Gay Bashing Protest

Boston

Well Lets hope that happens. Cause it would be very damaging if this went wrong, and a load of very anrgy people started acting like tossers down at the four courts under the belong2 banner. Very damaging and unfortunity indeed. Thats the flip side, and I think it's something you're not considering.

newgrange

It strikes me as a bit politically naive, and although I applaud anyone for trying to do something, sometimes hasty 'kill Frankenstein' reactions are not the most effective in the long run.

Have the organisers organised marches before?
How is the march to be stewarded?
Have the guards been informed of the intention to march?
Do they have people to 'deal' with the unsavoury rent a crowd elements (and we all know who they are so no need to name them) that show up at everything and cause trouble?

Boston

newgrange wrote:

Have the organisers organised marches before?
How is the march to be stewarded?
Have the guards been informed of the intention to march?
Do they have people to 'deal' with the unsavoury rent a crowd elements (and we all know who they are so no need to name them) that show up at everything and cause trouble?

Very good points, especially the last. Most of "Protests" I've been to have been hi-jacked in some way or another by some thing else.

BeLonG To Youth

Hi All,

It's really good to hear that people think highly of BeLonG To, and because of this are concerned that our participation in this march will damage the project's reputation. That's really appreciated.

Just to clarify why we have decided to get behind this march:
One of our members was attacked outside the George on Sat, and as a result many other members have wanted to take some kind of stand against this and other violence against LGBT people. Daniel and Conor from Johnny then proposed this demonstration - which for us allows young people to express their upset and frustration at the situation (remembering that Sat's incident is one of a substantial number over the past year)

BeLonG To's primary aim is indeed to provide supports for LGBT young people to allow them to safely engage with confidence building, personal development, peer support and making friends. We are not a political group as such, something which does - as has been pointed out, make us different to college societies or student movements.

We have always been conscious that 'political activism' can be off-putting for some young people and have been cautious about overtly getting involved in it for that reason. However, we are also an organisation which is driven by the wishes of its members who now want to get involved in this protest. (We also recently demonstrated against the murder of two gay teenagers by the Iranian government for the same reason)

We are not changing our primary aims by participating on Mon - we are doing it to support our member who was attacked and to allow LGBT young people a space where they can confidently take a stand against the injustice of being intimated and attacked because of ones sexual identity.

We know that activism and political demonstration are not everyone's cup of tea and we totally respect that, but i this case our members want to do this and myself (Michael) and Almha (our other youth worker) will support them in it.

We will also continue to provide high quality, safe and imaginative groups, programmes and supports to an ever increasing number of young people as usual

I won't be able to respond to comments on this forum over the weekend but if anyone has an questions about BeLonG To you can call us on 01-8734184 or email belongto@eircom.net

Thanks a mill again for all the support we receive

Yours,
Michael
BeLonG To Youth Project
105 Capel St
Dublin 1
P: 01-8734184; W: www.belongto.org

Enigma365

Isn't a protest/rally/march a bit OTT? Do I get to have a rally whenever I get punched by a scumbag?

I kinda take your point, but after thinking about it, I don't agree with you.

If this same incident had happened to five or six Nigerian refugees outside a mosque in Dublin, I can't help feeling it would be a headline on RTE news.

Boston

And if they where all blind orphans at sunday school it would be headline accross the universe. Argue something on it's own merits, not this "That other minority gets more petty then my minority" stuff. meh.

swiss

I don't quite know what to make of all this.

To a certain extent, what I'm wondering is whether there is a substantive difference between a situation in which a few scumbags decide to punch a group of people because they're gay, or a situation where they decide to punch a group of people because they're walking down the street.

Now, we know that this attack on Saturday was targeted at gay people, and that's abhorrent. The idea of a protest against these sort of attacks isn't necessarily a bad idea, it's aims are laudable and it is important to highlight injustices against the gay community. However, I don't think this is the impression people are going to get. I think they're going to hear that theres a protest going on because a few gay people got punched outside a niteclub, realise that the same thing happens to everyone whether there is a reason for it or not and conclude that gay people are milking this to further their own agenda of victimisation. After all, protesting against scumbags who engage in anti social behaviour can seem a little like protesting against Lions because they kill other animals. It's in the very nature of the beast.

