Question

RiderOnTheStorm

sorry for long absence. work interrupted play.
nice to see the thread so active!
Must say that I agree with several of the prev posts, that some people will blame anything (including their religion) for their evil ways. Its a human trait to try and find patterns, and some latch onto evil-doers religion as the cause.

Her is another Q on Islam (as is my understanding of the nature of this thread). What is the Islamic teachings on the forgiveness of sin? Who can forgive sin? Can a Muslim work to pay off his or her sin?

stevejazzx

the_new_mr wrote:

I take it you mean creation of Adam and Eve (peace be upon them) then? Or do you mean creation in general? I shall first talk about the former.

Well, there are two opinions on this. One that a large majority of Muslims hold (including myself) and another that very few (if any) hold and was proposed by an arabic language expert recently.

The first is that evolution in the Darwin sense is incorrect. Until now, it is called the theory of evolution and cannot be scientifically proven. Microevolution (the evolution of a species to improve itself over a number of generations) is perfectly fine in Islam. Like a particular human gene pool having longer narrower noses to cope with the cold and things like that.

The other theory is that evolution did occur and Adam and Eve (peace be upon them) were spirtually transferred to earth as opposed to physically transferred into the already evolved beings. This theory is weak on a few points and is why I'm with the first one.

Personally, I don't dwell on it. The origin of the human race as we know it has no bearing on what we should do day-to-day, week-to-week etc. It doesn't dictate whether I should be good or bad, moral or immoral etc.

As for creation in general (earth, universe etc), The Quran is in line with modern science about this.

For example, universe is currently expanding.

Az-Zariyat:47
"And it is We who have built the universe with [Our creative] power; and, verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it."

In Islam, we do believe that the earth was created in a matter of days but we also believe in the relativety of time and how the word "day" may not be one of our days we know it. Some verses showing this:

Al-Hajj:47
"And [so, O Muhammad,] they challenge thee to hasten the coming upon them of [God’s] chastisement: but God never fails to fulfill His promise - and, behold, in thy Sustainer’s sight a day is like a thousand years of your reckoning."

As-Sajda:5
"He governs all that exists, from the celestial space to the earth; and in the end all shall ascend unto Him [for judgment] on a Day the length whereof will be [like] a thousand years of your reckoning."

Al-Ma'arig:4
"all the angels and all the inspiration [ever granted to man] ascend unto Him [daily,] in a day the length whereof is [like] fifty thousand years"

Notice here how the words "of your reckoning" aren't present showing how there can be different "days" of different length and so a day with God could be much more than fifty thousand years.

Al-Mu'minun:112-114
"[And] He will ask [the doomed]: “What number of years have you spent on earth?”; They will answer: ‘We have spent there a day, or part of a day; but ask those who [are able to] count [time]…”; [Whereupon] He will say: “You have spent there but a short while: had you but known [how short it was to be]!"

You're very welcome.

I see

The explanation that 'days' can often be interpreted as longer periods confuses me. In the examples you give the contexts are dramatic where saying a day is like a thousand years of your reckoning can mean anything, it would seem to mean that a day would seem like a very long time as a mortal (human) cannot grasp the idea of a thousand years baecause I imagine the lifespan of a human back then was arounfd 40 -50 years if not less. In the examples of the texts you give, the phrasing sounds hyperbolic.
Why should a god or whoever is writing the text leave an open question as such? If he meant 7 days, then why not
'The world was created in 7 days by which I mean actual days of 24 hour cycle s each'
If he menat a thousand years or 50 thousand years or longer then why not:
'The world was created in xthousand amount as you human s record them'.
You see the latter form creates no unsolved riddle about having to decipher the exact meaning of words. When scrutinised interpretaion really only covers up the primitive flaws of these texts don't you think?

the_new_mr

RiderOnTheStorm wrote:

sorry for long absence.

Sorry for my own long absence.

RiderOnStorm wrote:

Her is another Q on Islam (as is my understanding of the nature of this thread). What is the Islamic teachings on the forgiveness of sin? Who can forgive sin? Can a Muslim work to pay off his or her sin?

This was discussed not so long ago here.

In a nutshell, forgiveness is there for those who seek it sincerely. As I understand it, there are two types of sins. Sins against God alone and sins against humans. A sin against God is between the sinner and God but a sin against a human involves the person sinned against as well. There's more in the thread anyway.

Also, one of the names that God calls himself with in the Quran is The Forgiving and another name is The Accepter of Repentance.

stevejazzx wrote:

When scrutinised interpretaion really only covers up the primitive flaws of these texts don't you think?

Well, obviously I don't think so

If you think about it more, according to general theories in physics of the "big bang", time is said not to exist as we know it at the moment when the big bang first happened. So, the description of time in hours or days of regular human "time" wouldn't be correct when you consider that, according to the theory of relativety, the difference in speed of events would not account for a simple measurement of time.

