United Ireland within our lifetime

bonkey

bonkey wrote:

My apologies. CatholicIreland put it forward, but you still appear to have no issue with it, seeing as you've felt the need to object to other uses of the term, but not his/hers.

No need to apologise, just wanted to clarify my position.

To be honest, not sure I'd agree with anyone with the handle 'CatholicIreland'. Maybe he's being ironic, but otherwise not sure we'd agree on much...

Mighty_Mouse

Merging northern Ireland with the republic would be an economical disaster.

Personally I wouldnt consider it a factor on whether or not Ireland should fight for reunification but I never real appreciate the reasoning behind this argument. Larger economy, better infrastructure, 2nd biggest city in ireland etc. Also ireland are in Europe so we wouldn't be left to pick up the tab in terms of regional development. Introduce an Irish oriented education system and hey presto!.

The political reunification of Ireland, without the genocide of unionists, would almost certainly lead to a return to the days of violence and terrorism.

I dont see why it should. For 1 thing it can't happen unless they actually agree to it!! Which means it's up to political leadership to create an Ireland where unionist culture is apprecitated and given support to prosper.

Ideologies don't pay my rent, I can't give national pride to my landlord every week.

Im glad to see your eeking out a very fulfilling existance! :eek:

No they aren't, by recent surveys just over..................................

The majority of people on this Island vote for republican/nationalist parties. <<"Fianna Fail - the Republican Party" >>

catholicireland

To be honest, not sure I'd agree with anyone with the handle 'CatholicIreland'. Maybe he's being ironic, but otherwise not sure we'd agree on much...

Thats ok, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

The political reunification of Ireland, without the genocide of unionists, would almost certainly lead to a return to the days of violence and terrorism.

Well not much can be done if unionist scum want to kill and shoot people. It will happin some day, and I think we should start addressing the point now before that actually happins. It might save some lives.

No they aren't, by recent surveys just over half of people in the republic support a UI and we know from Nationalist/Unionist voting and the CAIN surveys that well less than 50% of Northerners support a UI hence the number of people in the 32 counties is probably somewhere between 40 and 50 percent. So the majority aren't

I would have to disagree. If the people in the Irish Republic were actually asked for real if they wanted the north back with a real vote then I would be certain that the vast majority of votes would be yes. Asking a small select group of people does not represent the whole counrty. I bet rural Cork for instance wasnt asked in that survey where over 55% of people asked want a United Ireland. See what I mean. Also, while a majority of people in the north would probably want to remain part of the uk, if you counted the 32 countys, i would say that you deffinately would have a yes vote for a united Ireland.

catholicireland

catholicireland wrote:

Thats ok, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

Hmm, still can't figure if you are extremely sincere, in which case I salute your integrity even if we mightn't sing off the same hymn sheet, or it's all an extremely subtle wind up, in which case I salute you anyway...

The Corinthian

catholicireland wrote:

I would have to disagree. If the people in the Irish Republic were actually asked for real if they wanted the north back with a real vote then I would be certain that the vast majority of votes would be yes. Asking a small select group of people does not represent the whole counrty. I bet rural Cork for instance wasnt asked in that survey where over 55% of people asked want a United Ireland. See what I mean. Also, while a majority of people in the north would probably want to remain part of the uk, if you counted the 32 countys, i would say that you deffinately would have a yes vote for a united Ireland.

This is entirely based upon supposition and opinion. You assume that the survey was carried out on "a small select group of people". You "bet rural Cork for instance wasnt (sic) asked in that survey". You claim that the 32 counties "deffinately (sic) would have a yes vote for a united Ireland".

Seriously, there are so many suppositions in what you've come out with that it is closer to invention than it is to opinion. If you want to convince people of your arguments you really must back them up with facts.

catholicireland

This is entirely based upon supposition and opinion.

No, its common knowledge. Just because i cannot give you a web-site link about some poll doesnt mean its not true. You are just being awkward and you know it.

Praetorian

I think a lot of people in the Repubic would not want a United Ireland for fear of it ruining our prosperity like West Germany did for East Germany. There would also be a high probabilty that the Unionists / Loyalists would declare war on newly enlarged state and there would be endless killings and bombings in the 32 counties. Apparently a lot of catholic (nationalists / republicans) up the north would also not vote for a UI because they benefit so much from the "brew" and British healthcare. It would probably take a large catholic majority for a UI to even become a possabilty. Probably something like 55-58%.

I personally would like to see a United Ireland in my lifetime, but I also believe there is a chance that it will be more hassle than it's worth.

