Improving Dublin Bus

gjim

Whos going to be the initial enforcer of this prior to the arrival of the garda?
With some routes the bus will never get anywhere AND its the same in Glasgow and other large cities! After dark some upper decks are no go areas.

There will have to be more ticket inspectors - like the crowd that check tickets at the Luas - and they would be in constant radio contact the guards if they feel in anyway threatened. And it's not the same in ALL other cities - it's only the same in other cities which tolerate the sort of sh*t that's allowed on the upper decks on buses in Dublin. Try sparking up a spiff and shouting abuse at fellow passengers in Germany and start your stopwatch to see how long you last before the transport polizei drag you off.

If you create a comfortable environment for smoking spliffs and drinking cider on the upper decks, then don't be surprised that a customer base for your facilities develops. Once it becomes apparent that there's a good chance that you'll end up sitting in a Guarda station for an hour or more and have your hash and cans confiscated if you spark up, start drinking or threaten or abuse other passengers then very quickly you'll find somewhere else to do your drinking and smoking (at home preferably). Being made sit in a Garda station for a couple of hours will kill the "party" mood.

The initial pain of having the bus held up while the Guards drag scumbags off the bus will quickly subside as the lesson sinks in. To be honest, I reckon that for most passengers, the enjoyable spectacle of the Garda manhandling indignant scumbags off the bus would compensate for the delay. It would for me anyway.

parsi

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

http://www.askaboutireland.ie/show_narrative_page.do?page_id=1253
More on CIE Atlanteans, I used to think they were the nicest looking buses.

I always thought these were nicer http://www.preservedirishtransport.com/van%20hool%20D%20advertisement%20gallery.htm as a culchie I found the older Atlanteans a pain because if you were standing downstairs the windows were too low to see out (and see where you were..)

cdebru

Metrobest wrote:

The practice of buses changing drivers in the middle of the city is ridiculous and must by phased out. It's a practice that suits Dublin Bus - not passengers who subidise its incompetent route network. We need new routes and new work practices that involve drivers having their cuppa at the terminus or at the depot. .

Yeah all you have to do is install canteen facilities on 1000 buses

Metrobest wrote:

Also. I feel that the double deckers are clumsy and inefficient. For far too long they dwell at stops, clog up city streets, are late and frustrate passengers. Plus, their fumes damage the environment and pollute cyclists. Double Deckers are a parasite in Dublin. We don't any more double decker buses for Dublin Bus. .

Honestly have you even given this the slightest bit of tought

Why are they clumsy

How do they clog up streets that single deckers would not

Why would single deckers not be late and frustrate passengers

And then fumes damage the enviroment Single deckers carry about 50 passengers double decks about 90 so you would need twice as many single decks to supply the same service
Do single deckers use half the ammount of diesel a double deck does NO
Do single decks emit half the ammount of exhaust NO

So your idea would actually increase the enviromental damage and massively increase the costs in Fuel wages and materials

Metrobest wrote:

We need privatisation and competition. We need a modern route network and modern passenger services such as integrated ticketing and digital time displays, and ticket machines at all stops. We need rear door exits and announcements of every stop..

Yes because privatisation has been such a success where it has been tried

the network is being reviewed

Integrated ticketing is alledgedly on the way but it involves more than just DB

Digital time displays also alledgedly on the way it was trialed and is meant to be extended

Ticket machines at all stops would be unworkable as there are too many stops the cost would be astronomical

Well you would want to get your saw out as the rear doors are not on new buses

Announcements at every stop how ****ing annoying would that be with ten stops on the one road
It might be handy for the tourists but for regular users I would imagine it would quickly piss people off

Metrobest wrote:

More basic, we need a system where you pay X amount, say 1.60, and this allows you up to 90 minutes travel on DB's network. That's so basic you wonder what's stopping Dublin Bus implementing it. You know, even the Aircoach has integrated ticketing: you can go from Leeson Street - Belfast on one 7EUR ticket. Dublin's Bus won't even let you go from Heuston to Santry on one ticket! .

