Beauts and Teds

gimmick

The Following appeared in issue 11 of Cork City fanzine FourFiveOne back in august 2002. Id be interested to hear peoples opinions on it

I am a scouser living in Cork for the past eight years. In that time I have been a regular attendee at the Cross, and as a hardened football follower I have some observations that I would like to share. Before I do I think that I need to establish some credentials as a football fan, just so that you take notice. I went to my first game at the age of six or seven. My mate at the time, who lived over the road in Liverpool, had just started being taken to the match by his dad, so I asked if I could go along. His dad agreed. To make it special we were taken into the Kop, my mate normally watched from the Boys Pen. The game was versus Man United, European champions, with the front line of Best, Law and Charlton. Liverpool lost 3-0, and before the first half had really started we were put into the boys pen, the crush on the kop was knocking all the breath out of the two of us. Before being lifted into the pen, with Liverpool one down, the guy who was getting me out lifted me above the swaying mass and pointed to the Anfield Road end. “See them” he said, nodding towards the Mancs “You hate them don’t you”. And do you know, I do.

From that point I was taken to a few games, I saw Greaves play for Spurs and Dougan for Wolves. At the age of about ten or eleven it became normal to go to the game by myself. I watched Keegans first game against Forest and Roger Hunts last. Once I was earning it wasn’t long before I had a Kop season ticket. I have been to some momentous occasions with Liverpool, All Merseyside cup finals, annual trips to Wembley, I was at Heysel, to my shame, albeit outside while the trouble was on.

I have travelled a lot in my work, and have always tried to support the team from were I was located, e.g. Cork City, the list of clubs I have been a regular at include Reading, Blackpool, Hearts, Aberdeen and most memorably Feyenoord. In Rotterdam I attended Feyenoord-Ajax games which was a huge experience. And I travelled to either Dusseldorf or Dortmund for a European game, where the Feyenoord fans thought is was very funny when they goosestepped from the train station to the ground when under police escort.

Nowadys, as a result of a bitter mixed marriage my son is growing up supporting Everton. As a result I am now a season ticket holder on the Gwladys Street. I must be one of only a handful of people to have been a season ticket holder on both the Kop and Gwladys Street. I go home every other weekend during the season to go to the match with my lad. I still get to Liverpool matches, not many home league games, but I went to the League and Uefa Cup finals and the Community Shield. Even so, I attend every City game that I can. Someone once asked me whether I work in order to attend as many football matches as possible, and I think that may be true.
Anyhow, to cut to the point. Do City supports, as I do, get irritated by pub followers of British football teams. Guys who sneer when you mention that you go to the Cross to watch City? Are you annoyed when some langer in a Man U shirt tells you that you are not watching real football when you attend an actual match in person? Is an obsession with Celtic valid for a resident of Cork, unless they also watch a local team? Now that Friday football has returned to Turners Cross and the City team look to have a young side capable of doing things shouldn’t there be a concerted effort by those attending games be waged against those mock ‘football’ fans that only watch football in the pub.

If you agree then what should be done is the following:- STOP ANY argument about football, whether Mick versus Roy, Liverpool versus Man United, Are Rangers a bigoted club?, Which is the true ‘Irish’ club in London?, is Bristol City a football team etc. etc. in ANY pub in Cork unless those participating can validate there football credentials by attesting to attending City games (or Cobh, Rockmount etc.). Inform those beginning the discussion that just watching football on the telly does not make one a football fan. Divert to conversation to make the point that to continue to give money to the big clubs in the UK, whether through Satellite subscription, buying replica shirts etc WITHOUT making ANY contribution to the local football community automatically puts them outside the realm of football fandome. Use you wit and imagination to introduce such points and make sure that these people are told. When the football argument starts in the local pub it is the duty of all attending local football to ask the opener – “How many matches did you attend in the Cork area in the last year”, anyone who answers ‘None’ should be reminded on the salient facts about following football, that is, if you don’t watch in the flesh you are not a fan. People who have sex without getting involved with someone else are ****, do you follow the trend of the argument.