The actual measurement of time as we know it is only really a good standard for when things are stationary. Moving objects experience a different kind of time (according to Einstein) and so it's a very real possibility that "time" as we know it changed its relatively while the earth was being created. And God knows best.

Just for the record, God says in the Quran that the heavens and the earth were created in six days (not seven).

stevejazzx wrote:

In the examples you give the contexts are dramatic where saying a day is like a thousand years of your reckoning can mean anything, it would seem to mean that a day would seem like a very long time as a mortal (human) cannot grasp the idea of a thousand years baecause I imagine the lifespan of a human back then was arounfd 40 -50 years if not less. In the examples of the texts you give, the phrasing sounds hyperbolic.

Not really. Perhaps a better translation of one of the verses above would be:

As-Sajda:5
"He governs all that exists, from the celestial space to the earth; and in the end all shall ascend unto Him [for judgment] on a Day the length whereof will be [like] a thousand years of how you count."

The last few words are clear on the counting bit.

And of course only God knows the true meaning. We can only interpret as best as we can using our limited minds.

toiletduck

with all the stuff in the news recently, i was just wondering: does it actually say anything in the koran about women wearing veils, and if so what exactly?

the_new_mr

Hi toiketduck! You're very welcome here. Quality nick there! Made me laugh!! Quack quack!!

Here are some verses:

Al-Nour:30-31
"Tell the believing men to lower their gaze and be modest. That is purer for them. Lo! Allah is Aware of what they do.; And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment save to their own husbands or fathers or husbands' fathers, or their sons or their husbands' sons, or their brothers or their brothers' sons or sisters' sons, or their women, or their slaves, or male attendants who lack vigor, or children who know naught of women's nakedness. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And turn unto Allah together, O believers, in order that ye may succeed."

Veils here is actually referred to in the Quran in Arabic as "bikhumurihinna" (their khumurs) which is a veil in terms of a head scarf.

In some hadith (sayings) of the Prophet Mohamed (peace be upon him), the Prophet mentions that the hands and the face are all that should be apparent.

Some Islamic scholars say that it is preferable to wear the veil on the face (niqab) but make it optional to the woman. I understand that some even consider the face veil compulsory but I believe these are a minority.

Rev Hellfire

I'm curious new_mr, the passage you specified seems to be saying that both sexs should be modest and lower their gaze and cover their *ahem* bits and bobs which 'adorn' people.
Its doesn’t say anything about the face? Now I freely admit to been quite clueless about Islam, but the requirement for the Hijab was for the wives of the prophet, since they occupied a special position in society by virtue of been his wives?
Now is it appropriate for other women to wear such attire and equate themselves with these women (ie pride)? Or am I misreading and they were considered no more than any other woman?

the_new_mr

Rev Hellfire wrote:

I'm curious new_mr, the passage you specified seems to be saying that both sexs should be modest and lower their gaze and cover their *ahem* bits and bobs which 'adorn' people.

Yes, both sexes must dress modestly. Verse 30 (which goes as far as "...Allah is Aware of what they do...") is addressed to men and verse 31 is addressed to women.

Rev Hellfire wrote:

Its doesn’t say anything about the face?

Thought I stated this clearly enough. Guess I didn't. There's no mention of regular Muslim women covering their face in the Quran. The reference that women should cover all except their face and hands is from a hadith.

Rev Hellfire wrote:

Now I freely admit to been quite clueless about Islam, but the requirement for the Hijab was for the wives of the prophet, since they occupied a special position in society by virtue of been his wives?

As can be seen in verse 31, "believing women" are being addressed so hijab (head scarf and general covering the body properly) is a requirement. The wives of the Prophet had to wear the face veil or stand behind a screen when talking to men of the society (except their kin of course) because of their position as wives of the prophet and classified as "mothers of the believers".

If a woman wishes to wear the niqab (face veil) then that is her choice to wear it (as is of course the regular hijab) and there's no shame on her if she's doing it to be like the Prophet's wives but, according to a large majority of Muslim scholars, it's not compulsory. And God knows best.

RiderOnTheStorm

stevejazzx wrote:

If he menat a thousand years or 50 thousand years or longer then why not:
'The world was created in xthousand amount as you human s record them'.
You see the latter form creates no unsolved riddle about having to decipher the exact meaning of words. When scrutinised interpretaion really only covers up the primitive flaws of these texts don't you think?

Well there are many books about (Bible, Quran, Talmud, etc) that say very clearly He created the universe and everything in it in 6 days...the planet was created in 1 day, by the way. Where is the ambiguity about that? The riddle comes from people not believing it, then saying its not believable, there must be some other meaning.

Interestingly, we all know there are stars in the sky that are over a million light years away (for examle) but we can see their light, so the universe must be at least as old as that, so that the light had enough time to travel to use here. So God did not create the univese 8000 years ago (a fairly common figure among non-bib-bang believers) cause there would not be enough time for the stars he made that are at the edge of teh univese to cast there light here .... but yet again, the answer is in His word (if you care to believe it). The book says He made the light first! 'let there be light' comes before He made the sky and planet. So I believe he made the light 'in transit'.

