaps, but what about the old chicken soup for the soul Murphaph?

Hagar

Ian Paisley, for a so called "Man of God" he has very little faith in his fellow man.

Bu then again faith was probably an extra $5 in the degree mill where he purchased his doctorate in theology.

netwhizkid

Ah its election time again, Vladimir Lenin ahem Bertie the red is looking to dump Mary and get into bed with Sinn Fein, and Sinn Fein knows this and will do anything to get more votes down south. I hope this plan fails as i want Kenny for Taoiseach and a Fine Gael/Labour Coalition government. Anyway no matter what is done up north remember

Ian Paisley wrote:

Ulster is not for sale.

no matter what is done they will say no, until the referendum is called and the fca sent in to keep the peace, then and only then will peace prevail.

Capt'n Midnight

Tomohawk wrote:

What difference will a 32 county Ireland make?

murphaph wrote:

Increased taxes in the existing Republic, decreased level of service in same, decreased level of service in existing NI, increased unemployment in existing NI (1/3 of all employed people in NI are public servants!). Not a pretty picture really.

You are also forgetting that the unionists would hold the balance of power as you'd get a majority with FF+Unionists or FG+Unionists+Other party.

Hagar

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

You are also forgetting that the unionists would hold the balance of power as you'd get a majority with FF+Unionists or FG+Unionists+Other party.

ROFLCOPTER Move this to Humour somebody, I'm just off to change my underpants.

oscarBravo

dlofnep wrote:

Ian Paisley is a threat to peace in Northern Ireland. He must be removed at all costs... Ian Paisley is the lowest of the low. Rid him from this land.

"Will no-one rid me of this meddlesome priest?"

jmcc

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

You are also forgetting that the unionists would hold the balance of power as you'd get a majority with FF+Unionists or FG+Unionists+Other party.

As opposed to FF+PDs? What change would that be?

Regards...jmcc

patzer117

Firstly I do believe the IRA have decomissioned all the weapons the leadership were able to get hold of. Obviously some dissident republicans remain with weapons as do splinter groups. It is a huge day for the Island, but unfortunately one that will not be recognised for a long while. P O'Neill let his name be sullied during the McCarthy affair and the Northern Bank robbery and the Unionists have every reason not to trust the IRA/SF. They should however trust the IMC and Gen de Chas.

As for what happens next it'll be a long stalemate. If I were Ian Paisley I wouldn't go into government with SF - in the same way that Michael McDowell wouldn't. It's not because of the IRA it's because you look at things from such a different perspective both completely contradictory and the idea of sharing power seems ludricous to him.

Hopefully a compromise can be worked out, but I wouldn't count on it. At the moment the ball is completely in the Loyalist court - either for the paramilitaries to decommision or for the UUP or DUP to step forward and take some initiative in the issue.

Patzer

Dempsey

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

You are also forgetting that the unionists would hold the balance of power as you'd get a majority with FF+Unionists or FG+Unionists+Other party.

LOL and Ian Paisley is P O'Neill's brother.

supersheep

That is one hell of a scary thought: Ian Paisley (or even worse, his son) in power down here. If that happened, I can suddenly see Ireland becoming a lot more politicised, and probably a resurgence of violent groups. Not saying that I would advocate the removal of bigots like him or anything... I have no problem with Unionists in power. I have a problem with bigoted scum like him in power.
The biggest problem with decommissioning is that the Unionists can totally ignore it if they want to, because no-one knows how many guns the PIRA has, not even its commanders. It's kind of like a squirrel burying its nuts, and forgetting where some of them are. I'd say they've often put down a few guns somewhere, and then the guy who buried them or was responsible for them was killed. Now, it probably became more organised as time went on, but there will never be a total confirmed inventory. So the Unionists can just decide that they don't like it, and stay out.

dent

It was a great day for Ireland especially for those in Northern Ireland. Anything that continues to promote peace deserves our praise. I'd imagine this was a huge step for many in the IRA and I never thought I'd see the day.

The Unionists however are going to be sceptical and I don't think they can be blamed for being cautious. We are also waiting on a report on IRA criminality.

