Peter Crouch

midget lord

So have peoples opnion's of Crouchy changed at all?

p.pete

Well, what's your opinion?
What starting point do you think opinion was at and where would you imagine it to be now?
I think he still has to prove himself and still has to be given a chance to prove himself. There is no service for him at the moment so he's not having an easy time of it.

mada999

yeah he's decent, he needs to have some other striker playing alongside him. Cisse preferrably.....then we shall she the best of him...

his skill level is very good on the ball some great little touches....but for a tall chap his heading could be better, but I'm sure they are helping him with that in training.....

gracehopper

i agree he still has to prove himself. scoring goals for Soton is diff story than cutting it with a big club. i think Benitez has identified crouch and then bought him to carry out the same job as mista or corradi did for him at valencia

MrJoeSoap

He jumped ship, my opinion of him has been lowered significantly. Why is it that when people are part of a relegated squad they assume they are of a higher level and need to play in the division they were just relegated from?

midget lord

MrJoeSoap wrote:

He jumped ship, my opinion of him has been lowered significantly. Why is it that when people are part of a relegated squad they assume they are of a higher level and need to play in the division they were just relegated from?

He had a chance to move from a newly relegated saints side to the champions of europe. No competition.

p.pete wrote:

Well, what's your opinion?
What starting point do you think opinion was at and where would you imagine it to be now?
I think he still has to prove himself and still has to be given a chance to prove himself. There is no service for him at the moment so he's not having an easy time of it.

Last time i was around these parts all the 'in the know' fans were writing him off saying they had no idea whey rafa was buying him, he bull, etc.

Have we moved on from there?

jesus_thats_gre

Because the Premier League is played at a higher level than The Championship.. Its blatantly obvious..

I would also ask why he should show such loyalty to one club considering he has never been shown the loyalty (7 moves is it?).

Finally, it's Southampton

Chardee MacDennis

also its not as in he put in a transfer request the day they got relegated *cough*Defoe*cough*
and i have been saying he is a good signing since day one, its just a pity that the fans that seem to have jumped on the liverpool bandwagon are quite short sighted and not very knowledgable about football outside of what andy gray etc says.

MrJoeSoap

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

I would also ask why he should show such loyalty to one club considering he has never been shown the loyalty (7 moves is it?)

So Southampton signed him after numerous moves, then gave him a full season in which he showed himself to be good enough to score almost a goal every other game in the Premiership, and thats not showing him loyalty?

To be honest, it cant be the clubs fault every time he has made his "7" moves (can't be arsed to check exactly how many).

I'm fed up of people jumping ship from relegated clubs. They show NO respect for the fans.

*Cough* Defoe *Cough* Alan Smith *Cough*

Chardee MacDennis

well why is it jumping ship when Liverpool came in for him and he would have stayed if it wasnt liverpool. also Southampton made 7m profit from him. so its not as if he left them in the lurch.

MrJoeSoap

We made £5m profit from him. Minus wages, bonuses and signing-on fees.

If you are part of a squad that is relegated, you, in my opinion, have a duty to stay and help them get back to the league they came from. Unless the manager feels you have no part to play.

Prutton and Quashie have the right attitudes, Crouch doesn't. Irrespective of whether Liverpool came in for Crouch or not.

He was dignified when leaving, which is definitely to his credit, unlike Kevin Phillips...

astrofool

Didn't Quashie jump ship from Portsmouth? And before that, QPR?

MrJoeSoap

astrofool wrote:

Didn't Quashie jump ship from Portsmouth? And before that, QPR?

Em... No! He joined Southampton in the January transfer window last season, from a Portsmouth side numerous places above Southampton. We were looking fairly doomed at that stage, so its fair to say he actually jumped onto a sinking ship!

I don't remember him jumping ship from QPR, he left them to join Nottingham Forest in August 1998 if anyone wants to bother looking into it.

jesus_thats_gre

To be honest, I have a solution for all this.. No more transfers... EVER... Its ruining the game.. ahem

Guy:Incognito

MrJoeSoap wrote:

We made £5m profit from him. Minus wages, bonuses and signing-on fees

Its not all one way. You have to add merchandise and jersey sales, money from progressing/ winning due to his goals. He gave a year of service that none pf the southampton fans complained about in return for the wages. He got bonuses because he scored.

For the record, I dont like him and dont think we should have signed him. That money and the BAros money could have bought Owen.

