Seanad

air_vent

Can graduates vote in the senad like NUI's ???

Sisu

Yes, though you have to register. There are three Trinity Senators (David Norris, Shane Ross and Mary Henry).

Andrew 83

Yeah I have registration papers, I think you have to be registered by December to be on the register for the following year.

air_vent

ou have to be already graduated then apply or can you get the papers now in preperation for the next year when I will be graduated??

aodh_rua

Andrew 83 wrote:

Yeah I have registration papers, I think you have to be registered by December to be on the register for the following year.

Registration was a major issue in the last Senate election. To be on the new register you need to submit forms by December of the preceding year. You get these forms along with all of the commencements stuff. College publishes a draft of this register in the spring and the official register is available in June. In the last election cycle, the general election was called in May and the Seanad election was held in July. The NUI chose to use the new register that had been draft published in the spring and became active after the election was called but before the vote was held. The University of Dublin (Trinners) chose to use the previous year's register thus disenfranchising around 3000 odd graduates. Their interpretation was to use the register in force when the election was called, NUI's was to use the register in force on the day. The NUI approach is consistent with how a Dáil constituency would operate. The same law was therefore applied differently for the same election process in violation of article 40.1 of the constitution.

Essentially this would be the same as if two twins submitted registration forms to two different constituencies on the same day and when the election came round one got to vote and the other didn't. Given that the quota is around 4000 votes, the number disenfranchised could have had a significant effect.

Incidentally if you hold both an NUI and a DU degree you get to vote in both.

geraghd

aodh_rua wrote:

Registration was a major issue in the last Senate election. To be on the new register you need to submit forms by December of the preceding year. You get these forms along with all of the commencements stuff. College publishes a draft of this register in the spring and the official register is available in June. In the last election cycle, the general election was called in May and the Seanad election was held in July. The NUI chose to use the new register that had been draft published in the spring and became active after the election was called but before the vote was held. The University of Dublin (Trinners) chose to use the previous year's register thus disenfranchising around 3000 odd graduates. Their interpretation was to use the register in force when the election was called, NUI's was to use the register in force on the day. The NUI approach is consistent with how a Dáil constituency would operate. The same law was therefore applied differently for the same election process in violation of article 40.1 of the constitution.

Essentially this would be the same as if two twins submitted registration forms to two different constituencies on the same day and when the election came round one got to vote and the other didn't. Given that the quota is around 4000 votes, the number disenfranchised could have had a significant effect.

Incidentally if you hold both an NUI and a DU degree you get to vote in both.

Really? Is that for graduates with a degree or any sort of postgraduate course? ie a higher diploma? and hello aodh-rua!

Time Magazine

Fáilte romhat, a geraghd .

How's Galway treating ya? We're missing the South Kildare contingent round these parts since your departure. Your sister, be her a great speaker (did you hear about our victorious antics??), she's no geraghd!

geraghd

Angry Banana wrote:

Fáilte romhat, a geraghd .

How's Galway treating ya? We're missing the South Kildare contingent round these parts since your departure. Your sister, be her a great speaker (did you hear about our victorious antics??), she's no geraghd!

I get enough of that irish malarky here in NUIG!!
Galways good though, trying to get used to the accent, but missing Dublin and fair ol TCD!
what were these victorious antics???

geraghd

This wouldnt be the fact that TYFG are now the largest politcal party on campus?!!?

Time Magazine

Well yes, that too. But I was referring to our Gerry O'Connell-ass-whooping debating-in-the-Mansion-House skills.

aodh_rua

Get John Lahart out there - he gave a barn-stormer last night at the Kildare North convention.

Hi geraghd! Graduates with any kind of degree except honourary ones are entitled to vote in their university constituency. Obviously if your undergrad and postgrad are from the same university you only get one vote, but if one is DU and one is NUI you get a vote in each.

geraghd

But mines a higher diploma not a degree.. .so does that count?
and was she speaking at the debate angry banana?

ISAW

aodh_rua wrote:

Registration was a major issue in the last Senate election. [snip]

I seem to remember something about that?

Essentially this would be the same as if two twins submitted registration forms to two different constituencies on the same day and when the election came round one got to vote and the other didn't.

Apt metaphor.

Incidentally if you hold both an NUI and a DU degree you get to vote in both.

One has to be an Irish citizen however. Also you may not be surprised to learn that an SI could be employed. We must talk about this elsewhere.

ISAW

geraghd wrote:

But mines a higher diploma not a degree.. .so does that count?

Nope. Don't think so. But undergraduate scholars who are Irish and over eighteen can apply.
Addendum: Or is that over 21?


