Gay Bashing Protest

RogueVox

Does anyone know the full story of what happened at the George on Saturday. I know that there was a gay bashing incident, but I can't find out what's actually happened.

I do know there's a protest on Monday, and watch out for more info on it.

azezil

Really? didn't hear anything, wasn't there Saturday but my friends were and we went Sunday, they didn't mention anything!

Stark

A few skangers ran into the lane by the George, punched a few people and broke one guy's nose.

http://www.queerid.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3429

danielbr

Hey,

As some of you may have already read on queerid.com I have been organising a protest / rally in light of what had happened outside the george last saturday.

The details are as follows.

MEETING AT: THE GEORGE Monday 3rd Oct.
TIME: 12:00
MOVING OFF: 12:35
MARCHING TO: FOUR COURTS

I hope to see as many people there as possible. There is already HUGE support for this from lots of different groups in our community.

If you need any info please let me know. Call me on 0876924260 email danielbr@eircom.net

Thanks for your continued support and SPREAD THE WORD

Boston

Whats the aim of the march? Is it to highlight the garda response?

Raghallaigh

ANTI HATE CRIMES PROTEST

SUPPORTED BY:
UNION OF SECONDARY STUDENTS
BELONG TO
UNION OF STUDENTS IN IRELAND
JOHNNY & MORE
MEETING AT THE GEORGE - MONDAY 3RD OCT. 12 - 12:30 THEN HEADING TO THE FOUR COURTS AT APPROX 12:35.
THIS PROTEST IS IN RESPONSE TO ATTACKS AGAINST THE LESBEEN, GAY, BISEXUAL AND TRANSGENDER (LGBT) COMMUNITY IN DUBLIN LAST WEEKEND!!!

WE MUST SHOW OUR SOLIDARITY WITH THE LGBT COMMUNITY AND WORK TO STAMP THIS TYPE OF RACISM OUT OF IRISH SOCIETY. WE ARE CALLING ON YOU TO COME AND BE COUNTED.

FOR MORE INFORMATION PLEASE SEE http://www.queerid.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3458&whichpage=2
http://www.queerid.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3429&whichpage=1

OISIN O' REILLY
DEPUTY PRESIDENT/ CAMPAIGNS OFFICER
UNION OF SECONDARY STUDENTS

SPREAD THE WORD !!!

AARRRGH

Isn't a protest/rally/march a bit OTT? Do I get to have a rally whenever I get punched by a scumbag?

Boston

I too would like some information as to why this march is taking place and what it's aims are. Otherwise I will come to my own conclusions, which no doubt will be presented in an offensive and condescending manner. This will in turn result in me being flamed by Damien, and none of us really want that. So please, some discussion and a little less noise would be nice.

joe.

AARRRGH

Something which has always bothered me is the fact that gay people want to be treated as equals (which I agree with 100%) but then they do silly rallys like this which make them look like they're from another planet.

Straight people would not have a rally if something like this happened, so neither should gay people.

Yes, a couple of scumbags beating up a few gay people is terrible, but scumbags beat up straight people as well (very frequently.)

I am not anti-gay whatsoever. I just think this kind of "we're gay, let's have a rally" thing is not good for the gays-are-equal-to-straight-people movement.

(I hope I'm making sense.)

monkeyfudge

dublindude wrote:

Straight people would not have a rally if something like this happened, so neither should gay people.

Are straight people being attacked because of their sexual orientation?

AARRRGH

monkeyfudge wrote:

Are straight people being attacked because of their sexual orientation?

No, but straight people do get beaten up all the time too.

For example, if I got beaten up because I have long hair, I certainly wouldn't organise a rally for people who have long hair to protest against this. It would just make us seem different, when that is not what we want (and was the reason for the beating up in the first place.)

I'm really not trying to argue/piss anyone off here.

ixoy

I can somewhat see your point here dublindude but your long-haired example is somewhat off in that your orientation can be an important, integral, immutable part of yourself whereas your hair isn't. "Gay bashing" is a mark against a whole slew of people who have done nothing more offensive than who they are.