As a Scouser I tend to stick out in Cork, as soon as I open my gob it is obvious were I am from. This happens to make me a magnet for the kind of ‘footballer MEANDERER’ I am referring to. (Note, not a football FAN, not a football FOLLOWER, but a MEANDERER). When I am in a boozer, some dipstick will recognise the accent and try and start up a football related conversation. Actual what happens usually is that they start to rant on about Liverpool, and calls the team ‘We’ and asks me ‘How do you think WE will do next season” my reaction is instinctive, “Do you support Cork City, you Beaut?”, followed by, “Have you ever been to Anfield, Ted?”, I sometimes utter “Blurt” which is about the worst Scouse insult you can deliver, but I am usually drunk when that happens. The term Beaut or Ted are Scouse football insults, I will try to translate. Roughly. ‘Beaut’, “He looks a Beaut in his replica Man United shirt, bet he can’t find Old Trafford on a map”. Ted is a bit more difficult, it is to do with the blokes who continued to dress in authentic Teddy Boy gear until well into their sixties, looking more ridiculous with every passing year, do you get the drift? ‘Blurt’ is beyond the limit, a sort of ‘Langer’ multiplied by ten.

Now don’t get me wrong, there are football fans who I have no bother with, older guys who by financial necessity had to live in England and spent a few years devoted to the local, or not so local, team, attending matches regularly. Those lads can join the football discussions; they have made their contribution to the cause. However they should be gently encouraged to attend the odd match at Turners Cross. Similarly there are lads who try and get to Old Trafford or Villa Park or wherever five or six times a season, good luck to them, these chaps should be reminded that attendance at the same number of City games as Villa or Man United keeps them in the fold.

The most sickening thing though has to be the Sky sponsored pub football supporter. They go to the pub on a Sunday or Monday and if they buy a pint each half, their next purchase, even a packet of Tayto, takes their spend above the admission price at Turners Cross. The same amount of money spent, the same amount of time, the same number of guys on the pitch. And the part about lads who put their replica shirts to go to the pub to watch football has me shaking my head.

The number one reminder to all these guys is, when attending City (or Cobh or Rockmount et al) is that YOU are increasing the likelihood that Cork can take pride in another Roy Kane or Colin Healy. THEY, the Beauts and Teds are actually driving that possibility DOWN by their every action. Remind these guys during every football discussion in every pub. That means that YOUR opinion on the football matter of the day counts for more than theirs, gently remind them of this, ask them to argue the opposite point, they will eventually argue themselves around to the view that you are right. Then the attendance at Turners Cross will increase three-fold, City will win the league five times in a row because of all the accumulated wealth. The price of a season ticket will rocket. You can then bore everyone to death about how much better it was in the old days when 1500 came to home games.

Töpher

Too tired to go into detail on his thoughts, but he sounds like a top lad and I'd like to subscribe to his newsletter!

Jonny Arson

Great article!

MrJoeSoap

Very good altogether. Hopefully some (unnamed) people on here will give it a read. Not that I reckon it will make an ounce of difference to them.

Jonny Arson

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Very good altogether. Hopefully some (unnamed) people on here will give it a read. Not that I reckon it will make an ounce of difference to them.

You really mean 99% of the Irish Football ''fans'' population don't you!

MrJoeSoap

Zane from MTV2 wrote:

You really mean 99% of the Irish Football ''fans'' population don't you!

Malheuresement.

shelsfan

People who have sex without getting involved with someone else are ****, do you follow the trend of the argument.

I might use that one!

therecklessone

Thats a fantastic article, cheers for posting gimmick.

Benedict XVI

I thought it was pathetic.
Typical of the attitude you get from Eircom league fans i.e. you are not a propper fan if you don't go to EL games.
I have never been to an EL game and have no plans on going anytime soon and so what, I can still have an intelegent football conversation with anyone.
I'd say this guy pi**es off people everwhere he has been with that attitude.

gimmick

Looks like you missed the point of the article completely, and the fact you thought it was pathetic obviously menat it struck a raw nerve.

Its not a typical eL fan attitude, as this guy isnt an eL fan, he quite clearly states that.

I have never been to an EL game and have no plans on going anytime soon and so what, I can still have an intelegent football conversation with anyone.

You have missed the point. Have you ever been to a football match in your own City?

you are not a propper fan if you don't go to EL games.

I didnt see anyone else saying that. You are the first to say so. Perhaps what eL fans say is that your arguments would hold alot morew eight if you had a more rounded view of football ie not just whatever camera angle Sky offer you.

Töpher

Benedict XVI wrote:

I thought it was pathetic.
Typical of the attitude you get from Eircom league fans i.e. you are not a propper fan if you don't go to EL games.
I have never been to an EL game and have no plans on going anytime soon and so what, I can still have an intelegent football conversation with anyone.
I'd say this guy pi**es off people everwhere he has been with that attitude.

