Eircom and the phantom contract..

Matt Simis

Something I have been wondering about... when you sign up to Eircom BB, do you usually have to sign a contract? If not, how is it legally binding?

About 10mths ago we got standard 512Kb Eircom DSL. About 3mths after that we upgraded to 3Mb. This was all done over the phone (with plenty of problems as the line officially fails the DSL test). We never signed anything or received anything more than an increase on the monthly bill. How exactly can they enforce the 12mth contract when a contract doesnt exist?

Ideally I would cancel both my Telephone line and DSL Connection if Metro is available in my area.


Matt

cgarvey

It would make for a good test case! I'm in the same boat. I was never made aware, as one of the early DSL customers, of any terms & conditions, and never signed anything. On the other hand, it is reasonable to expect the service be subject to some terms and conditions. I'd guess we sit somewhere in the middle. In an era gone by (but after I signed up) customers got letters with the username and a brief paragraph to explain that use of the service was subject to the terms and conditions (online). Dunno what happens now. I know my signature isn't on anything, and I've received no correspondance to tell me of any terms & conditions, so I'll be a witness if you take them to the Small Claims Court!

.cg

Sponge Bob

IIRC the use of the service constitutes acceptance of terms .

Your get out is that the 'terms' are buried on the eircom website , this is the linkable bit here/

http://www.eircom.ie/bveircom/images/bb_tcs.doc

and that isn those linkable terms there is a definition for Everything save for the 'Terms' themselves . The lack of definition in the 'Terms' of what the definitive 'Terms' are and where they are to be found is actionable . It is an unfair contract . Unfair contracts can be voided.

TERMS AND CONDITIONS

eircom agrees to make available to
the Customer the Facility
described below on the following
Terms and Conditions:
1.1 In this Agreement:
“ADSL Line” means an asymmetric
digital subscriber line.
"Agreement" means this
agreement between eircom and
the Customer for the provision and
where applicable for the
installation of the Facility.
"Rental" is the recurring charge
payable by the Customer to eircom
in respect of the Facility.
"Connection Charge" means the
once off non-recurring charge
payable by the Customer for
initial provision and where
applicable installation of the
Facility.
“Content” means data, information,
video, graphics, sound, music,
pictures, text, code, scripts,
photographs, software and any
other material (in whatever form)
which may be made available as
part of the Facility.
"Charges" means rental,
connection charge and any other
charge payable by the Customer to
eircom hereunder.
"Customer" means the person with
whom eircom makes has made or
is deemed to have made an
agreement for the provision to
such person of the facility and also
means a person to whom such
facility has been or is being
provided.
"eircom" means eircom Limited of
114 St. Stephen's Green West,
Dublin 2.
“eircom broadband” means the
Facility.
"Facility" means the provision of an
ADSL line at the Premises to
enable the customer to avail of
high speed Internet access at a
level selected by the Customer.
"Internet” means the global data
network comprising interconnected
networks using TCP/IP
(Transmission Control
Protocol/Internet Protocol).
“Initial Period” means six
calendar months from the RFS
date.
"Kit" means equipment comprising
of, inter alia, hardware and
software.
“Premises” means the location
where the Facility is provided.
"Ready for Service date"
(otherwise "RFS date") means the
date on which eircom establishes
the Facility for the Customer.
"Welcome Letter" means any letter
supplied to the Customer with the
Kit.

and that if there are other terms they are not defined and not linkable so that revisiting the site and viewing them is too onerous ....therefore unfair too

cgarvey

Yeah, like I say, it's reasonable to expect that it'd be subject to T&C, but I, for one, was never made aware of any terms. I don't think it's reasonable for me to have to go searching websites to see if any exist, and if they do what they are! So both sides can be argued, IMO.

.cg

Sponge Bob

But .....while the terms I linked seemingly attempt to define what a "customer" or "charges" or "welcome letter" is they do not define what "terms" themselves are or mean , do they ?

It is therefore 'reasonable' to assume that the terms do not apply to the terms and furthermore that there are no terms because said terms are not terms by reason of omission of definition .....everything else of note having been defined ....in the terms .........like!

No wonder eircom never show up in the Small Claims Court !!:)

Richard Dower

If you use the service you're under contract...end of!

dahamsta

Richard Dower wrote:

If you use the service you're under contract...end of!

Rubbish. If what the lads above say is true, no court in the land would uphold a contract that hasn't been presented to the consumer.

You're calling me "dumb" in another thread for not examining my bank statements with a microscope, yet you accept contracts without reading them? You're only kidding yourself matey.

Richard Dower

I read the full T&C way back when i first signed up, July 2003. I know and knew what i was getting into, i am refering to others who use the service without seeing a contract or singing something.

Thus those people have only themselves to blame, if they used the service then they have agreed to the T&C. If they were concerned about contracts then why did they install the modem and start downloading?

It makes no sense, the logcal thing to do would wait, make calls, confirm you're under contract and then use the service.

Richard Dower

The contract is presented in the form of making a call to Eircom, asking for broadband, sending the welcome pack out, installing the modem and using the internet.

That is your contract, there is no boardroom table with lawyers present or a pen and ink scenerio. In fact...BT had me sign a contract, when i initially signed up in July 2003 i was sent an application form, which i signed.

Eircom changed things and there is no need for signing papers when you're with Eircom.

dub45

I think bb users are extraordinarily casual when it comes to terms and conditions. It is amazing how often posts on here read something like does anyone know how long my contract is etc etc. On the other hands the ips certainly do not convince that they are upfront when it comes to terms and conditions. For instance why do all isps not automatically email new customers with a copy of the existing terms and conditions? It seems such a logical step to me.

I had a running battle for ages with UTV to get them to date their terms and conditions.

Certainly the whole area of T&C's needs tightening up in everyone's interest.

Matt Simis

dub45 wrote:

I think bb users are extraordinarily casual when it comes to terms and conditions. It is amazing how often posts on here read something like does anyone know how long my contract is etc etc. ...

Certainly the whole area of T&C's needs tightening up in everyone's interest.

Im aware of the T&Cs, my question was regarding lack of signed contracts and the legitimacy of "verbal agreements". Im the Eircom bill payer yet I never requested DSL nor asked them to upgrade to 3Mb, someone else in my house did. Obviously I knew about it, but the fact that I signed nothing and asked for nothing would logically void the terms.


Matt

Sponge Bob

dunno about that Matt but not making them findable on their website or posting you full hard copy on request would make the contract void. verbal contracts are contracts but systematically hiding t and c's makes them unfair ....hence void

gerrycollins

Richard Dower wrote:

Eircom changed things and there is no need for signing papers when you're with Eircom.

when i first enquired about bb i was told in a 3g shop that after the 3 free months if i kept it it was taken as i was keeping it and contracts would be signed etc but when contacting eircom directly they said there was no contract needed?

cgarvey

Richard Dower wrote:

If you use the service you're under contract...end of!

Mr Dower, come down off the horse, I'll get you a ladder. I can't be part of a contract without being made aware of it "end of". If eircom think I can, then I'm happy to go to court on that. I'm well aware of the Ts&Cs too, however that's not the issue here. The issue here is the lack of any contract, verbal or signed. I presume it's changed since, and that you now get some sort of contract/notification of T&C with the modem, but I don't know.