What might be of benefit though, and it'd take what you're saying into account, is to angle the whole thing as a rally against street violence, with a stronger emphasis on the woes suffered by the LGBT community. It as, as you say, something we all suffer but homphobic attacks seem to be stronger than any other group outside ethnicity.

monkeyfudge

Oh I agree with you on how a rally doesn't seem to be entirely necessary.

I was just trying to stress the point that there is a distinction between being mugged and beaten for your mobile phone and been beaten because of your sexual orientation.

A rally does seem to be a bit much for what seems like a fairly minor incident. I'd only see a point if there was a spate of attacks on members of the gay community.

Having a rally because of this incident does seem to show that a small group of scum bags can easily get to the entire community.

Oh... and I think 'racism' is an odd choice of wording there.

Boston

Just because straight people wouldn't do this, doesn't mean they shouldn't. The condition of our streets is a pure disgrace and not enough is said about it. That said, an attack like this is an attack on the entire community, is a place where it's ment to feel it's safest, outside a gay venue. You can't compare it to an individual being attacked. However I'm not convinced this isn't a load of bull****. Gay men have been murdered on the streets of dublin recently enough (one - two years) yet i don't recall much mention.

Who in the USI is backing this btw?

damien

LiouVille wrote:

I too would like some information as to why this march is taking place and what it's aims are. Otherwise I will come to my own conclusions, which no doubt will be presented in an offensive and condescending manner. This will in turn result in me being flamed by Damien, and none of us really want that. So please, some discussion and a little less noise would be nice.

joe.

Oh the UST!

Stark

I can see where dublindude and Liouville are coming from definitely. Scumbag attacks are common as muck and you're as likely to get attacked for wearing blue runners as you are for being gay. A rally sounds excessive and I don't see the direct benefit from it. In a way it feels like we're letting the other side win as they don't give a **** about us "showing solidarity" or whatever you might call it, they'll just see that they've gotten a rise from us.

segadreamcast

[QUOTE=RaghallaighLESBEEN, [/QUOTE]

...wtf's a lesbeen?

Incidentally, I think this is a bit too 'reactionary' to be honest - it was a beating, common as muck, everyday, average beating. Would it not be better to take more positive approaches (E.g. self defence classes, other awareness campaigns) as opposed to yet another gay march?

Hmm_Messiah

If people are doing more than they did in the past is that not a good thing?

others have identified the difference and the similarities between this incident and others on "straight" people.

Even if entirely similar what is the problem in demostrating your abhorrence of injustice?

It's an attractive human trait to gather and support the good in the face of the bad: the sisters up North when the IRA allowed their brothers killer go unchecked; campaigns against drug-users etc etc

A protest would fillfill one need: "to protest". I would of seen more important needs, and maybe different approaches to fullfilling them. Again i find the term gay bashing somehow desensitisng what happens, people's lives are endangered because of their sexuality.

I would imagine though that experts would say the reason for the voilence is secondary, these people's prejudice are not that terribly sophisticated, indeed i wonder if some really have any biase and this is just a "recreational outlet".

oops a point! I applaud the people willing to "do something" and there might be some benefit in making the incident more public .

Boston

I'll be honest here, I think someone just wants to make a name for themselves out of this. It wasn't even a beating, it was a flash attack, (one punch each by all accounts) on several people. It's stinks of "someone has to be to blame" mentality. It's been several hours since it was posted, yet no one has come in here and told me what this is ment to achieve. Higher awareness that you might get the **** kicked out of you outside the george? If you don't know that already then you're an idiot. I feel bad for the people involved, I really do. I've had my run in's with the skangers of the Dublin, so I know how they feel.

I always question whether organisations like the USS and Belong to should be involved in such events. Given that belong to is a support group, one of the few for kids, not a political campaign tool. And the uss , instead of following the old "lets campaign and bang our heads against a brick wall approach" resources should be in the schools and class rooms where other lgbt organisations cannot gain access. How many lgbt students get there nose split open in the school yard every week? Far more then outside the George I bet.

Hmm, the problem is that this appears to be a nee jerk reaction, with little thought.

MicraBoy

Deplorable as the incident was I also think this rally is a bit reactionary.

For one thing the description of the attack sounds very random, as if someone just started laying into people. If this was an organised group attacking people, a rally might be effective, but not against some random scumbag who will probably become a hero for homophobes everywhere. He'll prob love the publicity, and won't do his reputation any harm. Also what about the dude who got put in a coma recently enough. Not a hint of a protest being organised after that incident, a far worse one from what I can tell.

