EU - Croatia

Culchie

With all the hoo hah about Turkey, the clearance for EU accession seems to have been ignored by the media.

I personally think it would be a great addition, it's a country that is already very European, and reminds me alot of Ireland once upon a time.

It's entry to the EU will do wonders for it's economy and people.

Any thoughts?

toiletduck

i feel the same. i welcome them into the EU

Maskhadov

Im so happy to hear that Croatia have started talks. I think its a fantastic country. Best of luck to it

When they hand up every war criminal then, and only then, should they be considered. Until then, because of their participation in the Bosnian conflict, and their refusal to hand up those who committed horrific atrocities against Muslims, they should remain on the outside, just like their partners in crime in Serbia.

But other then that it's a lovely country, particularly Dalmatia.

Culchie

Deleted User wrote:

When they hand up every war criminal then, and only then, should they be considered. Until then, because of their participation in the Bosnian conflict, and their refusal to hand up those who committed horrific atrocities against Muslims, they should remain on the outside, just like their partners in crime in Serbia.

But other then that it's a lovely country, particularly Dalmatia.

It is only Gotovina who is still at large, and apparently the Vatican are harbouring him in a monastery.

They met 355 of 356 conditions of entry, and now they have satisfied the last one which was to fully co-operate with ICTY, so they should be allowed to progress now.

Culchie

Culchie wrote:

It is only Gotovina who is still at large, and apparently the Vatican are harbouring him in a monastery

I understood that Gotovina is the most significant figure at large at wanted by del Ponte - although the Croat Prime Minister has said he is innocent - but that there are many others at large and the Croatian Courts has had a habit of acquitting them of wrongdoing. For example, forgive my ignorance and he may not be as notorious as Gotovina, but has Goran Hazdic been handed up in recent months?

Amnesty International believe that many of those responsible for human rights abuses remain free in Croatia, and the domestic Courts there acquit them on any charges related to the wars.

Calina

Culchie wrote:

It's entry to the EU will do wonders for it's economy and people.

But it has to be remembered that EU membership does not lead to an overnight success.

Culchie

Calina wrote:

But it has to be remembered that EU membership does not lead to an overnight success.

No it doesn't, but having to meet the entry requirements, economy measurements, interest rates etc.... will mean that a lot of decisions that have been put off for many years will now have to take place.

It will also now attract investment from EU companies, and help kick start their fledgling economy.

Culchie

Deleted User wrote:

I understood that Gotovina is the most significant figure at large at wanted by del Ponte - although the Croat Prime Minister has said he is innocent - but that there are many others at large and the Croatian Courts has had a habit of acquitting them of wrongdoing. For example, forgive my ignorance and he may not be as notorious as Gotovina, but has Goran Hazdic been handed up in recent months?

Amnesty International believe that many of those responsible for human rights abuses remain free in Croatia, and the domestic Courts there acquit them on any charges related to the wars.

If Amnesty International were the measurement stick, then just about every country in Western Europe and United States would have some case to answer. (Not a criticism, just an observation).

Gotovina is the last Croatian wanted by The Hague, and by all accounts by independent observers will be acquitted anyway. He is a hero to the Croatian people and accredited with saving their country from the Serbs, so it is a very very touchy subject over there.
The Catholic church protecting him adds credence to his hero status.

Croatia has proven their co-operation to the EU, so that's the last obstacle cleared for talks to re-commence.


Goran Hazdic is a Serb, so this would be an issue for Serbia & Montenegro to resolve, not Croatia.

Calina

Culchie wrote:

No it doesn't, but having to meet the entry requirements, economy measurements, interest rates etc.... will mean that a lot of decisions that have been put off for many years will now have to take place.

It will also now attract investment from EU companies, and help kick start their fledgling economy.

It still, however, took more than twenty years for the effect to kick in here, it hasn't to any great extent kicked in in Greece or Portugal yet and Spain is probably not showing the benefit either.

Don't get me wrong - I see exactly what you are saying. But realistically, so far, the country to most demonstrate the benefits of EU membership is Ireland, and the conditions in Ireland have not really been replicated by any other members. And a considerable amount of our inward investment was US based, not EU based.

Culchie

Calina wrote:

It still, however, took more than twenty years for the effect to kick in here, it hasn't to any great extent kicked in in Greece or Portugal yet and Spain is probably not showing the benefit either.

Don't get me wrong - I see exactly what you are saying. But realistically, so far, the country to most demonstrate the benefits of EU membership is Ireland, and the conditions in Ireland have not really been replicated by any other members. And a considerable amount of our inward investment was US based, not EU based.

Yup, can't argue with that.

However Greece and Portugal squandered their EU funds on day to day spending and addressing their budget deficit...Ireland put it into Capital Infrastructure (believe it or not ).

Croatia is a country on the bounce really after the war, they are far far more prosperous than the other Balkan states, and even current members such as Bulgaria and Poland. Their tourism infrastructure is already in place, and there is massive road investmenmt taking place at the moment, Zagreb-Split Mototrway completed, and Split-Dubrovnik motorway to be completed by 2008.