The exception is of course Paisley who thrives on division and bigotry.

I really hope that some level headed members of his party will start to engage with SF to at least talk about getting the assembly back on its feet.

Hard times are still ahead and I hope this will be another turning point in the north's history.

Hobbes

supersheep wrote:

because no-one knows how many guns the PIRA has, not even its commanders

I believe the UK had estimates of what they believe they had and they met/exceeded those estimates (they were not told these estimates beforehand afaik). Even so the point is that even if all guns are not handed over and its later found to be true they didn't do this then it would be a serious blow to the PIRA.

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet. But I saw Ian getting all uppity that he didn't see the weapons destroyed. Should they not invited him along to view the destruction? Or would of that been pointless?

dent

Hobbes wrote:

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet. But I saw Ian getting all uppity that he didn't see the weapons destroyed. Should they not invited him along to view the destruction? Or would of that been pointless?

I think it would have been very dangerous to include Paisley. He could simply lie about what he saw or rub it republican face's. Either way I think he would do more damage than good.

Hagar

Hobbes wrote:

But I saw Ian getting all uppity that he didn't see the weapons destroyed. Should they not invited him along to view the destruction? Or would of that been pointless?

The frustration of not seeing it happen will haunt him to his grave. Which leaves me with mixed feelings. Should he die soon and give us all a break? Or should his torment go on? I just can't decide.

BaZmO*

Thing I don't get about Paisley is that he keeps going on about the IRA being involved in the Northern Bank robbery, but when he's asked to provide evidence he puts his full faith in the British and Irish intelligence.

However, when it comes to the completion of the Decommissioning he is unwilling to accept the word of the same intelligence groups. :rolleyes:

B.

Dempsey

I hope in january when the IRA criminality is found to be completely dead and Sinn Fein accept the PSNI that Tony Blair will tell Paisley "its the Unionists next" and then we can see some real long term peace, power-sharing in NI and we'll closer than we have ever been to a united ireland.

As Eamon Dunphy said on Q&A last night, both sides NOW have to wipe the slate clean and look to the future. I think peace depends on this happening.

Milo

the unionist demand of seeing an inventory of IRA weapons, to put their minds at ease, can now be achieved once they convince their paramilitaries to "put weapons beyond use" instead of using them to attack nationalist areas, riot and attack GAA supporters coming back from the All-Ireland!

If that is in fact the real reason they want to see the inventory!

patzer117

dent wrote:

I think it would have been very dangerous to include Paisley. He could simply lie about what he saw or rub it republican face's. Either way I think he would do more damage than good.

He definitely could do more damage than good - by letting him, the IRA's sworn enemy see theit decommisioning would have been a kick in the teeth to the IRA. Many members simply would not have accepted it and would have split like they did to form the Real IRA (and look where that ended up - Omagh). By publishing a photograph or an inventory we could have a situation where DUP election posters would be pictures of decommisioning under the slogan 'Look what we did'.

I honestly think that Paisley knows the game is up, and is squirming for some wriggle room. In this situation it should be 'innocent until proven guilty' - treat the IRA as fully decommisioned until we see otherwise.

Patzer

cal29

MrPudding wrote:

Hmmm, apparently as the IRA approved the 2 witnesses they are not independent.

MrP

So do you believe they are lying

cal29

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

You are also forgetting that the unionists would hold the balance of power as you'd get a majority with FF+Unionists or FG+Unionists+Other party.

Or FF + FG or maybe FF + SDLP or FF+ SF or maybe even DUP+UUP+SF+SDLP a reverse takeoverhttp://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=3405809#
Big Grin

Seriously after Reunification I would expect a realignment of parties Sections of the SDLP belong in FF and some in the Labour party I think the PDs could happily exist in the UUP or vice versa. Is there any real need for FG and FF I cant see any difference. SF will probably tear themselves apart and realise that most of them had little in common other than get the brits out.

Hobbes

cal29 wrote:

So do you believe they are lying

Ians going through the motions at the moment..