I think the attitude is more "you're not a proper fan if you don't at least try one or two games without a grudge on your shoulder and see do you enjoy the event". If you decide after that that its not for you, then fine I guess, but its like someone saying they don't like Russian U-12's beach volleyball, without ever seeing it. Your argument has no basis and you were clearly offended by a gentle article.

One thing to remember, without our league there would be no Irish international team - as in FIFA rules you must have a national league to be eligiable to participate as a nation. You can't take it all for granted, the league is a tough financial state, and if it goes under, so does Team Nation Of The Republic Of Ireland Feat. Some English Lads With Irish Grandparents. Something to think about perhaps? Can you really continue to just have your cake and eat it?

One proposal being pushed by fans North and South of the border is for an All-Ireland league, need I spell out what this means for Team ireland and team Northern Ireland? ... Whether you agree with this or not, get through the gates and help our national league to prosper on its own if you're dead against it, or come down and support your team and enjoy the spectacle on show.

The best thing anyone can do is get their arses on seats in their local EL grounds, and we could soon be watching even more international players on a weekly basis, in the flesh rather than next to the local drunk slurring on about Liverpools CL win being the greatest night of his pathetic life.

Benedict XVI

gimmick wrote:

Its not a typical eL fan attitude, as this guy isnt an eL fan, he quite clearly states that.

Ok, I'll re-phrase that, the writer has an attitude that 'If you don't go to local football then you have no right to be part of any football conversation

If you agree then what should be done is the following:- STOP ANY argument about football, whether Mick versus Roy, Liverpool versus Man United, Are Rangers a bigoted club?, Which is the true ‘Irish’ club in London?, is Bristol City a football team etc. etc. in ANY pub in Cork unless those participating can validate there football credentials by attesting to attending City games (or Cobh, Rockmount etc.)

gimmick wrote:

You have missed the point. Have you ever been to a football match in your own City?

Nearest EL team is 50 miles away (and that is Div 1) and to be honest I am not that interested in junior football locally.

gimmick wrote:

I didnt see anyone else saying that. You are the first to say so. Perhaps what eL fans say is that your arguments would hold alot morew eight if you had a more rounded view of football ie not just whatever camera angle Sky offer you.

I could source many threads on the board mentioning the 'holier than thou' attitudes of EL fans (search is disabled however)
As for my rounded view of football, I watch Sky, and the BBC, and RTE and TV3, I read teh papers and the internet, I think my view is rounded enough thank you very much.

gimmick

But this 'holier than thou' attitude is a myth made up by people as a way of distracting from an argument. Agreed, there are some guys out there with an attitude problem, you may even think I have one. But Im sure you will find that is the case with fans of every club in every league in the world.

Personally, I would welcome all new fans through the gates of Turners Cross, as long as they are there to support the team, not snipe at it.

Just one point I would like to raise

I have never been to an EL game and have no plans on going anytime soon and so what

As a matter of interest, do you travel to watch a team in the uk on a semi regular basis? I just ask because

Nearest EL team is 50 miles away (and that is Div 1)

Now, I am not trying to ram anything down your throat here, but if geographical location is the problem, you would support anyone, would you?

Benedict XVI

Einst&#252 wrote: »

The best thing anyone can do is get their arses on seats in their local EL grounds, and we could soon be watching even more international players on a weekly basis, in the flesh rather than next to the local drunk slurring on about Liverpools CL win being the greatest night of his pathetic life.

Well with attitudes like the ones below why would people bother

I apologise to the people quoted below for brining their posts into a debate they are not currently a part of, i am just using them to illustrate my point
From http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=3394334&postcount=22

kdjac wrote:

Personally i would be embarassed if these fans started going to Pats games, im glad all the new fans are Shels fans. They are clueless people who as Pigman points out only there for the occasion.

From http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=3393571&postcount=19

MrJoeSoap wrote:

DubGuy wrote:

Remember Lansdowne road? How many showed up to support Shels? 26,000 or something…that shows people want to have something to support...but the EL just dosen’t offer them that.