Seanad election University members Act 1937
Section 7
(2) Every person who is a citizen of Ireland and has received a degree (other than an honorary degree) in the University of Dublin or has obtained a foundation scholarship ill that University or, if a woman, has obtained a non-foundation scholarship in the said University and (in any case) has attained the age of twenty-one years shall be entitled to be registered as an elector in the register of electors for the Dublin University constituency.

ApeXaviour

ISAW wrote:

Seanad election University members Act 1937
Section 7
(2) Every person who is a citizen of Ireland and has received a degree (other than an honorary degree) in the University of Dublin or has obtained a foundation scholarship ill that University or, if a woman, has obtained a non-foundation scholarship in the said University and (in any case) has attained the age of twenty-one years shall be entitled to be registered as an elector in the register of electors for the Dublin University constituency.

Let me see if I got this:
A man needs to be a foundation scholar (of which there are only 70 at any one time) in order to vote in the seanad before they recieve their degree. However a woman just needs any old (foundation or non) scholarship to vote.

Is this because their woman problems put them at a disadvantage for the schol exams and thus we need to set a handicap for them?

Surely the statutes couldn't be that dated?

One has to be an Irish citizen however. Also you may not be surprised to learn that an SI could be employed.

What's an SI?

geraghd

Statutoruy Instrument?

aodh_rua

geraghd wrote:

Statutoruy Instrument?

Yup. ISAW as ever your knowledge on this one is impressive!

Thirdfox

ApeXaviour wrote:

Let me see if I got this:
A man needs to be a foundation scholar (of which there are only 70 at any one time) in order to vote in the seanad before they recieve their degree. However a woman just needs any old (foundation or non) scholarship to vote.

Is this because their woman problems put them at a disadvantage for the schol exams and thus we need to set a handicap for them?

Surely the statutes couldn't be that dated?

What's an SI?

It's probably the other way round nowadays (what with girls doing better in examinations than boys...)

Ever wonder why medicine in Trinity is 90% female? (Or law which is 80% female)...

So it's really the boys who need a handicap.

ISAW

aodh_rua wrote:

Yup. ISAW as ever your knowledge on this one is impressive!

Thank you. In any case I wasn't finished. While it does seem late (in the last century) for the sexual inequality the law nowadays applies equally to women as it does men.

I dont think Seanad elections are elitist nowadays given the amount of graduates. Maybe the constituencies could be broadned.
I am not totally against elitism in any case. If Man U or Arsenal want the best players for their team then good look to them.

If you want to find comments on changing the Seanad (including mine) then look here:
http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/Committees29thDail/cpp-seanad.htm#Written

You will note that the Provost made a verbal submission and asked others to submit a written one a year after I urged him to do so and he deemed it not a matter for College.

lego

Due to a irregularity in the legal system DCU and UL graduates are excluded from voting in seanad elections despite being recognised as universities by the Universities Act, 1997

http://acts2.oireachtas.ie/zza24y1997.1.html
http://acts2.oireachtas.ie/zza15y1989.1.html
http://acts2.oireachtas.ie/zza14y1989.1.html

The entire system is scheduled to be changed in 2009. DCU and UL will be included by default, the debate is whether the ITs should be included.

http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/committees29thdail/subcomonseanadreform/scsf180903.rtf

Wacko_Jacko

lego wrote:

Due to a irregularity in the legal system DCU and UL graduates are excluded from voting in seanad elections despite being recognised as universities by the Universities Act, 1997

http://acts2.oireachtas.ie/zza24y1997.1.html
http://acts2.oireachtas.ie/zza15y1989.1.html
http://acts2.oireachtas.ie/zza14y1989.1.html

The entire system is scheduled to be changed in 2009. DCU and UL will be included by default, the debate is whether the ITs should be included.

http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/committees29thdail/subcomonseanadreform/scsf180903.rtf

The solution is as folllows: seven members of the IUA (http://www.iua.ie), seven seats in the Senate for university representation. A complete homogenisation of identities if you ask me.

Can one of the moderators please change 'Senad' to Seanad? This is an important and serious discussion as Trinity will effectively have its representation reduced by 200%.

Oirthir

Wacko_Jacko wrote:

The solution is as folllows: seven members of the IUA (http://www.iua.ie), seven seats in the Senate for university representation. A complete homogenisation of identities if you ask me.

Can one of the moderators please change 'Senad' to Seanad? This is an important and serious discussion as Trinity will effectively have its representation reduced by 200%.

And how exactly will this help the issue of IT Graduates getting to vote?