I know that organisations like Belongto have gotten involved because their own membership were involved and it is important for them to show solidarity with these individuals. Again, I think that's honorable and laudable, but I also think that what Liouville said about politicising a relatively casual LGBT organisation and the inherent dangers therein is accurate. It can also blur the primary aims of the organisation, whether this is intentional or not.

You probably think I'm against this protest/rally, and that isn't really the case either. Violence and thuggery is an important societal issue, and it is important to take a stand against it in order to get it recognised as such so that something more substantive can be done about it. Casting this protest as gay only however, does it a disservice IMO because it - perhaps unfairly - polarises it as an issue that only galvanises support within that community when a gay person is the target.

What I would instead suggest is that this awful incident should be held as a microcosm of a much larger problem which is that of anti-social behaviour and violence against society. I think that this approach could galvanise more support with many other organisations, and would raise awareness with the issue in general. I also think that ultimately it would realise the aims of this planned protest/rally more effectively in trying to stop these kind of attacks.

Talliesin

I remember (and took a small part in) the campaign against Gardai inaction on homophobic violence around 10 years back. It was a good campaign and led to the appointment (on the spur of the moment in fact) of the first Garda LGB Liason Officer and relations between the Gardia and the community have steadily improved since.

In this case a crime was committed, a suspect has been arrested. I do not know of any overall escalation in the level of such crimes, or of any other reason why action is needed by the authorities or the wider Irish community.

As such I do not see why this protest will be productive.

ixoy

Surely of more note is the reaction of the Gardai on the scene? According to the Queer ID thread, one of the attending Gardai said something to the akin of "Let's get out of here as quickly as possible" and "You [the victims] probably deserved it". If this is their reaction to a homophobic attack, then that's surely of potentially more worthy note when people can't even rely on the people protecting them for fairness.

BuffyBot

As such I do not see why this protest will be productive.

I have to admit, I'm with Talliesin on this one. It seems to be making a overly large mountain out of a medium sized molehill.

Talliesin

ixoy wrote:

According to the Queer ID thread, one of the attending Gardai said something to the akin of "Let's get out of here as quickly as possible" and "You [the victims] probably deserved it".

This is something to protest about. Though best to start with a formal complaint by the witnesses against the gardai and then move on from there if necessary.

Boston

Talliesin wrote:

This is something to protest about. Though best to start with a formal complaint by the witnesses against the gardai and then move on from there if necessary.

Absolutely, orginally I thought this was what the protest was about. The toerag that was involved, will be punished, these gardi might not be. though i suspect a softly softly approach will achieve more then pissing off the gardi.

dermo88

You want my opinion of the Irish Gardai. Compared to their English counterparts, they are the keystone cops. I have had experience with them both, but in Ireland, its a major attitude problem, and serious impoliteness from the majority on day to day tasks.

Here in Birmingham, we feel as if our (gay) community is protected. Its not perfect, nowhere ever is, but compared to Dublin, I feel like I have to hide more in Dublin, whereas over here, its safe to be free.

Thats not to say its totally safe. It just feels that there are enough of us to kick the **** out of skangers when and if its required. That sounds worse than it actually is, but I have been involved in one lynching of a basher. I was the bait. Good fun too when we caught one.

danielbr

Hello everyone,

I have been reading some, but not all comments on this topic. As the person who has decided to act on the general feedback from other forums such as queerid etc and what people have suggested I decided that this rally/march/protest or whatever you want to calll it, IS in fact a good idea.

This is NOT a rally/march/protest because some people from the gay community received injuries after they were attacked on Dame Lane on Saturday night (might I also add that a further attack happened last night, Friday 31st, outside the George @ 2am), this protest is for a number of reasons,

Our main objective here is obviously to show the resiliance of the gay community to these attacks and show that we will take action (wether you agree this is right or not) to combat the situation, which by all accounts is not a big problem, but let me tell you it is a MUCH BIGGER problem than figures will show.