No, what that shows is that people are glory hunting and only willing to hop on bandwagons when Irish clubs are succesful.

gracehopper

I thought it was a good article, it pointed out some interesting stuff about football support in the country. I also acknowledge that by attending EL games we can increase the chances of breathing more homegrown talent like Roy Keane. I myself attend the occasional Shels match, i also used to play for them when i was younger but i wouldnt consider myself a Shels fan. In Ireland many lads support liverpool r united r whoever because their old man suppported either one r the other and i have to be honest I have followed United since i was young enough to talk so my mind was sort of made up really. although lately i wish i could change my mind (only joking!!!). Although i agree with 95% of the article i dont think that your opinion counts for more if you support a local team. Fair play for the article! cheers

Serbian

I have to say that personally I didn't really agree with the central point of the article. No matter what country you live in, you don't have to support the local team to have a valid opinion on football (or supporting the local team doesn't make your opinion more valid). Fair play to him for supporting the local teams whereever he went though, he obviously believes in his philosophy.

MrJoeSoap

Benedict XVI wrote:

As for my rounded view of football, I watch Sky, and the BBC, and RTE and TV3, I read teh papers and the internet, I think my view is rounded enough thank you very much.

Fair play to ye mate. :rolleyes:

Also, may I ask where you live?

midget lord

Trying to support you local football team seems to be 'in' thing at the moment.

For me, its the english team i support even over the irish national side.

MrJoeSoap

midget lord wrote:

Trying to support you local football team seems to be 'in' thing at the moment.

Yeah, its just a phase, we'll all get over it and crawl back to English football by Christmas. :rolleyes:

Sorry for all the sarcasm this morning lads. I'm not feeling very witty.

Benedict XVI

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Also, may I ask where you live?

Mayo

gimmick wrote:

As a matter of interest, do you travel to watch a team in the uk on a semi regular basis?

No, but if I am in the UK or European and a local top teir or Div 1 team is playing I check the ticket availability

MrJoeSoap

Benedict XVI wrote:

Mayo

Okay, the reason I asked was because if it was the South-East, Fade2Black is giving away free tickets to Waterford-Bohs.

Benedict XVI wrote:

No, but if I am in the UK or European and a local top teir or Div 1 team is playing I check the ticket availability

Do you see if there are Dublin teams playing when you are in Dublin? Or other places around Ireland that have clubs?

midget lord

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Yeah, its just a phase, we'll all get over it and crawl back to English football by Christmas. :rolleyes:

Once the Eircom league is over id be surprised if the majority didnt.


This is an annual question, why do people not support their home countries league and prefer to watch foreign teams battle it out on foreign channels. It gets very tiring after so many years.

MrJoeSoap

midget lord wrote:

Once the Eircom league is over id be surprised if the majority didnt.

You have got to be having a laugh.

midget lord wrote:

This is an annual question, why do people not support their home countries league and prefer to watch foreign teams battle it out on foreign channels. It gets very tiring after so many years.

Hmmm... Perhaps because people are engaged by sitting on a couch or a barstool, supporting a club hundreds of miles away ahead of their local side. It's sad but true.

Also, if the debate is tiring, perhaps you might want to take a nap or just not take part in it. Nobody is forcing you to post here.

gimmick

midget lord wrote:

Once the Eircom league is over id be surprised if the majority didnt.

I doubt that is necessarilly true. I know I watch football from England, Spain and Italy when its on. Also, once the eL season is over I make a point of trying to travel abroad to try and see some new teams/grounds. Next on my hitlist is either bayern or Barca.

That said, I am heading to see the biggest London derby of them all in January - thats right Leyton orient Vs Barnet at Brisbane Road!

But by doing the above, doesnt mean Im 'going back' to Englsih football, merely keeping myself occupied.

This is an annual question, why do people not support their home countries league and prefer to watch foreign teams battle it out on foreign channels. It gets very tiring after so many years.

Out of interest, whats your reasoning?

midget lord

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Also, if the debate is tiring, perhaps you might want to take a nap or just not take part in it. Nobody is forcing you to post here.

Firstly, perhaps you should try to stop being condscending.

Secondly, this same thing is said, not just on here which is what i was saying in my previous post, but by most Eircom league supporters. The reason i watch english football is because the quality of the football is better. The premiership, La Liga, Serie A etc are all of a much higher quality than the eircom league. If say, i liked watching the old third or fourth division football, then maybe this argument could have weight. I travel to watch liverpool at least 5 times a season, usually two at away grounds. Yet, i live in whitehall and dont travel down to tolka at all. This is because i support Liverpool. I dont support the eircom league.

Im going on lunch now, i will continue my rant after that. incidentally, i may have english cheese on my sambo's. Is that because i dont like to support the irish economy or have a problem with irish farmers or dairy producers? no its because i may perfer this cheese.