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Prutton and Quashie have the right attitudes, Crouch doesn't. Irrespective of whether Liverpool came in for Crouch or not

Wht didnt Southampton turn down the bid so?

MrJoeSoap

Stekelly wrote:

money from progressing/winning due to his goals

Hehe..

MrJoeSoap

Stekelly wrote:

Wht didnt Southampton turn down the bid so?

We turned down bids of £6m from other clubs, but it became clear he wanted to leave, and Rupert Lowe (as he does so well) jumped at the chance of getting some money.

Chardee MacDennis

thats not true, they turned down bids of 6m coz they said he could leave if they were offered 7, which they were. if they really wanted to keep him, he would still be there.

p.pete

midget lord wrote:

Last time i was around these parts all the 'in the know' fans were writing him off saying they had no idea whey rafa was buying him, he bull, etc.

Have we moved on from there?

Yep, now he's a traitor

MrJoeSoap

Apologies for feeling slightly aggrieved here, every time we get a decent player, they leave.

Kevin Davies did it,
Wayne Bridge did it,
James Beattie did it.
And now Crouch has done it.

Why can't everyone be as loyal as St. Matt? I've more respect for that guy than for any other footballer ever.

Benedict XVI

MrJoeSoap wrote:

I'm fed up of people jumping ship from relegated clubs. They show NO respect for the fans.

Where do you live Joe, some economic Utopia.

You work for a company and that company goes through a rough patch, people are laid off, and you will not get a bonus this year and your expected wage increase is not going to happen, and thigs could get worse, do you

a) Stay where you are
b) Look for alternative work in similar but larger more stable companies elsewhere?

I know what I would do.

Fans of relegated clubs have to get one thing staright, post relegation the number of quality players wishing to leave will always be greater than the number of qulaity players wishing to stay. FACT !!!!

jesus_thats_gre

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Apologies for feeling slightly aggrieved here, every time we get a decent player, they leave.

Kevin Davies did it,
Wayne Bridge did it,
James Beattie did it.
And now Crouch has done it.

Why can't everyone be as loyal as St. Matt? I've more respect for that guy than for any other footballer ever.

Matt was one in a million and arguably wasted his career... I wonder does he look back now and wonder what he could have won at a decent club..

MrJoeSoap

Benedict XVI wrote:

Fans of relegated clubs have to get one thing staright, post relegation the number of quality players wishing to leave will always be greater than the number of qulaity players wishing to stay. FACT !!!!

That doesn't mean I should like it or sit back and shut up. Plus the vast majority of Saints players took massive pay cuts of up to 50% after relegation. We should definitely have been able to cope financially and not had to sell our biggest asset (in terms of players).

redspider

My opinion at the time was that Crouch was the wrong buy for Liverpool and I've only seen evidence in his/Liverpool's performances so far that support that position.

Time will tell, judge him in say another 5 games, and who knows, maybe we will be pleasantly surprised (shocked) and see him score a hat-trick against Chelsea, or maybe we wont. My money is on the latter.

redspider

midget lord

RS, do you not think he fits the bill in terms of playing 4-5-1? (Your personal feelings on 4-5-1 are irrelevant here) The rest of the team have not adapted immediately, by not getting forward to play off Crouch, but when this happens we will all see the difference he makes and the reasons Rafa bought him.

Guy:Incognito

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

Matt was one in a million and arguably wasted his career... I wonder does he look back now and wonder what he could have won at a decent club..

Similar could be said of Shearer. If he'd ahve gone to Utd I reckon they would have won more. What has he got to show for his career? a few england caps and a premiership medal. He followed the money though, so was in it for different reasons to le tiss, similar outcome though.

MrJoeSoap wrote:

That doesn't mean I should like it or sit back and shut up. Plus the vast majority of Saints players took massive pay cuts of up to 50% after relegation. We should definitely have been able to cope financially and not had to sell our biggest asset (in terms of players).

That probably wasnt by cjoie though. A lot of players at clubs that expect to hover around relegation would have relegation wage drop clauses in their contracts.


Leeds are an example of a club who didnt use such clauses.

mike65

Steve Bull is another player who could have left for the Premishship but stayed with Wolves. Bless him! Pity Keane was so ambitious. Ahem.

As for Crouching Tiger, I have'nt seen enough of him, but in the Betis game he showed his skill and vision, now if he only had Kewell to help him. Or even Garcia if he had the wit to play high enough up the field.

Mike.