Secondly AFAIK this protest is going to the Four Courts because the suspect is having a hearing that day. Personally I am very uncomfortable with mobs turning up outside courts, when someone has not been convicted of any thing (yet).

I'm not totally opposed to this, but it doesn't sit right with me.

Stark

Turning up at the Four Courts would be a very bad idea. Not sure if this applies specifically to Irish law, but I'd imagine a mob outside a court room would be more likely to swing the verdict to "innocent" as it would be seen as interfering with the suspect's right to a fair trial.

Hmm_Messiah, your argument could equally well apply to me deciding to hold a protest because it rained on me yesterday in town. Yes it rained on the straight people as well, but as an LGB person, I'm generally more disciminated against in other matters. Should you applaud me in "doing something" or would it just be me being a whiny little **** with a persecution complex?

This protest reminds me of the state of this LGB forum about 2 years ago when every second thread complained about some perceived slight against the poster for being gay. "A bouncer asked me for ID in the club the other day, I think he was discriminating against me for being gay" etc. **** happens. A protest will do absolutely nothing to stop people from getting punched by skangers on the street. In fact, as MicraBoy said, it will probably only bolster that particular skanger's reputation within his community and increase the likelihood of future attacks.

Boston

MicraBoy wrote:

Secondly AFAIK this protest is going to the Four Courts because the suspect is having a hearing that day. Personally I am very uncomfortable with mobs turning up outside courts, when someone has not been convicted of any thing (yet).

I'm not totally opposed to this, but it doesn't sit right with me.

I wasn't aware of that. Fuk this for a lark then. It's a clear attempt at intimidation, and what ever your reasons I can't agree with that. What's the idea? Justice won't be done unless you go down there and make a nuisance

Hmm_Messiah

Stark
I didn't realise I was making an argument as it happens.
And I don't get your comparison, with the rain shower. I recognised the similarities to this event to anything that might happen straight folk, maybe I was unclear.

I would applaud you in "doing something" because I was thinking of the thread sometime back when a guy was beaten badly and only found the next morning. In comparison to the nothing I saw then, I applaud any-one who did more than mutter about injustice or...post a thread.

I think over all its a bad idea, I thought I said that, I was more responding to individual things people had said.

Marching on the Four Courts is a crazy idea.

In short, like I said

A protest would fillfill one need: "to protest". I would of seen more important needs, and maybe different approaches to fullfilling them.

And I wonder about some one proclaiming the event with the word Lesbeen (please don't say I am criticising some ones spelling, I tutor literacy, the word heads the forum...) kinda sloppy

Annasopra

hmmm.....

Time to come in and defend what some of you see as wrong (and I can see where you are coming from but will disagree with most of what people are saying). First of all one individual decided off his own back to do something about this - I applaud that person for taking action rather than moaning. Some of you say that nothing was done after the guy who ended up in a coma - that is clearly untrue - there were one or 2 vigils - lots of complaints to the media by Joe Costello TD and a response from the gardai of publicising their liaison officers etc.. Some of you say there is no spate of violence yet talk about other events happening. (such as the murders, guy in coma) perhaps this reaction is building from all these incidents and some people are saying enough is enough - Also the Johnny group recently undertook a hate crime survey and perhaps we should all wait for the results (due out next month) before saying there is lots of incidents or there is no incidents etc. Some of you suggest that straight people get beaten up too - no-one is saying that they don't the point is gay people are TARGETED. some of you criticise groups like Belong2 and the USS and the USI for involving themselves, it is my understanding that individuals within those groups called for the groups to be involved and by getting involved in something like this does not take away from their primary objectives as organisations.

This plan may not be the wisest and may be a rash decision but overall I would support it and applaud those involved for doing something

Overall

Boston

Johnnymcg wrote:

h some of you criticise groups like Belong2 and the USS and the USI for involving themselves, it is my understanding that individuals within those groups called for the groups to be involved and by getting involved in something like this does not take away from their primary objectives as organisations.