Draupnir

A bloke down that lives on my road has a black belt in Karate. I went round to his house one day and watched him break a few bits of wood and stuff. He was alright at it I must say, but he wasnt particularly impressive and I fancied I could probably do as good a job myself if I set my mind to it.

On the other hand, I watched a Bruce Lee movie the other night and that chap is magic. His karate skills and some of his moves astounded me, he was far better than my mate is at karate. A real pro.

I'll stick to Bruce Lee for my Karate entertainment.

*Any convoluted metaphors found in this post are coincidental*.

The Muppet

This is an annual question, why do people not support their home countries league and prefer to watch foreign teams battle it out on foreign channels. i

Everyone entitled to make thier own choice, there is no need to try make those that dont make the same choice as youself out to be wrong.

One of my reasons for not supporting the EL lies with mis management of the FAI and having read the Genesis report and the white paper I' am happy with my reasoning.

Even though I live in Dublin I don't have what I would call a local team playing in the EL . I do attend local league matches.

It's up to the league to provide an attarctive product at the right price, when they do that there will be no need to try put people on a guilt trip for not supporting.

Football is a business and like all business if it's mis managed it will flop.

MrJoeSoap

midget lord wrote:

Firstly, perhaps you should try to stop being condscending.

I'll try, but I find this slightly insulting myself:

midget lord wrote:

Trying to support you local football team seems to be 'in' thing at the moment.

Enjoy your English cheese.

Hope it doesn't cost 20 times the price of Irish cheese, or maybe you just like to watch the cheese on the television.

[Slaps self on hand] Stop it!!

Draupnir

MrJoeSoap wrote:

I'll try, but I find this slightly insulting myself:



Enjoy your English cheese.

Hope it doesn't cost 20 times the price of Irish cheese, or maybe you just like to watch the cheese on the television.

[Slaps self on hand] Stop it!!

I see you are from Clonsilla, do you follow the Mochta's senior team then? Since you follow your local team. Or one of the other local sides? I hear Castleknock Celtic have a decent senior team this year aswell.

Or are you just a big time charlie who watches teams from the Eircom League?

My point being that we can over qualify this local side business until everyone is watching their kids play ball in their garden just to prove they follow local football.

MrJoeSoap

Draupnir wrote:

I see you are from Clonsilla, do you follow the Mochta's senior team then? Since you follow your local team. Or one of the other local sides? I hear Castleknock Celtic have a decent senior team this year aswell.

Yep, know several of the lads off the Mochtas team. Get down to a few matches, the pitches are a 5 minute walk from my house. Used to play for Celtic, I went to school with most of the team (the 2nd senior team that is, the new and improved model). One of my best mates plays for them too, so I go to see them occasionally. I also get the Blanch Gazette every week to keep an eye on Verona, I know most of their lads from playing with them when I was younger.

To be honest, we aren't going to keep qualifying this until we are talking about the kids in the garden, this debate is mainly centred around professional teams, even though local clubs and Rockmount were mentioned in the op. To be honest, Mochtas are local, Shelbourne are fairly local, England is not.

I can't see why people solely support English teams, there's nothing wrong with following an English side at all, but if there is a local team worthy of support, then why not?

Draupnir

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Yep, know several of the lads off the Mochtas team. Get down to a few matches, the pitches are a 5 minute walk from my house. Used to play for Celtic, I went to school with most of the team (the 2nd senior team that is, the new and improved model). One of my best mates plays for them too, so I go to see them occasionally. I also get the Blanch Gazette every week to keep an eye on Verona, I know most of their lads from playing with them when I was younger.

I have a mate playing for Castleknock also, Eoin Conway, nice bloke and a good player.

MrJoeSoap wrote:

To be honest, we aren't going to keep qualifying this until we are talking about the kids in the garden, this debate is mainly centred around professional teams

Doesnt that mean that they selection in the eL is very limited if we are going for pro clubs only?

MrJoeSoap wrote:

, even though local clubs and Rockmount were mentioned in the op. To be honest, Mochtas are local, Shelbourne are fairly local, England is not.

Dalymount and Richmond Park are closer to Clonsilla than Tolka, so I can only assume that your decision to follow Shelbourne was made on their success rather than some romantic idea of locality?

MrJoeSoap wrote:

I can't see why people solely support English teams, there's nothing wrong with following an English side at all, but if there is a local team worthy of support, then why not?

Your idea of worthiness may differ from that of others.

MrJoeSoap

Draupnir wrote:

Dalymount and Richmond Park are closer to Clonsilla than Tolka, so I can only assume that your decision to follow Shelbourne was made on their success rather than some romantic idea of locality?