First "We don't have any proof! I want photos!" then goes to get proof. Gets proof of some kind as he comes back saying "The witnesses were not independant!". So people ask him does he think the people are lying? Now his latest is that the IRA don't have weapons but some weapons ended up in splinter factions. Although TBH I'd love to see the report he saw about that.

cal29

Chances are that there are weapons that the PIRA have lost or forgotten about the DUP are probably hoping some rusty revolver will turn up in a field somewhere to prove the whole thing is a charade.

Of course there is the chance that "dissident republicans" who may be in possesion of arms formerly belonging to the provos might help them out by allowing the PSNI or Gardai to find a dump with " provo" weapons

Cork

Dempsey wrote:

As Eamon Dunphy said on Q&A last night, both sides NOW have to wipe the slate clean and look to the future. I think peace depends on this happening.

The slate is not going to be wiped clean. The criminal assets bereau is going to hunt down proceeds of crime. Victims of carnage over 35 years are out there. People have to live with the aftermath of violence.

The slate was not wiped clean after the civil war down here - Why then do we expect that more of the victims of violence in Northern Ireland.

Seriously after Reunification

Seriously - all partys recognise that NI is part of the UK as long as the majority want that to be the case.

Karlusss

Has it not occurred to anyone that if the Union was irreparably destroyed, "Unionist" parties would just cease to exist? What would they stand for, if their key combining cause for being around is no longer there?

Paisley's gonna stall and look for concessions as re: the Royal Irish Regiment and promises for the funding of infrastructure from London for Northern Ireland before a return to Stormont. Or so I'm hearing. On the radio.

Dempsey

Cork wrote:

The slate is not going to be wiped clean. The criminal assets bereau is going to hunt down proceeds of crime. Victims of carnage over 35 years are out there. People have to live with the aftermath of violence.

The slate was not wiped clean after the civil war down here - Why then do we expect that more of the victims of violence in Northern Ireland

You'd have to hear his full view on the point. He put it well.

SkepticOne

Karlusss wrote:

Has it not occurred to anyone that if the Union was irreparably destroyed, "Unionist" parties would just cease to exist? What would they stand for, if their key combining cause for being around is no longer there?

They would then stand for restoration of the union with Britain presumably. Nationalist parties would stand for the continuation (or completion) of a united Ireland and stand against a union with Britain though they would now be in the position of defending the status quo just like the unionists were before this hypothetical change.

murphaph

SkepticOne wrote:

They would then stand for restoration of the union with Britain presumably. Nationalist parties would stand for the continuation (or completion) of a united Ireland and stand against a union with Britain though they would now be in the position of defending the status quo just like the unionists were before this hypothetical change.

Could you imagine what would happen if a majority of people voted for ireland to rejoin the union, Adams et al would be sick!

supersheep

Hobbes wrote:

I believe the UK had estimates of what they believe they had and they met/exceeded those estimates (they were not told these estimates beforehand afaik). Even so the point is that even if all guns are not handed over and its later found to be true they didn't do this then it would be a serious blow to the PIRA.

My point was more that the IRA have more than likely lost weapons, that they cannot account for, and like people have said now, there is a risk that more will be found. And the estimates have been common knowledge for a while now - admittedly with some variation, for example 800 - 1100 rifles. That's a hell of a range. Unless the IRA decommissioned 1200 rifle, they're going to have a problem.
Perhaps the most telling point was the amount of loose ammunition the IICD found, implying that the IRA went to a lot of trouble and rounded up every single bullet they could find, not just what was in their dumps...

Hagar wrote:

The frustration of not seeing it happen will haunt him to his grave. Which leaves me with mixed feelings. Should he die soon and give us all a break? Or should his torment go on? I just can't decide.

Oh, what a nice dilemma to be in... But thing is, he has a son who's just as bad, so when he dies we won't get a break. So my vote is for him to go on for ages. Especially if he has to watch Ireland unify...

murphaph wrote:

Could you imagine what would happen if a majority of people voted for ireland to rejoin the union, Adams et al would be sick!

The whole country? Can you see that happening? Give up our freedom? That is something that I would oppose by any means necessary. I will not swear allegiance to any foreign leader - this is not an anti-British thing, it's ANY foreign country.