Praetorian

catholicireland wrote:

88.4% of Irish people are Roman Catholic

That may be true but I reckon 88.4% of those people are non practicing non believers

Lies and damn statistics

Cronus333

catholicireland wrote:

Does anyone think its going to happin? I think that it will eventually happin at some time but im not sure yet if it will be in my lifetime. I really hope it does though.
At the moment the majority of people want to be part of the UK, but can anyone see this changing? Could you see the british goverment just give it back?
The day this small island is united under one rule will be a great day in the history of Ireland and for all real Irish people.

I don't want a united Ireland. Do that make me not Irish? according to you that means Im not from our fair Isle

The Corinthian

catholicireland wrote:

No, its common knowledge. Just because i cannot give you a web-site link about some poll doesnt mean its not true. You are just being awkward and you know it.

No, it's what you claim to be common knowledge. If it was common knowledge then we would, by definition, share it. As we do not share it, then it cannot be common knowledge, but the opinion of a subset of Society. Perhaps simply your own.

For example, that a skull symbol on a bottle means the contents are poisonous is common knowledge. We don't have to tell people that because we know that 99.99% of people already know this - hence common knowledge. Your assertion, however, is not because people here not only disagreed, but hadn't even heard of such a claim before.

The only way that it could still be common knowledge is if those disagreeing with you here were not part of the Society you claim the information is common knowledge to. So if you mean it is common knowledge in rural Cork, you may well be right, but if you mean Ireland, then you would have to claim that the posters here are both not Irish and not resident in Ireland - which frankly would be pretty delusional upon your part.

Tazz T

It's interesting to note how many people are citing how expensive it would be to include the North as part of the republic when it's less than the 20 years since that was the exact same issue for the North.

Over the past ten years the republican element in the North has increased much faster than the Unionist element, but that time has also eroded the sense of republicanism and I feel a lot of republicans would think twice now before entering as a United Ireland. The loss of free medical care as well as the stigma associated with the 'Rip off Republic' would make people think twice.

I'm from Derry originally and know this is how people feel, altho I'd love to see a United Ireland in my lifetime.

The North although much poorer than than the south at the moment is beginning to boom. Perhaps people will start thinking differently down here in the next ten years.

/I wonder would a United Ireland mean all the large Sainsbury's and DIY stores up North would have to close for being over the maximum size legislation?

And would the Vintners Association shut down all the JD Wetherspoons for selling beer at 'competitive' prices?

Mighty_Mouse

but that time has also eroded the sense of republicanism and I feel a lot of republicans would think twice now before entering as a United Ireland. The loss of free medical care as well as the stigma associated with the 'Rip off Republic' would make people think twice.

I think your getting catholism mixed up with republicanism!

bonkey

Mighty_Mouse wrote:

Which means it's up to political leadership to create an Ireland where unionist culture is apprecitated and given support to prosper.

One could say the exact same about the North - that there's no need for the Republicans to actually want to rejoin the republic - all they need is a Northern Ireland where their culture is appreciated and given the support to prosper.

You won't convince the unionists to join the republic any more than you'll convince the republicans that their ultimate goal is not to unite with the Republic.

IIRC, unification can only happen under the current arrangements if - amongst other conditions - both communities in the North seperately agree. In other words, a majority of Unionists would have to vote to leave the Union and join the Republic. Thats as counter-intuitive a concept as you get - by definition a unionists wants the Union over the Republic so why the flock would they vote otherwise? Indeed, to vote otherwise would make them a Republican!

If I'm wrong, or the rules change, and only a majority of the population of the North is required, then you can force the Unionists into the Republic. I'd wager they'd accept that as well as the Republicans in the North accepted their fate when partitioning was implemented.

jc

black_jack

Diorraing wrote:

At least Boru and the rest of them were IRISH and not oppressive Brits who decided they'd take peoples rights away from them on the grounds of race and religion. If my memory serves me correctly, Hugh O'Neill and Red Hugh O'Donnell managed to muster an All-Ireland force, Wolfe Tone established a certain All-Ireland body known as "The United Irishmen".

Who's membership could be measured in the thousands, not a grand unifying army.

It is true that a United Ireland wasn't always a concept, but a united Italy wasn't heard of until the start of last century, Germany until Bismark's reign (1870). Does that make the unity of these countries illegitimate? The concept of a UI is a lot older than the unity of most other countries.

Yeah. So. And. What. Are you honestly using Bismarck are justification for a united ireland. No one can rise up and give a compelling argument not based on the historical dreams of a Wolfe Tone or a Pearse.

super_furry

I certainly hope it doesn't come to pass in my lifetime. From a financial standpoint it would cripple the Republic and it's citizens, while sparking another inevitable wave of terrorism and bombings as the unionists would be certain to attack the south.

bonkey

bonkey wrote:

IIRC, unification can only happen under the current arrangements if - amongst other conditions - both communities in the North seperately agree. In other words, a majority of Unionists would have to vote to leave the Union and join the Republic.
jc

I could be wrong too but I think the set up you describe applies to the voting arrangement in the NI assembly but not to the conditions for a UI.