They are closer as the crow flies but in terms of getting to games (I don't drive) they are very awkward. I live beside the train station in and get the train to and from college in Maynooth every day, and Tolka is at least a half-hour more convenient than Dalymount, and Richmond Park takes ages to get to for me. I went to Inchicore lots as a child with my dad in the car, he and my brother support Pats, and was there for the Cork game a few years back.

So if you are suggesting that I support Shels because of their success I can only say you are cynical and wrong. My first Shels game was a friendly versus Spurs in the early 90's, I was at Tolka for the Ireland-Wales game in the early 90's as well, and I just really liked the place. Started going to see Shels farily regularly around 98, I think my first eL game at Tolka was a 2-2 draw against Rovers, where Jason Sherlock scored twice late on.

Benedict XVI

MrJoeSoap wrote:

but if there is a local team worthy of support, then why not?

And what defines 'worthy of support', are the kids in the back garden worth of support.

Some believe the EL is not worth of support, and I agree

MrJoeSoap

Benedict XVI wrote:

Some believe the EL is not worth of support, and I agree

Fair enough, no point arguing with you so.

Draupnir

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Tolka is at least a half-hour more convenient than Dalymount

Firstly, if you live 5 minutes from the Mochtas pitches, you dont live far from a 39 bus stop which goes within 10 minutes walk of Dalymount, so thats that theory out the window.

Secondly, is your point now that people should watch the convenient team rather than the local team?

Its more convenient for me to watch Match of the Day and the live matches on Sky than to go to an Eircom League game ya see.

If however, you have chosen to follow Shels because thats the team you would prefer to watch, fair play to you and I have no qualms with that. I watch Man United because thats who I prefer to watch. Fair enough no?

gimmick

Benedict XVI wrote:

Some believe the EL is not worth of support, and I agree

Why? What makes something worth watching? And if you say quality of football, and say you are a premiership fan, I'll laugh.

For me, what makes football worth watching is quite simple - you cannot replace the feeling of seeing your team win in front of you, after seeing the effort of all the players. Meeting them after the game and congratulating them is a nice feeling. The tension inside the ground in a close top of the table clash, the camaraderie that this brings about with your fellow fans. The feeling of release when the ref blows his final whistle, the relief, the euphoria. Even in the smaller games, the feeling is the same. Even the crushing lows one feels after losing are part and parcel of it all.

These are feelings which cannot be replaced, if fact cannot even be comprehended by those who arent regulars through the turnstile, any turnstile.

MrJoeSoap

Draupnir wrote:

Firstly, if you live 5 minutes from the Mochtas pitches, you dont live far from a 39 bus stop which goes within 10 minutes walk of Dalymount, so thats that theory out the window.

Yes, on a Friday evening, the 39 bus takes 45 minutes to reach the Cabra fork, from where it is at least a 20 minute walk, journey time: over an hour.

Train from Clonsilla to Drumcondra is less than 20 minutes, plus a 6 or 7 minute walk.

Draupnir wrote:

Secondly, is your point now that people should watch the convenient team rather than the local team?

Bohs, Pats and Shels are all local to me. I don't solely support Shels because they are convenient, but it certainly helps. It seems like I am being interrogated and villified for supporting an eL club here.

Draupnir wrote:

Its more convenient for me to watch Match of the Day and the live matches on Sky than to go to an Eircom League game ya see.

Thats your prerogative.

Draupnir wrote:

If however, you have chosen to follow Shels because thats the team you would prefer to watch, fair play to you and I have no qualms with that. I watch Man United because thats who I prefer to watch. Fair enough no?

Yup, live and let live.

I'm not referring to you here, but it annoys me when people speak down about our league. If you don't like it or want to watch thats fair enough, but posts like midget_lord's first one in this thread are unneccesary.

Töpher

As has been said, obviously if you have gone and not liked it, fair enough and I applaud anyone who tries one or two games for at least making some sort of effort.

I think the main annoyance is when Irish Premiership fans, and I lose the term fans loosely, put down the EL without having ever gone to a game once. They dismiss it as "crap" without ever watching a match, and thats the way they stay.