Hello travel 90 it already exists

And wow aircoach with three routes have integrated ticketing

So have dublin Bus you can buy a weekly ticket a daily ticket or a travel 90 ticket and travel on as many buses as you like and you can buy them before you enter the Bus so there is no delay to your journey

Metrobest wrote:

Finally, a more modern fleet would comprise single deckers terminating at each end of the city in Parnell Square and Merrion Square. The cross-city connection passengers would make via efficient underground metro and luas.

What planet are you on

With ideas like yours you should consider a job in Dublin Bus management you clearly have not given any tought to your suggestions you are exactly what they are looking for.
You clearly have no idea what you are talking about suggesting thing that already exist or would be unworkable its a pity you missed out they were looking for a CEO a few weeks ago

cdebru

gjim wrote:

There will have to be more ticket inspectors - like the crowd that check tickets at the Luas - and they would be in constant radio contact the guards if they feel in anyway threatened. And it's not the same in ALL other cities - it's only the same in other cities which tolerate the sort of sh*t that's allowed on the upper decks on buses in Dublin. Try sparking up a spiff and shouting abuse at fellow passengers in Germany and start your stopwatch to see how long you last before the transport polizei drag you off.

If you create a comfortable environment for smoking spliffs and drinking cider on the upper decks, then don't be surprised that a customer base for your facilities develops. Once it becomes apparent that there's a good chance that you'll end up sitting in a Guarda station for an hour or more and have your hash and cans confiscated if you spark up, start drinking or threaten or abuse other passengers then very quickly you'll find somewhere else to do your drinking and smoking (at home preferably). Being made sit in a Garda station for a couple of hours will kill the "party" mood.

The initial pain of having the bus held up while the Guards drag scumbags off the bus will quickly subside as the lesson sinks in. To be honest, I reckon that for most passengers, the enjoyable spectacle of the Garda manhandling indignant scumbags off the bus would compensate for the delay. It would for me anyway.

I agree completely

SickCert

The initial pain of having the bus held up while the Guards drag scumbags off the bus will quickly subside as the lesson sinks in. To be honest, I reckon that for most passengers, the enjoyable spectacle of the Garda manhandling indignant scumbags off the bus would compensate for the delay. It would for me anyway.

The last time i called the garda, the response time was 15 minutes.
The fight was finished and the contestants had walked away.
Its a great suggestion for the city limits, but go some distance out and your on your own. Hopefully the new CCTV system will be reliable and become our new buddy! I dont think the Garda is a threat to them anymore when they have drink or drugs on them.

Xylophonic

gjim wrote:

The initial pain of having the bus held up while the Guards drag scumbags off the bus will quickly subside as the lesson sinks in. To be honest, I reckon that for most passengers, the enjoyable spectacle of the Garda manhandling indignant scumbags off the bus would compensate for the delay. It would for me anyway.

Many a time I've been on the 27 when we took a detour to Coolock Grada Station, but that has'nt happened in a while....

MrPudding

gjim wrote:

To be honest, I reckon that for most passengers, the enjoyable spectacle of the Garda manhandling indignant scumbags off the bus would compensate for the delay. It would for me anyway.

I can confirm that it is indeed ample compensation.

MrP

murphaph

At least 1/2 the stops need to be removed from the network. People should walk a bit further to their nearest stop in order to maintain a better, faster bus journey. How many effing stops does the 39 make on the loop around Hartstown/Hiunstown? It's ridiculous and it happens on all routes. Not blaming BAC on this as if they attempt to do this the people who have to walk further will go nuts and be whinging to their local representatives who will whinge to the minister and then it'll be changed back in time for the election.

Is the network review really comprehensive? proper orbital routes and cross city routes on the way? The days of 'an lar' are numbered and it's high time we realised this.

fly_agaric

murphaph wrote:

At least 1/2 the stops need to be removed from the network. People should walk a bit further to their nearest stop in order to maintain a better, faster bus journey. How many effing stops does the 39 make on the loop around Hartstown/Hiunstown? It's ridiculous and it happens on all routes. Not blaming BAC on this as if they attempt to do this the people who have to walk further will go nuts and be whinging to their local representatives who will whinge to the minister and then it'll be changed back in time for the election.