My personal opinion is that organisations such as belong too should not be involved directly with protest marches or campaigns. That to do so would be to detract from it's main aims. It may result in situations where people do not seak help because they do not want to be involved in rally's and pride marches and all the rest which require a certain level and type of confidence . These situations arise when an organisation become know more for what it's protesting and trying to get "someone else" to do something, then actually doing something themselves.

The USS from my experience, and nothing to date has contradicted this, is an inempt organisation, totally defunct. Why their involved is beyond me, I suspect someone will be tacking this onto their lgb Cv in years to come.

This really smacks of the type of stuff I hate about LGBT politics. Most people here agree that going down to the fort courts is a fairly misguided idea, yet it still garnishes support. Better to run around in circles then accept that, in this instance, there really is nothing you can do.

Hmm_Messiah

Johnnymcq

Your whole post came across as condescending. To me.

Leaving that aside, your arguments are far from compelling. You don't even attempt to tackle what it is people have a problem with , and then you end by saying :

This plan may not be the wisest and may be a rash decision but overall I would support it and applaud those involved for doing something

You are happy to support something you consider possibly unwise and rash ? I would worry if you are ever in a position where somethign is being proposed and you have a "vote".


And I agree 100% with Liouville on how inappropriate it is for a Group like Belong To to participate, and for the very reasons Liouville cited. That itself is somethign that might be worth protesting to that organisation.

Annasopra

I apologise if my post seemed condescending - I was trying to address some of the issues raised - I don't fully understand why you thought so and would like if possible you to explain

Most people here agree that going down to the fort courts is a fairly misguided idea, yet it still garnishes support. Better to run around in circles then accept that, in this instance, there really is nothing you can do.

People here on boards agree that it's a misguided idea that does not mean everybody does. There seems to be lots of support on queerid and angrypotato. I think that in this instance people are just so angry that they feel they want to do something, anything.

I can't speak for belong2 but I think it is their prerogative to get involved if they want

Boston

Johnnymcg wrote:

People here on boards agree that it's a misguided idea that does not mean everybody does. There seems to be lots of support on queerid and angrypotato. I think that in this instance people are just so angry that they feel they want to do something, anything.

As I was saying to Stark;

"It's a stupid idea", "But it's the right type of stupid idea" isn't enough.

I can't speak for belong2 but I think it is their prerogative to get involved if they want

Belong2 is one of the few lbgt organisation which has made a real and substantial difference in the last number of years. While this one event will probably not alter peoples perception of the organisation, where does it end. Maybe I'm blowing it out of proportion. It's just I often hear people talk about Trinity LGBT and how they would never join because of how political and militant it is perceived to be, which does a great dis-service to both themselves and the society. As I understand it, belong too is ment to be a safe and casual environment for kids, some very impressionable kids at that. I don't think it's appropriate.

Hmm_Messiah

It was the style not the content (I think), did't imagine you intended to be condescending

people are just so angry that they feel they want to do something, anything.

People angry/frustrated so they want to do "something/anything" could be the explanation of lynchings, mob behaviour, etc etc.

Could even be used as the motivation for beating some one up !

Frustration/anger is understood, but doesn't excuse doing something really stupid and unhelpful.

No one suggested you spoke for Belong To but you did suggest you saw no conflict with thier primary aims, thats what we (me/Liouville) disagree with.

The reality is this protest will change NOTHING other that perversely possibly make a few people feel good about how they "involved" themselves in noble deeds.

Boston

One more point, The lads say they have USI support, Yet can't/won't tell me who in the USI is supporting this. Now I might be wrong, but afaik the thread starter is charlie, the USI LGBTRO, who would seem to be hearing about the rally second hand. What the craic lads. Who in the USS besides this oisin chappy is supporting this? Who in Johnny? Who in Belongto? Can these people speak for their repsective organisations?

Annasopra

OK hmmm I can see how some of the language that I used could have been unclear in it’s intent.

I still do not see conflict between belong2s primary aims and getting involved in this. I understand one of their members was a witness and that they said they would get involved after many calls from their members.

Will this achieve anything – it will highlight hate crimes, highlight the anger over these, demonstrate that gay people are not prepared to accept this, all this talk appears already to have strengthened the relationships with the Garda liaison officers.

Liouville I don’t know who exactly in USI or USS or belong2 is supporting this but I know that all the Johnny members are.