Davei141

Ive been extremely impressed every game ive seen him in. He can only get better.

therecklessone

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Why can't everyone be as loyal as St. Matt? I've more respect for that guy than for any other footballer ever.

Everyone knows the pies at the Dell were the best in the league, Matt was going nowhere as long as that were the case...

Seriously though, what did you expect Crouch to do? Stick around for a season and try to help Southampton back up? What if failed to come up? Stay another season? IMO, Crouch did more than most at St Marys to try and avoid the drop last season, how long does he have to stay to repay the club's faith in him?

Chucky the tree

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Why can't everyone be as loyal as St. Matt? I've more respect for that guy than for any other footballer ever.

Was "St. Matt" every relegated with southampton?

PiE

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Plus the vast majority of Saints players took massive pay cuts of up to 50% after relegation..

Fair play to them, but how many would have stayed put had they been wanted by Liverpool? Or any of the mid-table Prem clubs for that matter?

You're never gonna have another Le Tissier.

MrJoeSoap

Chucky the tree wrote:

Was "St. Matt" every relegated with southampton?

Nope, thats why he is St. Matt. He single-handedly saved us on numerous occasions. I don't ever recall him being sent-off for petulance in the second last game of the season either....

jesus_thats_gre

Will you ever listen to yourself Joe.. You have been backed into a corner on this argument and instead of letting go, you are talking out of your backside..

How about if the same question is asked a different way. Would St. Matt have left the club if it got relegated.


St. Matt also played in a very different period when money has no where near the same influence as it does now. I think Robbie Fowler only started 10k a week when he turned 22 or 23 I think.. Compare that to what Micheal Owen was on at the same age..

redspider

midget lord wrote:

RS, do you not think he fits the bill in terms of playing 4-5-1? (Your personal feelings on 4-5-1 are irrelevant here) The rest of the team have not adapted immediately, by not getting forward to play off Crouch, but when this happens we will all see the difference he makes and the reasons Rafa bought him.

Hello ML, I guess I must be RS !

When you state 4-5-1, you have to elaborate as to what type of 4-5-1. Benitez seems to be picking a 4-2-3-1 formation. This is different than the "4-5-1/4-3-3" formation of Chelsea, which is 4-1-2-2-1.

In Benitez's 4-2-3-1 formation, Gerrard is the centre of the 3, and Zenden (terrible) and Sinama (better) have been the "wide" players. I think that if Liverpool had 10 players that were perfect to play this 4-2-3-1 formation, and there was one spot left to fill at the 1, then Crouch could do an ok job, not a brilliant job, just an ok one ala Niall Quinn. But thats the problem. Liverpool dont have the perfect players for this formation at the moment, imo. You can tell a player to play in a certain position, but if he doesnt have the skills for it, it just wont work. Crouch's control and distribution have been poor so far. As a target man, he just doesnt have enough pace in my books to run into the spaces. Crouch is an average player, no more, no less. So, does he fit the bill, yes, if you are a Birmingham, no if you are a Liverpool and aiming to win trophies.


ps: news on Morientes (another player just not good enough):

Manager Rafael Benitez had hoped his Spanish striker would be fit to face Jose Mourinho's men, but Morientes needs more time to recover from his hamstring problem. "Morientes felt something in his hamstring yesterday so he won't be fit," said Benitez. "It's a precaution, but it's a pity because we were thinking about him for this game."

Its funny how I predicted this would happen to him before the season started. I am not a psychic!

redspider

BolBill

Davei141 wrote:

Ive been extremely impressed every game ive seen him in. He can only get better.

So you have a white stick and wear dark glasses so ......

Pigman II

I don't know what it is but whenever most fans see a big gangly stick-insect of a player they automatically fool their own brain into rememering him doing nothing but tripping over the ball, hoofing shots over the bar and planting headers in row-z.

From what I've seen of him anyway Crouch has excellent skill when it comes to flicks and knock-downs and can also score some good goals to boot. I don't think he's scored for Liverpool this season but some of the goals he got for Southamption impressed me.

midget lord

I had a nice long reply to redspider and my IE crashed and i dont have the time to retype it at the momemt, so you will all have to wait with bated breath

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

evilhomer

Crouch is a good player. Harry Redknapp knew this last year and set his team up to play to Crouch's strengths. Liverpools wide players are not coming in off the wings and through the centre to help Crouch. So as a result he has no one to flick on for and the defenders don't have to track other players runs, which means that Crouch has no space for a shot himself.

If the Liverpool players worked hard to support him you would see a much better player.