Imagine for a min that creation by God is all true ..... and 5 mins after he is finished you ask yourself 'how old is the world?' .... would it look 5 mins old? surely not, there is a tree over there, it must be 50 years old... and there is a rive & lake and mountain, it must have taken thousands of years for the river to carve that ... millions for the mountain to raise up! He made it look old as soon as He made it. It could not be made and look like it was 5 mins old 5 mins later. Even if it were a mud ball.... where did the mud come from? a hundred years of decay of material & sand & water?

Sorry for long post (and my first in awhile!) and doubly sorry for anti-evoluition post in this topic as it is not on-topic, but I think evolution is very anti-God and distracts people from the huge great things He has done for them, and them alone.

RiderOnTheStorm

the_new_mr wrote:

...And God knows best.

never a truer word was spoken :-)

stevejazzx

RiderOnTheStorm wrote:

Well there are many books about (Bible, Quran, Talmud, etc) that say very clearly He created the universe and everything in it in 6 days...the planet was created in 1 day, by the way. Where is the ambiguity about that?

Here:

the_new_mr wrote:

In Islam, we do believe that the earth was created in a matter of days but we also believe in the relativety of time and how the word "day" may not be one of our days we know it.

This was the point I was arguing, so essentially you are disagreeing with the user
the_new_mr and not me.

---

rider on the storm wrote:

Interestingly, we all know there are stars in the sky that are over a million light years away (for examle) but we can see their light, so the universe must be at least as old as that, so that the light had enough time to travel to use here. So God did not create the univese 8000 years ago (a fairly common figure among non-bib-bang believers) cause there would not be enough time for the stars he made that are at the edge of teh univese to cast there light here .... but yet again, the answer is in His word (if you care to believe it). The book says He made the light first! 'let there be light' comes before He made the sky and planet. So I believe he made the light 'in transit'.

Is it a possibility that the people who recorded these texts just simply did not understand the science of light?

rider on the storm wrote:

Sorry for long post (and my first in awhile!) and doubly sorry for anti-evoluition post in this topic as it is not on-topic, but I think evolution is very anti-God and distracts people from the huge great things He has done for them, and them alone.

Evoluton is anti God?
Only if ends up disproving his existance, otherwise I cna't see what harm it could possibly do him.

RiderOnTheStorm

stevejazzx wrote:

Evoluton is anti God?
Only if ends up disproving his existance, otherwise I cna't see what harm it could possibly do him.

He says 'I did A, B, and C' and evolution says 'oh no you didnt' ...
The first sin mentioned in the old testament is not Eve (peace be upon her) taking the apple and eating it, but the serpent contradicting the word of God (Gen 3:4)

I dont want to stray too far off topic with this, as I just mentioned it before to find the Muslim beliefs on creation & evolution. I believed in God and evolution myself (equally) for many years, but recently have dropped the evolution part. But, like the book says, a man cannot serve 2 masters. In my mind, evolution limits the power and greatness of God. It is a far more spectacular universe to think that someone made it like that, rather than a series of random events.

Point taken about the time element, by the way. It was the_new_mr that made that...my mistake :-)

RiderOnTheStorm

another question (if you are not getting tired of them by now) ... and im afraid this will display my depth of ignorance....
Thre are Shiite Muslims and Sunni Muslims, so what is meant by 'Muslim' and what is meant by 'Islam'?
Is one a religion and the other the faith? (like 'Catholic' and 'Christianity'?)

babyvaio

RiderOnTheStorm wrote:

another question (if you are not getting tired of them by now) ... and im afraid this will display my depth of ignorance....
Thre are Shiite Muslims and Sunni Muslims, so what is meant by 'Muslim' and what is meant by 'Islam'?
Is one a religion and the other the faith? (like 'Catholic' and 'Christianity'?)

A Muslim is a human/jinn who believes in One True God and one who does not associate partners to Him, nor sons, nor daughters, nor anything. Muslim also believes that Muhammed (saws) is Allah's final messenger.

Islam is a complete system of life, the only system God Almighty is pleased with and it's way above religion, but to answer your question - yes, you could say, Islam is a religion.

the_new_mr

RiderOnTheStorm wrote:

another question (if you are not getting tired of them by now) ... and im afraid this will display my depth of ignorance....

Ask away man!

RiderOnTheStorm wrote:

what is meant by 'Muslim' and what is meant by 'Islam'? Is one a religion and the other the faith? (like 'Catholic' and 'Christianity'?)

To ellaborate on babyvaio's answer a little...

Islam comes from the root Arabic word S-L-M which is used as the root word for submission, purity and peace. Islam mainly means submission to God. From the way Arabic grammar is contructed, a Muslim is someone who is following Islam. So, it's more like the relationship between Christianity and Christian rather than Catholic and Christianty. A Muslim is to a Chrisitan as Islam is to Christianity (even though of course they have the same source).