When someone dismisses it without ever giving it a shot, its like someone saying that a Porshe drives "crap" without ever trying to drive one! It makes no sense! What that situation means is they have preconceived ideas about how it will be, and then proclaim these notions as fact. That is what irritates people. Fine, say "I've never given it a shot, and I'm never going to because I have preconeived ideas in my head that I pulled from somewhere but I don't know where", but dismissal as "crap" and "shíte" without ever experiencing it is somewhat insulting and doesn't do the best for your own image. At least being able to say "Look lads, I gave it a shot a few times during the season, but it wasn't my cup o' tea" has some merit in a discussion.

For want of a better metaphor, its akin to a virgin saying they don't like having sex.

Draupnir

Dont misunderstand me, I'm not interrogating you, I'm just trying to make you realise that supporting football is a choice and who you support involves choices.

I've seen a lot of Eircom League games and most of them have been brutal. My first League of Ireland game was when I was about 7/8 years old, I saw Rovers -v- Bohs at the RDS. I was on a free schoolboy ticket as I played for Stella Maris in those days and Rovers used them as a feeder club.

However, I grew up to fall in love with the English league simply because it was what captured my imagination as a young lad growing up as a football fan. Man United did this moreso than watching Derek Swan, Robbie Best and Warren Parkes from the Shed in Dalymount.

Unlike a lot of people who might slag off Irish football here, I dont do it without reasonable reason.

Töpher

Draupnir wrote:

Dont misunderstand me, I'm not interrogating you, I'm just trying to make you realise that supporting football is a choice and who you support involves choices.

I've seen a lot of Eircom League games and most of them have been brutal. My first League of Ireland game was when I was about 7/8 years old, I saw Rovers -v- Bohs at the RDS. I was on a free schoolboy ticket as I played for Stella Maris in those days and Rovers used them as a feeder club.

However, I grew up to fall in love with the English league simply because it was what captured my imagination as a young lad growing up as a football fan. Man United did this moreso than watching Derek Swan, Robbie Best and Warren Parkes from the Shed in Dalymount.

Unlike a lot of people who might slag off Irish football here, I dont do it without reasonable reason.

Just out of interest, when was the last time you went?

I was attending games way back then too as a young fan, and the gulf between now and then is immense. There really has been some amazing strides forward over the past decade! Particularily the last couple of years. As you said, at least you've had some experiences to be able to base a judgement and hold a discussion on.

Benedict XVI

gimmick wrote:

Why? What makes something worth watching? And if you say quality of football, and say you are a premiership fan, I'll laugh.

Yes I am a Premiership fan and please don't try and tell me that the ELs quality of football is a good as that of the Premiership cos you know in your heart it's not and anyone who says it is is only fooling themselves.

Töpher

Perhaps you are correct, but without any experience of EL soccer how can you make that comparisson?

Draupnir

Last time I went was two seasons ago, I think, the year Bohs played Brondby, I think it was Brondby, in the Champions League qualifiers and narrowly lost. I have a poor head for remembering football matches I'm afraid. At least recent ones.

I went a lot more as a kid, as I was played for Bohs for years as a schoolboy and took part in many's a good halftime penalty shoot out competition in front of the shed with Barry joining in.

Sadly, Bohs is a much changed club since those days, for the better in terms of the quality of football but for the worse in terms of the club members and specifically the support.

Töpher

I think it may have been Rosenborg? Lost rather more heavily away IIRC Well, you always have Rovers out that way now! Heh.

Benedict XVI

Einst&#252 wrote: »

Perhaps you are correct, but without any experience of EL soccer how can you make that comparisson?

I've watched it on TV over the years, I watch the highlights show on TV3 every so often and flick through in whne it's on TG4 or the European Games on RTE, I'm quite sure at this stage that I would prefer to watch a premiership game that go to an EL game.

I don't have a problem with people who love their EL teams, fair play to them.
I however do have a problem with people who look down on football fans and who they support if they don't have any interest in local teams, as is the case in the article in the OP.

Töpher

But they're on different nights so why not do both?

//edit: forgot about the distance thing, thanks JS, and apologies

MrJoeSoap

He's from Mayo, its not viable really.

Draupnir

Einst&#252 wrote: »

I think it may have been Rosenborg? Lost rather more heavily away IIRC Well, you always have Rovers out that way now! Heh.

Youre probably right, in fact Im nearly sure you are, Rosenborg sounds right. I remember they had an outstanding player in the middle of midfield and Bobby Ryan played an absolute stormer on the right wing.

In fact, I remember enjoying the game immensely, even though I was sitting in the Connaught and had to take a slash in that make shift jacks beneath the stand which is really just a wall!

arbeitsscheuer

Einst&#252 wrote: »

But they're on different nights so why not do both?