I also think that himself and Cisse could form a very good partnership, with Cisse's pace and Crouch's flick-on's.

How many lone strikers do you see doing well if they don't get support from midfield or out wide?

Jivin Turkey

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Prutton and Quashie have the right attitudes, Crouch doesn't. Irrespective of whether Liverpool came in for Crouch or not.

Harry Redknapp would disagree with you I'm afraid.

http://home.skysports.com/list.asp?hlid=292671&plid=3773&clid=14&cpid=8

Crouch made no noises about demanding a move. The board accepted a bid and let Crouch talk to Liverpool. No contact was made before the board sanctioned the move.

You could hardly expect him to turn down a move from a team of Southamptons size to the newly crowned champions of Europe, whether
Southampton had been relegated or not.

Crouch's conduct throughout the move was excellent.

As for how I rate him. I'm still interested in seeing what he has to do. He has shown some great touches. Hopefully he can start to produce some more goals.

TheDoc

My opinion hasnt changed, he was a good player before he joined and still is a good player. But he is looking bad in a bad team. People need to wake up and nderstand liverpool rnt a big club anymore, not like they used to be. and they cl iwn will not change this, because everyone knows it was a lucky random fluke mch like greece, something not to be repeated. The cl was won with a group of mediocre players and some talented players.

Crouch has great potential. I heard of him before reading an article for a south'ton res game. The writer said he had amazing technical abiltiy for such a tall stature. But Liverpool are a very weak supplying team. The flanks are dry and dead. Alonso and Gerrard provide good straight through direct supply but on the wings Riise and garcia and to an extent zenden are not good players who prefer trying to take someone on then cross a ball, which crouch needs. Also he is playing up top with 2 very poor strikers. Morientas has been a massive disapointment and Ciise has been all round terible since he arrived. The huss and fuss of his arrival was over the top, he tries to be an arrogant striker like henry, except ciise looks like a sap with bad appearances and the fact he doesnt score. A very bad player. Baros was sold because all he did was put his head down and sprint, Ciise does the same except he breaks limbs doing it =/

If liverpool want to make serious challenges at the top they need to get an outstanding striker. Rafa saying he doesnt want Owen back because he is happy is jsut him swallowing some liverpool pride. They were desperate for him, hes what they need. A good goalscorer.

In some short time when the side pick up form we should see crouch perform well. He will be a big premiership player, literally.

MrJoeSoap

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

Will you ever listen to yourself Joe.. You have been backed into a corner on this argument and instead of letting go, you are talking out of your backside..

How about if the same question is asked a different way. Would St. Matt have left the club if it got relegated.

How am I supposed to answer this?

I don't think I'm talking out of my backside. Crouch was excellent for us last season, he kept us in with a shout. He did, however, stupidly get himself sent off for nothing other than petulance in the penultimate game against Palace, ruling himself out of the final game against Man Utd.

It's sad to see that players nowadays are just expected to up and leave if the likes of Liverpool or Chelsea come in for them. Of course its a great opportunity for Crouch and I completely understand why he took it.

That doesn't mean I have to agree with it, or agree with the points you are making. He was dignified when leaving, but "polite meaningless words" to the Southampton fans aren't going to help us at all.

PS - If I don't agree with your points I don't accuse you of talking out of your backside, I'd appreciate if you would do the same.

Jivin Turkey

MrJoeSoap wrote:

It's sad to see that players nowadays are just expected to up and leave if the likes of Liverpool or Chelsea come in for them. Of course its a great opportunity for Crouch and I completely understand why he took it.

That doesn't mean I have to agree with it, or agree with the points you are making. He was dignified when leaving, but "polite meaningless words" to the Southampton fans aren't going to help us at all.

How can you understand it but not agree with it?

This thing happens in all walks of life, its called ambition. In particular in this case Crouch was promised that he would be an integral part of the Liverpool team, not a bit part player like say Scott Parker at Chelsea or Liam Miller at United.

MrJoeSoap

Jivin Turkey wrote:

How can you understand it but not agree with it?

I can understand that the European Champions came in for him and he wanted to join them.

I don't agree that this should always be the way. Soccer is not always about making more money. And to be blatantly honest, if he thinks he is going to win something at Liverpool other than maybe a domestic cup, he is more than likely going to be mistaken.

Southampton kick-started his career, gave him a regular chance, got him a call-up to the England squad and recognition. And all we got in return were polite meaningless words...