What we are also trying to achieve for the benefit of EVERYONE who frequents city centre, be it temple bar, dame street georges street, wherever, is better policing and HIGHER visibile policing to deter and prevent these attacks on, not only the gay community, but for everyone who is out to enjoy their night.

I hope this can clear up some things for some people who have doubts over what it is we are trying to achieve. I do apologise for the long delay in replying to this thread but I have been busy trying to organise and put the word out about it.

Daniel

Hmm_Messiah

dermo88 wrote:

You want my opinion of the Irish Gardai. Compared to their English counterparts, they are the keystone cops. I have had experience with them both, but in Ireland, its a major attitude problem...........

. That sounds worse than it actually is, but I have been involved in one lynching of a basher. I was the bait. Good fun too when we caught one.

Maybe just to balance things I might say any personal experience I've had of the gardai theywere perfect entlemen, understanding and flexible: in some situations being flexible enough to allow me resolve a situation, and on other occasions helping in a domestic situation beyond the limits of their responsibility.

Talking of voilence being good fun proably explains much of the motivation for this incident and others.

Annasopra

Thanks Daniel for coming and explaining a bit more - can't make it on Monday but well done

danielbr

thank you Johnnymcg. I don't want to repeat myself, but this is not just a gay march because people are subjected to being attacked because of their sexual orientation. This is a march to show that people are not going to be tolerating attacks in the city.

Just like to also point out there was 2 OTHER confirmed "gay-bashings" on Friday night too.

http://www.queerid.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3429&whichpage=7

Boston

sounds to me like you should be marching on the george, and getting the management ot protect it's clientele better.

danielbr

LiouVille wrote:

sounds to me like you should be marching on the george, and getting the management ot protect it's clientele better.

if it was happening inside the George I would say yes, but it is not. And the George staff were actually the ones who caught the attackers..... So the George are to be commended for going well above and beyond their call of duties to protect us...

Boston

danielbr wrote:

if it was happening inside the George I would say yes, but it is not. And the George staff were actually the ones who caught the attackers..... So the George are to be commended for going well above and beyond their call of duties to protect us...

Thats one way of reading it. Not mine of course...

danielbr

so would you like members of staff of the george to walk us all home after a night out?

Seriously, the George can only do so much and they have done more than enough as far as I can see.

Boston

danielbr wrote:

so would you like members of staff of the george to walk us all home after a night out?

Seriously, the George can only do so much and they have done more than enough as far as I can see.

So would you like the gardi to walk you home every night, take your punchs to the face like a man, god damn it. Not very productive being so blase` is it? As I understand it, never having been to the george, the area where hte first attack took place was a lane way beside the george where people regularly go to smoke, correct? Surely if these attacks are so common the george has a reponsibility to provide additional security, no?

danielbr

LiouVille wrote:

So would you like the gardi to walk you home every night, take your punchs to the face like a man, god damn it. Not very productive being so blase` is it? As I understand it, never having been to the george, the area where hte first attack took place was a lane way beside the george where people regularly go to smoke, correct? Surely if these attacks are so common the george has a reponsibility to provide additional security, no?

Excuse me... NOBODY should have to take a punch in the face. This is not a bloody boxing match. I am being productive about it. Why do think I am doing this.

If you have never been to the George, then don't comment on it until you know what you are talking about.

The lane is used by people who smoke I will agree, this attack happened at 3am when everyone was leaving the George. These attacks are not common outside the George itself. The security and the reaction of the security staff to these attacks is nothing short of brilliant. They do their job to the best of their ability.

I take you comments on board and I will put it to management of the G and see what they come back with.

Swimmy

I hope their will be also support for all the other groups in society who get bashed such as OAPs, handicapped, homeless etc...