Which is exactly what I do.

Born in London, started supporting Arsenal aged 9 or so.
Started supporting Shels, (who aren't really even my geographically "local" team, that would be Bohs), in 1997 I think.

I go to a few eircom league games at Tolka, watch as many as I can (whether they involve Shels or not) on the box, and I'm still annoyed at myself for having gotten through almost 3 years of college without going to Belfield Park to watch our eL team. Never got round to it (and nobody to go with, UCD are usually about as well-supported as a Nazi-rally in Tel Aviv).

But I love Arsenal - They are my first team, no question. Not by any rational choice, I grew up with them, I care about them far far more than I could ever care about Shels, that's just the way it is.

gimmick

Benedict XVI wrote:

Yes I am a Premiership fan and please don't try and tell me that the ELs quality of football is a good as that of the Premiership cos you know in your heart it's not and anyone who says it is is only fooling themselves.

No, I wont say the standard is as high, but some of the football is much better to watch.

And if its quality football you are after, and you are restricted to just watching football on the TV, why choose the premiership. Surely the Spanish League would be a far better option as the standards are far higher than England.

I've watched it on TV over the years, I watch the highlights show on TV3 every so often and flick through in whne it's on TG4 or the European Games on RTE, I'm quite sure at this stage that I would prefer to watch a premiership game that go to an EL game.

Which in a strange way, you have helped prove my point. By watching a game on the TV, or indeed, just watching highlights, you cannot get the whole story of a game. You can get an idea of the main talking points, but not a fully rounded view of a game. Put it this way, you watch a crappy match on the telly, and thats all it is, a crap match, you go to a match, and you have the plusses of the athmosphere, seeing the invariably crappy display by the linespeople, you have the off the ball incidents which the camera misses etc.

Now, that can be applied to every league in the world - its not me being 'a holier than thou eL fan', merely stating a fact. Just because our league isnt as glamourous, and not as high a standard as England shouldnt count for pennies. The fact of the matter is, is that you cant beat live football, and whetehr that is Cobh Ramblers Vs Dundalk, Barcelona Vs Espanyol, its almost always worth it.

therecklessone

gimmick wrote:

Which in a strange way, you have helped prove my point. By watching a game on the TV, or indeed, just watching highlights, you cannot get the whole story of a game. You can get an idea of the main talking points, but not a fully rounded view of a game. Put it this way, you watch a crappy match on the telly, and thats all it is, a crap match, you go to a match, and you have the plusses of the athmosphere, seeing the invariably crappy display by the linespeople, you have the off the ball incidents which the camera misses etc.

This comes as close to saying what I feel as any on the thread. Thanks again gimmick.

I'm a Spurs fan as well as Shels, and a season ticket holder at both. Yesterday I flew to London for Spurs vs Fulham at White Hart Lane. My ST cost me €950, so thats €50 a match. My flight cost me €50, and I booked into a hotel near Paddington Station for €80. I bought a day pass on the Tube yesterday and a single train ticket on the Heathrow Express today for a total cost of £19stg (call it €28), and again you factor in dinner yesterday, breakfast today, a few pints last night and a paper this morning I dished out over €230.

Whats that got to do with the EL? I could have sat at home and watched it on the box, thats what. I could, but I'd have missed 80 minutes of sitting on the edge of my seat willing my team on, jumping to my feet every time we got in the box, cringing every time Jermaine Jenas gave the ball away, screaming myself hoarse for every tackle. Thats something Sky Sports will never recreate.

And thats why I attend EL games. Because nothing can compare with attending a live match. Nothing.

Benedict XVI wrote:

I've watched it on TV over the years, I watch the highlights show on TV3 every so often and flick through in whne it's on TG4 or the European Games on RTE, I'm quite sure at this stage that I would prefer to watch a premiership game that go to an EL game.

Go to an EL match. Hell, go to a few. You'll be pleasantly surprised. There are a number of clubs playing fantastic football in the league at the moment. true, its not PL standard, but then the PL is not Spanish standard, and Spanish football is nothing compared to the Brazilian national team..and on and on and on...

This shouldn't be about supporting a "local" side or a foreign side, but about supporting the game itself. I love soccer with a passion. I watch it, listen to it, read about it, talk about it, even dream about it. the only thing I don't do is play it (but I'm a fat lazy b*stard with two left feet, so I'm useless at it... ). Sitting in your local drinking pints on a Sunday afternoon isn't supporting, getting off your ar*e and attending a match (any match) is.