Don't know about this. The extra 10-15 minutes you would have to walk to the nearest stop may seem like nothing to a young and healthy person when offset against the gain of a faster journey for everyone on the bus but what about the elderly and disabled? Although perhaps that will be irrelevent if Dublin Bus fixes on profit as its main aim. There's less gold to be made from facilitating "old codgers" who mostly have free travel anyway.

_Kaiser_

Xylophonic wrote:

Many a time I've been on the 27 when we took a detour to Coolock Grada Station, but that has'nt happened in a while....

Ah I could tell you some stories about THAT lot .. some are as bad as the passengers you're talking about

Victor

fly_agaric wrote:

Don't know about this. The extra 10-15 minutes you would have to walk to the nearest stop may seem like nothing to a young and healthy person

Stops are typicly about 300-400m apart, closer in the city centre. Not 10-15 minutes walk.

LIAR! LIAR! PANTS ON FIRE!

Calina

Victor wrote:

Stops are typicly about 300-400m apart, closer in the city centre. Not 10-15 minutes walk.

I believe the bus stops in Brussels are typically 800m apart. I have never understood why it's not the case in Dublin. A five minute walk to the bus stop is okay by me.

OfflerCrocGod

murphaph wrote:

At least 1/2 the stops need to be removed from the network. People should walk a bit further to their nearest stop in order to maintain a better, faster bus journey. How many effing stops does the 39 make on the loop around Hartstown/Hiunstown? It's ridiculous and it happens on all routes.

Could not agree more! The 39 is mad for this crap there are bus stops every 100m for crying out loud; there should be a cull of bus stops - everyone get your guns!

Victor

BrianD wrote:

Passengers need to be encouraged to go upstairs on buses rather than crowding the downstairs saloon. People seem to be afraid to make their way through the bus and find a seat.

Just stand on them. I've got on busses, seen the front packed, empty seats down the back. I ask people to move / move down the back. People refuse. I go down the back and sit down. 10+ stops later I get off. I stand on the same people on the way out.

Zaph0d

There's no reason that stops should be twice as frequent on the bus as on the Luas and no reason that the Luas ticketing equipment and method of checking can't be used.

see also:
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=192277

fly_agaric

Victor wrote:

Stops are typicly about 300-400m apart, closer in the city centre. Not 10-15 minutes walk.

LIAR! LIAR! PANTS ON FIRE!

:rolleyes: I never said they are 10-15 minutes walk apart now, at present did I? I was suggesting an arbitrary walking distance that might separate the stops if they were to be further apart in future.

Metrobest

Cdebru, not canteen facilites on buses; at the termini. I'm talking about prefabricated "mini canteens" with tea & coffee faciltities, a microwave, fridge and whatnot. I've seen such a system in operation at tram termini in Amsterdam: the drivers and tram staff seem to like it as it creates good team spirit amongst the staff on the same route. Passengers also like it because their journeys aren't affected by drivers' meal times.

So you find announcements "f**king annoying"? Poor you. I suppose you haven't considered the blind, the visually impaired and the elderly. And yes, the tourist. Even for a local, it's often difficult to know where you are on an unfamiliar route. Street signs in Dublin leave a lot to be desired. Then there are those rainy cold winter evenings when you need to wipe the condensation off the window to see out, and everything looks black and bleak. Even then, an announcement of each stop would be "f**king annoying" for passengers, would it?

Travel 90 are only available from selected newsagents. That's hardly convenient. And I think they're only available in multipacks. Again, hardly handy, is it?