Iirc the GFA states that the GB parliament must legislate for unity if a referendum is passed by more than 50% ie if it has a simple majority.

However a referendum on the subject can only be held every 7 years-so if you hold one now and the result is A UK then the next one cant be untill 2012 and if you hold one then and its still a UK result , then the next one is in 2019 even if theres an election in 2013 that delivers say a 60% nationalist/republican vote.

Thats why some unionists want a border poll now , so as thye can put in train some certainty regarding probably another 21 years of definite non change.
Despite some of the opinions in this thread-With Nationalist/Republican voting figures circa only 3 or 4% off the Unionists figures and with the nationalist ones rising slowly whilst the unionist count is more stead-I can see why some unionists would be worried.

Diorraing

black_jack wrote:

Yeah. So. And. What. Are you honestly using Bismarck are justification for a united ireland. No one can rise up and give a compelling argument not based on the historical dreams of a Wolfe Tone or a Pearse.

Quite clearly i'm not using Bismark as a justification for a UI - that would undermine my argument. A UI would be far more legitimate than Bismark's unification of Germany which was achieved through a series of wars and against the will of all other lands apart from Prussia. I argue for a United Ireland when there is a nationalist majority and which shall not be attained through violence. The money put into unifying the country would be pretty worthwhile when you consider the millions the Government pissed away on E-voting, Bertie Bowl, Tribunals, The Spire etc.

Kilsally

I don`t think Northern Ireland is "poorer" than the Republic.
NI has free health care and the whilst wages are less, house prices are less and the cost of living is less.

The problem occurs in that if unified the current UK subsidy would need to be provided the Republic which is alot smaller population than the UK or have a huge drop in living standards in NI, although reform of the much over staffed and unefficient civil service due to direct rule would help this ALOT. There are WAY to may civil servants. Reform of local government is coming with the creation of 6 or 7 "super councils" as opposed to the current 18 or so....the NI Assembly could also be made much more streamlined with less MLA`s and less departments and the civil service overall should be brought into line with the UK as the NI civil service is still modelled on the old system and has not had the reform of the mainland civil service.

bonkey

Diorraing wrote:

What is the point of a UI? Well, what was the point of gaining independance from the Brits in the first place - please answer that all you UI sceptics. It wasn't gained because we'd be better off financially, it was gained because the Irish people are a proud race who would never lie down to oppression from any other country.

And by this logic, unless the people of NI are still being oppressed, and their country still being run in the manner of Ireland-pre-partition (i.e. as a money-generator for England), then there is no remaining reason to seek independance.

Unless, of course, you see being ruled by the people you don't wish to be ruled by as oppression in itself. If you do, then you are suggesting that we simply change the oppression of the Republicans in the North for the oppression of the Unionists.

jc

LordSutch

From a Unionists point of view a United ireland is Pie in the Sky for several reasons, and its up to us in the South to make it look more interesting for them to leave the UK and join us, but at this moment in time whats the incentive for them to leave the UK?: Firstly they have the NHS which isnt perfect but it does mean a "Free" trip to their Doctor/ Dentist (can we better that)? they are also British which means that they do not identify with our Green/White/Orange version of Irishness (Can we take their Britishness away from them)? and what about their seperate History to ours, ie: The Second World War (Can we pretend that we supported them against the Nazi's)?
The more you look into the possability of a United Ireland the more you realise that its only Irish Nationalists that want it - Unionists/ Loyalists certainly dont, and as for Westminster and the people of Britain they dont want the North either! so it looks like they will remain in the UK until the Britishness is bread-out of them which might or might not happen within the next Fifty years?

ChipNI

First of all lets look at what we are dealing with here.

1) Questions of nationality can and should NEVER be questions of economics.
2) The fight for Home Rule, the establishment of the Irish Free State and, eventually in the 1930's, the Irish Republic, were all done in the knowledge of the economic blow that it would have upon Ireland as a whole (That was the main reason that Unionism came into being in the first place)
3) The fight against British Rule was not a fight for only the 26 counties that now make up the official Republic of Ireland, but for all of Ireland
4) The Good Friday Agreement did not remove the Republic's claim to the north, merely taking it out of the exact wording of the constitution and saying that if reunification were to take place it would be by consenus of the people in the north.
5) Just because we in the north have been under occupation for 80 years longer than our brothers in the south does not legitimise the occupation of our land by foriegn powers. It seems to me that the fight for an Independant Ireland is still ongoing, and that the people whose actions brought freedom to the 26 counties could see some of these comments they would be turning in their graves.