An Honours Degree from an IT sits on the same level in the National Framework as a Degree from TCD or UCD or UL etc, so why should IT graduates be excluded simply because of the Institution they attend?

ISAW

Wacko_Jacko wrote:

The solution is as folllows: seven members of the IUA (http://www.iua.ie), seven seats in the Senate for university representation. A complete homogenisation of identities if you ask me.

Can one of the moderators please change 'Senad' to Seanad? This is an important and serious discussion as Trinity will effectively have its representation reduced by 200%.

I think you may mean "reduced by 66.66.. per cent" Reduction by 100 percent would be tantamount to abolition. A 200% reduction is analogous to the Senate sending people to sit in Trinity! Which reminds me of the last Private Act Trinity Put through the Seanad

ISAW

lego wrote:

Due to a irregularity in the legal system DCU and UL graduates are excluded from voting in seanad elections despite being recognised as universities by the Universities Act, 1997

http://acts2.oireachtas.ie/zza24y1997.1.html
http://acts2.oireachtas.ie/zza15y1989.1.html
http://acts2.oireachtas.ie/zza14y1989.1.html

The entire system is scheduled to be changed in 2009. DCU and UL will be included by default, the debate is whether the ITs should be included.

The debate is far wider than that but more on that below.

You didnt note that Trinity made very strong objections to the 1997 act which resulted in:

1 A constitutional "crisis" in Trinity with respect to the defintion of the University of Dublin/Trinity College
2. Problems with respect to the roles and responsibilities and powers of various offices and persons including:
The Scholars and Fellows
The registrar (as a legal officer and as a returning officer in elections or plebicites)

This eventually necessitated Oireachtas intervention :
Seanad: 06 November, 1998

That it is expedient that a Joint Committee of both Houses be appointed to consider The Trinity College, Dublin and The University of Dublin (Charters and Letters Patent Amendment) Bill, 1997, being a Bill entitled an Act to amend the Charters and Letters Patent under which Trinity College, Dublin and the University of Dublin are incorporated.


Dáil Éireann - 16 December, 1998
Private Business. - Trinity College Dublin and The University of Dublin (Charters and Letters Patent Amendment) Bill, 1997: Motion.

That a select committee be appointed to be joined with a select committee to be appointed by Seanad Éireann to consider the Trinity College Dublin and The University of Dublin (Charters and Letters Patent Amendment) Bill, 1997.

You can go and read the discussions of that committee and their meetings with various college officers. there is also a visitors report into the issue.

as regards reform. I have already posted the reports on that.

Seanad Electoral (Higher Education) Bill, 1998 [Seanad] a private members bill did not get past first stage.

If you can actually state what the whips will be putting before the houses in 2009 then I suggest you go into futures markets.

http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/committees29thdail/subcomonseanadreform/scsf180903.rtf

Thi si 90 odd pages and contins nothing on promised legislative reform AFAIK.

lego

This is from the DCU alumni magazine website:

http://www.dcu.ie/alumni/spring05/p5.html

ISAW

ISAW wrote:

The debate is far wider than that but more on that below.

You didnt note that Trinity made very strong objections to the 1997 act which resulted in:

Sorry left this out:
http://www.gov.ie/bills28/bills/1997/0197P/

This has most of the debate in it. the visitors report isnt there but the salient points are quoted.

Various officers Provost, Vice Provost, Registrar, Secretary gave evidence in it under oath. It also goes into the whole Latin translation issue, the difference between the College and University etc.

Of particular note is the e mail which I think the Trinity News of the day reproduced. I will leave the reproduction of that as an exercise for the student.

geraghd

lego wrote:

This is from the DCU alumni magazine website:

http://www.dcu.ie/alumni/spring05/p5.html

yes, you're absolutely right, it is from the DCU alumni magazine website!

air_vent

Quite the thread ive started here.

Although I am still none the wiser as to the initial point!

lego

Yes Graduates from TCD can vote in Seanad elections.

Currently, the University of Dublin (Trinity College being the only college of said university) has 3 seanad seats.

The National University of Ireland has the other 3 seanad university seats, so graduates from any of the NUI colleges can also vote for senators.

air_vent

lego wrote:

Yes Graduates from TCD can vote in Seanad elections.

Currently, the University of Dublin (Trinity College being the only college of said university) has 3 seanad seats.

The National University of Ireland has the other 3 seanad university seats, so graduates from any of the NUI colleges can also vote for senators.

Thank you

BluesWeeper

Anyone know if the rules for the Seanad voting Register have changed to allow the inclusion of holders with Diplomas from NUI universities ?