Integrated ticketing is easy. Surely it's possible to pay the driver 1.60 in coins and have him print off a ticket with the time and date on it. This ticket would then be valid for 90minutes from time of issue; you would show it to the driver of the next bus you board - he could stamp it if neccessary. This isn't rocket science - Aircoach have such a system in operation for Dublin-Belfast in which you can board at Leeson Street, ask for a ticket to Belfast and the ticket you get covers your journey to the airport. A step-up in ticket inspections would eliminate any potential for increased fraud.

I hate DD buses for several reasons. At stops they dwell for far too long as passengers must negotiate a stairs. They are an intimidating presence on city streets for cyclists and pedestrians. The upper deck capacity tends to be underutilised - in part due to a reputation for antisocial behavious, in itself encouraged by the spatial nature of the two-floor vehicle.

In most of the world's high-density cities, including Sao Paolo, Brazil, single decker buses provide adequate capacity to service demand. Why does Dublin need Double Deckers? Do we always have to copy London's worst mistakes?

murphaph

Metrobest wrote:

So you find announcements "f**king annoying"? Poor you. I suppose you haven't considered the blind, the visually impaired and the elderly. And yes, the tourist. Even for a local, it's often difficult to know where you are on an unfamiliar route. Street signs in Dublin leave a lot to be desired. Then there are those rainy cold winter evenings when you need to wipe the condensation off the window to see out, and everything looks black and bleak. Even then, an announcement of each stop would be "f**king annoying" for passengers, would it?

Agreed. God you've just brought back memories of the old condensation on a winter's evening bus ride home. Complete blackness outside the oul number 68.

Metrobest wrote:

Integrated ticketing is easy. Surely it's possible to pay the driver 1.60 in coins and have him print off a ticket with the time and date on it. This ticket would then be valid for 90minutes from time of issue; you would show it to the driver of the next bus you board

They do this in Glasgow of first buses anyway. No big deal is made of it either. DB could easily introduce it-they use the same wayfarer ticket machines and everything!

Don't get your gripe with DD's metrobest (no laughing at the back!). They use them in Berlin and Hong Kong too, not just in british cities. I think, having seen the bendi-bus in action in Dublin, that DD's are a better job. SD's are a waste of time on all but the quietest routes IMO. The 39 switched to SD operation when it became city-swift, it was unable to cope and now it's all back to lowfloor DD's. Much better.

SickCert

Cdebru, not canteen facilites on buses; at the termini. I'm talking about prefabricated "mini canteens" with tea & coffee faciltities, a microwave, fridge and whatnot.

We have one large one at the inner terminus, as for the outer - it wouldnt be used. I not prepared to sit in the middle of a corpo estate in a small shed while my bus get trashed too.

I hate DD buses for several reasons. At stops they dwell for far too long as passengers must negotiate a stairs. They are an intimidating presence on city streets for cyclists and pedestrians. The upper deck capacity tends to be underutilised - in part due to a reputation for antisocial behavious, in itself encouraged by the spatial nature of the two-floor vehicle.

The Deckers load at the same rate as any other bus and leave less passengers behind. Cyclists would find all large road users scary, not just them terrible buses. Up to about 9pm the upper decks are normally used by all without fear of antisocial behaviour.

In most of the world's high-density cities, including Sao Paolo, Brazil, single decker buses provide adequate capacity to service demand. Why does Dublin need Double Deckers? Do we always have to copy London's worst mistakes?

Deckers were ordered by all local councils throughout britain not just London.
Check CIE's history of bus building and compare to London - we didnt copy anyone. The industry was moving in that direction and the decker has ruled since. The decker has also started to take off in the states, with new ones in New York and Vegas. Hong Kong is also a victim of them deckers.

SickCert

SD's are a waste of time on all but the quietest routes IMO. The 39 switched to SD operation when it became city-swift, it was unable to cope and now it's all back to lowfloor DD's. Much better.

Every route to ever get 'cityswifted' has reverted back to DD operation.
All 'imp' routes are now carrying full DD loads.

So they sold most the single deckers, except a handful.

The deckers are far more useful here than bendi's, our roads are too narrow in the city.

markpb

DonnybrookGhost wrote:

Just to go back to an earlier point about middle doors, Dublin Bus do not make buses with midle doors anymore.