As someone from the occupied 6 counties, I can say with great certainty that the question of Nationality isn't one of economics, because as has already been pointed out, we in the North stand to loose from a united Ireland as well (eg the NHS). but that doesn't ultimately matter. What matters is that there are still people in the North and in the South who care about more than just money, but want to see all Irish people free to govern their own affairs.

The question then, as this thread's title suggests, is not WILL it happen, but WHEN.

darkman2

murphaph wrote:

Because in the real world that's how it is.


Is that because they would fail miserably in that cost/benefit analysis though?


Name the last time Ireland was a single political entity. (Hint-it was under british rule). Now, name the time before that......hmmm, King this and tribe leader that.....Some people think it was for a brief period in the 11th century, but nobody can say for certain. Essentially this island has always been divided politically so reunification just doesn't come into it.

See your demonstrating more of your unionist credentials there murphaph;)

A UI hmmmmmm Well here is the problem, in a UI unionists would want to be represented. Only problem is this country will never join the farcical 'commonwealth'. The only thing common about it is the majority of its members are poverty stricken backwaters. Not a club we'd want association with.

Another fundamental is that this is a soveriegn nation something unionist ideology dosnt agree with. So in a sense they'd have no choice but to give up their identity anyway. UI sure why not? As long as its on our terms of course and we can handle the troublesome part of the norths population.

darkman2

ChipNI wrote:

First of all lets look at what we are dealing with here.

1) Questions of nationality can and should NEVER be questions of economics.
2) The fight for Home Rule, the establishment of the Irish Free State and, eventually in the 1930's, the Irish Republic, were all done in the knowledge of the economic blow that it would have upon Ireland as a whole (That was the main reason that Unionism came into being in the first place)
3) The fight against British Rule was not a fight for only the 26 counties that now make up the official Republic of Ireland, but for all of Ireland
4) The Good Friday Agreement did not remove the Republic's claim to the north, merely taking it out of the exact wording of the constitution and saying that if reunification were to take place it would be by consenus of the people in the north.
5) Just because we in the north have been under occupation for 80 years longer than our brothers in the south does not legitimise the occupation of our land by foriegn powers. It seems to me that the fight for an Independant Ireland is still ongoing, and that the people whose actions brought freedom to the 26 counties could see some of these comments they would be turning in their graves.

As someone from the occupied 6 counties, I can say with great certainty that the question of Nationality isn't one of economics, because as has already been pointed out, we in the North stand to loose from a united Ireland as well (eg the NHS). but that doesn't ultimately matter. What matters is that there are still people in the North and in the South who care about more than just money, but want to see all Irish people free to govern their own affairs.

The question then, as this thread's title suggests, is not WILL it happen, but WHEN.

Eh you know we do have a health service:o

ChipNI

ChipNI wrote:

4) The Good Friday Agreement did not remove the Republic's claim to the north, merely taking it out of the exact wording of the constitution and saying that if reunification were to take place it would be by consenus of the people in the north.

The constitutional claim that the laws of the Dáil should apply to the whole island was removed.

5) Just because we in the north have been under occupation for 80 years longer than our brothers in the south does not legitimise the occupation of our land by foriegn powers. It seems to me that the fight for an Independant Ireland is still ongoing, and that the people whose actions brought freedom to the 26 counties could see some of these comments they would be turning in their graves.

The democratic fight is, by some,yes.I doubt theres too many worrying about people turning in their graves though.I'm sure Arch Bishop McQuaid would be turning in his, if he saw the carry on in clubs and pubs around the land today if you want to use the analogy that we should be doing things today based on what was acceptable decades ago.
People move on as does society.

As someone from the occupied 6 counties, I can say with great certainty that the question of Nationality isn't one of economics, because as has already been pointed out, we in the North stand to loose from a united Ireland as well (eg the NHS). but that doesn't ultimately matter.

The argument about money in this day and age where the EU is king and not the UK is a misnomer.A UI probably wouldnt cost Dublin a whole lot at all as ultimately it would have to be funded by Europe.

What matters is that there are still people in the North and in the South who care about more than just money, but want to see all Irish people free to govern their own affairs.

I'd disagree with you there.Rightly or Wrongly people do care about their pockets.

The question then, as this thread's title suggests, is not WILL it happen, but WHEN.

I've always thought it will happen.You'd want to be pretty blinkered to ignore the population and voting trends in NI which over the longer term suggest it will happen.

Now On a side issue its frowned upon in these parts to drag up old threads/discussions.

You should have started a new one.

Thread locked.