(And £7m, but I'd be very surprised if we saw that money, we only spent £90k on Fuller during the summer. Thanks very much Rupert Lowe)

Jivin Turkey

MrJoeSoap wrote:

I can understand that the European Champions came in for him and he wanted to join them.

MrJoeSoap wrote:

I don't agree that this should always be the way. Soccer is not always about making more money. And to be blatantly honest, if he thinks he is going to win something at Liverpool other than maybe a domestic cup, he is more than likely going to be mistaken.

Do you think Crouch's motivation for moving was money? It's about ambition. I'm sure he would have taken a pay cut to join Liverpool if that what was required.

Even if he were only ever going to win a domestic cup at Liverpool (after all they havn't won anything else of note in recent years :rolleyes:), it is a hell of a lot more than he would win at Championship level with Southampton.

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Southampton kick-started his career, gave him a regular chance, got him a call-up to the England squad and recognition. And all we got in return were polite meaningless words...

Crouch's career has been reasonably bouyant through out. It was only managerial changes at Villa that stagnated it temporarily. I don't think he owed a season in the Championship to Southampton, particularly after he almost kept them up, and was sold at a 250% profit after only six months.

midget lord

redspider wrote:

In Benitez's 4-2-3-1 formation, Gerrard is the centre of the 3, and Zenden (terrible) and Sinama (better) have been the "wide" players. I think that if Liverpool had 10 players that were perfect to play this 4-2-3-1 formation, and there was one spot left to fill at the 1, then Crouch could do an ok job, not a brilliant job, just an ok one ala Niall Quinn. But thats the problem. Liverpool dont have the perfect players for this formation at the moment, imo. You can tell a player to play in a certain position, but if he doesnt have the skills for it, it just wont work. Crouch's control and distribution have been poor so far. As a target man, he just doesnt have enough pace in my books to run into the spaces. Crouch is an average player, no more, no less. So, does he fit the bill, yes, if you are a Birmingham, no if you are a Liverpool and aiming to win trophies.

Crouch certainly displayed his 'poor touch' last night eh.

redspider

midget lord wrote:

Crouch certainly displayed his 'poor touch' last night eh.

Yes, he did! What game were you watching?

I realise Donkey Dunphy on RTE took out 3 excerpts of Crouch control at half-time, but he didnt show the other 25 excerpts of Crouch not getting the ball under control, or able to control it well or pass it to a Liverpool player at the right pace, etc. If you watch Crouch closely on every ball sent in his general direction, you will see that in last nights game at any rate that he is a poor percentages player.

I thought in the first half he was quite poor apart from a few lay-offs he got right, such as the one for Hyypia's penalty claim, although that was more a mis-judge by Terry rather than brilliant play by Crouch, but his header was fine. But he is a low perentage target man, and his close ball control is not so good. The other players (Gerrard, Hamann, Alonso) also dont know how many touches he is going to take or which way he is going to go with the ball.

He did better in the 2nd half. Chelsea did battle to control him, Liverpool got loads of free-kicks because of him. But, that was about it. I think Liverpool would do much better with a scorer in this position and keep Crouch for the Birmingham away games.

Now, one thing we have to add perhaps in Crouch's favour is that Chelsea have very good defenders, so he was up against strong opponents. But as a striker, did he get a shot/header at goal in the whole match? I dont think so. Did he get control of the ball and set someone up for a chance and create an opening. nope.

As I said, I'm willing to give Crouch more matches before casting a vote on his credentials, as any team would take time to adapt to his capabilities and attributes. However, so far, things dont seem to be shaping up very well with Crouch as a player in the team, and overall, with a team shaped around a Crouch attack, I cant see it being anyway productive in winning matches and bringing home trophies.

A pity that your IE crashed as I would have liked to have read your long post.

redspider

ps: Can someone put Donkey Dunphy in the Donkey Sanctuary and put us out of his misery ?!?

MrJoeSoap

Crouch was alright last night, not great, not poor.

tel922001

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Crouch was alright last night, not great, not poor.

where u looking at the same game as everyone else?, he was man of the match in my terms , he gave john terry a torrid time and was liverpools best player

segadreamcast

tel922001 wrote:

where u looking at the same game as everyone else?, he was man of the match in my terms , he gave john terry a torrid time and was liverpools best player

I agree with Joe to be honest. Not great, not poor.

midget lord

Are you guys for fooking real? The man was man of the match last night by a long way. He was terrific. The meanest defensive side in the premiership couldnt deal with him.