I fail to see what difference that makes. Old buses do have middle doors, newer buses *could* have middle doors. Buses that do have middle doors should use them.

DonnybrookGhost wrote:

For the ones that have middle doors, they are more than likely not used because if you are unloading passengers at a busy street someone might jump on without paying their fare.

Again I point to all the other cities around the world that have and use middle doors. I'm sure they have their fair share of undesirables but they obviously deal with it. In LA the doors close (or attempt to) after each person gets off. Not the best solution. Other cities, the bus driver refuses to leave and people stare and give out until the offender gets off.

Then if the bus was in an accient the person that got on would not be insured. So who is to blame, the driver. Why should a driver loose their job over something as simple as that.

Find a solution. Accept that it might happen and agree that bus drivers will not be held responsible. This sounds like the typical union cover-my-ass attitude that stops anything being done in this country.

Plus for safety reason, the door will not be used because if the middle door is open the bus cannot drive. So if a gang of thugs decide to rob the driver, what is he to do?

If there was a problem with the doors when the buses arrived, then DB should have had it rectified. There is no-one else to blame for that. If the doors have stopped because they were never used, then they should be fixed and put into use.

I don't know what you mean about the gang of thugs. I'm sure assaults on bus drivers have reduced since the autofare system was broght in. Do you envisage drivers making a high speed getaway in the event someone tries to rob them?

markpb

Xylophonic wrote:

[*] The introduction of integrated ticketing

At least two years before the tender process begins again thanks to the incompetence of the RPA and the ignorance of DB missing the point of an "integrated" ticketing system.

Xylophonic wrote:

[*] The introduction of real time passenger infromation

At least five years away due to the speed things happen in this country.

Xylophonic wrote:

[*] In about 5/6 years time the whole fleet will be low-floor

Definitely a good idea but a) will make no difference to the vast majority of passengers and b) is probably a legal requirement anyway.

Xylophonic wrote:

you would have heard minister cullen saying he is working closely with DB who are trying to restructutre there whole network.

I agree with you about government funding but the point of my origianl post wast to point out the changes DB could make without spending huge amounts of money. I shudder at the thought of Cullen being closely involved in anything.

markpb

gjim wrote:

Introduce a zero tolerance for anti-social behaviour and fare avoidance. This might require legislation but it should be automatically a Garda matter and you should be taken to a Garda station to give your details and pay your fine. Absolutely no anti-social behaviour or smoking/drinking/etc. should be tolerated.

Perhaps they could let DB drivers switch their radios onto the garda band so they could ask for assistance from any guards in the vicinity. I think the reason they guards are rarely involved is because the drivers can't find them.

gjim wrote:

None of this is fanciful; all of this has been done elsewhere but it would require serious money, effort and management /political skills to introduce.

*sigh*

Which means it'll probably never happen.

markpb

cdebru wrote:

the network is being reviewed

Are we ever to be told of this review? Or would that be because it consists of dropping quiet routes and making minor modifications to the existing timetable? Will we see new buses connecting to the Luas and Dart? Will we see new buses running orbital routes?

cdebru wrote:

Integrated ticketing is alledgedly on the way but it involves more than just DB

Integrated ticketing isn't all that hard to achieve. We already have it in the form of monthly bus and rail cards. We just want more of it.

What the RPA and DB are currently screwing up is smartcard ticketing, a completely different thing.

cdebru wrote:

Digital time displays also alledgedly on the way it was trialed and is meant to be extended

Trialled about five years ago on one route and still another five years before it'll be finished. Why does it take so long so get one project done?

cdebru wrote:

Ticket machines at all stops would be unworkable as there are too many stops the cost would be astronomical

True but not at busy stops where it would make a *huge* difference to dwell times. More effecient buses mean more money for DB as resources are better used and also means more passengers. It's not like we're asking them to throw money into a black hole.

cdebru wrote:

Well you would want to get your saw out as the rear doors are not on new buses

But we still have lots of buses that *do* have middle doors. Is this an all or nothing idea; would drivers be too confused by operating middle doors on some buses but no on others? I think you underestimate them.

cdebru wrote:

Announcements at every stop how ****ing annoying would that be with ten stops on the one road

Compomise. An announcement everytime the bus enters a new street or area. Orange County, CA buses have automated announcements tied to a GPS system so the computer works out where it is and reads the street name. It's hardly intrusive.

cdebru wrote:

With ideas like yours you should consider a job in Dublin Bus management you clearly have not given any tought to your suggestions you are exactly what they are looking for.