I think this protest is silly quite frankly since it is not inclusive of all who are targets of bullies and scangers!

danielbr

Here is the article from Page 2 of the Sunday Tribune.....

GARDAI have this weekend placed unprecedented levels of personnel around the capital's leading gay bar following a series of brutal attacks on members of the gay community in Dublin.

In the most recent incident, up to 11 men and women were assaulted in an alley at the side of the George pub on George's Street around 3.40am last Sunday. Three men punched patrons exiting the pub in an unprovoked attack. One victim, Ciaran McKenna, who attempted to shield a female friend, received a punch to the face which broke his nose, causing him to lose three pints of blood. Doormen gave chase to the attackers and caught one, who was subsequently arrested and charged with assault. He will appear in court tomorrow morning.

An internal investigation is also underway into the garda response to the attacks. "A concern has been raised regarding the attitude of one of the gardai at the scene, who is, incidentally, not the garda investigating the attack, " said the force's gay liaison officer Finbarr Murphy.

A possible retaliation occurred on Friday night, when two men exiting The George assaulted two others on Dame Lane. No arrests were made, but those attacked were taken to hospital suffering from facial bruising. A garda spokesman said yesterday: "Maybe they [the attackers] were anti-heterosexual."

In an unprecedented move, Pearse Street garda station is providing extra gardai, both undercover and in uniform, around the area of The George this weekend.

Members of the gay community will march in Dublin tomorrow to protest at the recent attacks, beginning at The George at noon and continuing to the Four Courts.

Organiser Daniel Browne expects around 100 people to attend. "It's for us to take a stance and indicate that we're not going to take it anymore, " he said. Following the protest, Browne also hopes to organise a meeting with the superintendent of Pearse Street garda station to discuss the issue

danielbr

Swimmy wrote:

I hope their will be also support for all the other groups in society who get bashed such as OAPs, handicapped, homeless etc...

I think this protest is silly quite frankly since it is not inclusive of all who are targets of bullies and scangers!

This protest, if you have been following what I have been saying on other boards/forums, this is NOT JUST about gay bashings but attacks in general.

Obviously the fact that I am a gay guy who goes to the George quite often I am speaking from my personal opinion, but want to get the point across that attacks, like gay bashing, are happening at an alarming rate and we need to combat this, by better policing and harsher penalities on those who commit this acts of violence and hatred

dbnavan

Swimmy wrote:

I hope their will be also support for all the other groups in society who get bashed such as OAPs, handicapped, homeless etc...

I think this protest is silly quite frankly since it is not inclusive of all who are targets of bullies and scangers!

Well Swimmy.

I am disabled and I cant say I have ever been 'bashed', as far as I know my granny has never been 'bashed' for being old. Homeless people are often 'bashed' in fact there is stupid tv show about it. This is a major issue in dublin and it does need to be monitored more closely. If people are victims of hate crimes, no matter what it is, they deserve the protection of our Garda Siochana.

What would happen if a similar inncident happened outside a mosque or a school for the disabled? The country would be up in arms and it would be in every newspaper.

Finally on behalf of www.browneline.com I fully indorse this campaign and hope to cover it during the week on the site.

Dave

danielbr

thank you dbnavan,

it is nice to know that we have the support of other minority groups about this very topical and serious issue. it is also reassuring that you have understood what we are trying to achieve. This is not a "gay march" this is a march, being led by members of the gay community for the benefit and saftey of those who frequent the cities many bars and clubs.

I have seen your site many times before and I wish you every success with it. You are doing a fantastic thing with it. i would be honoured to help you in anyway i can.

If you need to contact me please mail me @ danielbr@eircom.net.

Swimmy

Nobody is doubting it is a serious issue but protesting is not going to either up the punishments for gay bashers or is it going to make the streets more safe for gay people. I think that is the point people are trying to make......

Annasopra

Swimmy wrote:

Nobody is doubting it is a serious issue but protesting is not going to either up the punishments for gay bashers or is it going to make the streets more safe for gay people. I think that is the point people are trying to make......

and have you got a constructive suggestion to make?