With an attitude like you'rs, you'll be perfect for any job in public transport in Ireland. Knock every idea because it involves change.

cdebru

markpb wrote:

I don't know what you mean about the gang of thugs. I'm sure assaults on bus drivers have reduced since the autofare system was broght in. Do you envisage drivers making a high speed getaway in the event someone tries to rob them?

Opening the centre doors was a tactic used by various scumbags in parts of the city to disable the bus so they could rob assault the driver or vandalise the bus or all three

Whilst the number of assaults has fallen since the introduction of autofare drivers are still assaulted on a regular basis

SickCert

Back to the centre doors being used for robbery.

For those of you that dont know - when the centre doors are open the gearbox is disengaged, so the bus cannot move.

So open doors from the outside then throw a piece of timber on the platform and hey presto, rob the driver, break all the windows etc.

The realistic dangers of this was the drivers response and self preservation was to remove the red/green button from the outside of the bus. They just prise off and render the system useless. The dangers of accident/emergency were not as severe as the dangers of being stuck in nowhere at anyones mercy.

Anyone who doubts the dangers of being a driver and assaults please read the garage news here.

http://www.freewebs.com/dublinbusringsend/

Zaph0d

The driver is less likely to be attacked if he doesn't take cash. Drivers shouldn't issue tickets because it degrades the service by increasing dwell times.

Buses with rear doors operate in nasty neighbourhoods around the world. People seem to think Dublin has a special breed of skanger one step beyond anyone else but I think London's Hackney is worse than anything we have to offer and it's full of buses with rear doors.

daymobrew

markpb wrote:

Compomise. An announcement everytime the bus enters a new street or area. Orange County, CA buses have automated announcements tied to a GPS system so the computer works out where it is and reads the street name. It's hardly intrusive.

San Francisco buses (btw, all single decks) display the intersection on the inside front of the bus. Very useful to tourists, like I was. There were some announcements.
Some buses stopped every block! Great for people boarding.

The buses also used back doors for exit - when you stepped onto the step in front of the door the door opened, closing right after you.

Another great thing that the bus company (MUNI) had:a phone number that you can call and the operator will help you get to your destination. I gave my start point and destination and was told the bus(es) to take.
You pay the flat $1.50 fare and get a 'transfer' pass, like the Travel 90 ticket here, but you don't have to purchase in advance.
I tried the same here, asking for Phibsborough Road to Malahide Road (Fairview) and was told about buses to Malahide. The person hadn't a clue.

SickCert

The driver is less likely to be attacked if he doesn't take cash.

Some attacks are of a personal nature and wallet and phone the norm - the result being some drivers only carry €10 max.

Drivers shouldn't issue tickets because it degrades the service by increasing dwell times.

This is a reciept for your travel, a record of a cash transaction.

People seem to think Dublin has a special breed of skanger one step beyond anyone else but I think London's Hackney is worse than anything we have to offer and it's full of buses with rear doors.

No the problem lies with the Volvo safety feature, i talk to drivers throughout the UK and this simple way of disabling a bus is widespread knowledge.

Zaph0d

SickCert wrote:

This is a reciept for your travel, a record of a cash transaction.

Sorry, I meant to say fares shouldn't be accepted on board at all.

The problem lies with the Volvo safety feature, i talk to drivers throughout the UK and this simple way of disabling a bus is widespread knowledge.

Are you saying there are non-volvo buses without this feature? Can it not be disabled fairly easily?