Political inertia will be their biggest challenge, too many of 'the old school' brigade who have had it so good for so long, vested interests and stifling competition.... too many 'local decisions', and brown envelopes etc....

To achieve EU entry criteria, it will mean tackling these issues and vested interests head on, which can only be good.

It's improving all the time, big changes in the last couple of years alone.

AndyWarhol

Deleted User wrote:

When they hand up every war criminal then, and only then, should they be considered. Until then, because of their participation in the Bosnian conflict, and their refusal to hand up those who committed horrific atrocities against Muslims, they should remain on the outside, just like their partners in crime in Serbia.

But other then that it's a lovely country, particularly Dalmatia.

Yes I agree. There is still a lot of diplomatic baggage that needs to be resolved before the country can be considered. If the people are willing to embrace the principles of the EU and its leaders make steps to address the past, I would welcome.

Culchie

AndyWarhol wrote:

Yes I agree. There is still a lot of diplomatic baggage that needs to be resolved before the country can be considered. If the people are willing to embrace the principles of the EU and its leaders make steps to address the past, I would welcome.

Such as ?

They met all 356 (I think), maybe it was 389 or whatever stipulations laid down by the EU and the ICTY.

What now? Backward somersaults whilst juggling 4 tennis balls at the same time?

What now needs to be done?

Culchie

Culchie wrote:

What now needs to be done?

Maybe nothing needs to be done - I bow to your wisdom on the war crimes issue, maybe they've done all they can in that regard. Maybe all it needs is time and space between the atrocities that were committed, which were after all only 10 years back, by both Serbia and Croatia and possible EU membership. But I still would have misgivings about letting them in. I like Croatia, I like the Croats, although as you point out they have a strange pride in the inexcusable - presumably like an Irishman in the 80s saying 'the IRA are terrible, but at least they're on our side'. But it's hard to go to a place like Mostar in Bosnia, see what both the Serbs and Croats did, see the graveyard beside the Neretva full of gravestones bearing a date in May 1995, see telegraph poles covered with posters of Muslims, including babies, who continue to go missing in Croat dominated Western Bosnia, and jump up and down about the prospect of entering into an economic and social union with either. I do take your point that Amnesty would give out about lots of countries, the horrors above could possibly describe parts of Iraq following the intervention of countries already in the EU like Britain, but the savagery and barbarity of the Balkan Conflict is something that I certainly wouldn't forget too quickly. That doesn't mean punishing them forever, for as well as being aggressors, both Croats and Serbs were also victims - not many of the anti-Serb Western media express disgust at what happened in Vukovar - just that I would preach caution.

Culchie

Deleted User wrote:

Maybe nothing needs to be done - I bow to your wisdom on the war crimes issue, maybe they've done all they can in that regard. Maybe all it needs is time and space between the atrocities that were committed, which were after all only 10 years back, by both Serbia and Croatia and possible EU membership. But I still would have misgivings about letting them in. I like Croatia, I like the Croats, although as you point out they have a strange pride in the inexcusable - presumably like an Irishman in the 80s saying 'the IRA are terrible, but at least they're on our side'. But it's hard to go to a place like Mostar in Bosnia, see what both the Serbs and Croats did, see the graveyard beside the Neretva full of gravestones bearing a date in May 1995, see telegraph poles covered with posters of Muslims, including babies, who continue to go missing in Croat dominated Western Bosnia, and jump up and down about the prospect of entering into an economic and social union with either. I do take your point that Amnesty would give out about lots of countries, the horrors above could possibly describe parts of Iraq following the intervention of countries already in the EU like Britain, but the savagery and barbarity of the Balkan Conflict is something that I certainly wouldn't forget too quickly. That doesn't mean punishing them forever, for as well as being aggressors, both Croats and Serbs were also victims - not many of the anti-Serb Western media express disgust at what happened in Vukovar - just that I would preach caution.

Good Post.

Time is exactly what is needed, and the hope of prosperity, and thankfully that looks like it may be possible.
I have been to Croatia several times, and Bosnia and Montenegro. They just need a break.

Cronus333

Give the Croats a braek. You don't see Hungary, Poland or Germany handing up the communists now do you.

Cronus333

Cronus333 wrote:

Give the Croats a braek. You don't see Hungary, Poland or Germany handing up the communists now do you.

In fairness, I don't remember the Commmunists invading a country with the intention of crushing Muslims and carving up that country between two stronger neighbours. Communism was perhaps a flawed ideology, perhaps it led to brutality and the rise of despots and suppressed rights, but I don't think it was a war crime...

Culchie

Deleted User wrote:

In fairness, I don't remember the Commmunists invading a country with the intention of crushing Muslims and carving up that country between two stronger neighbours. Communism was perhaps a flawed ideology, perhaps it led to brutality and the rise of despots and suppressed rights, but I don't think it was a war crime...

Hmmm, I think you need to do some research on the Balkans.

Croatia was an occupied country, controlled and repressed by the Serbs in Belgrade.

It was a war of Independence, something Ireland is not unfamiliar with.

Culchie

Culchie wrote:

Croatia was an occupied country, controlled and repressed by the Serbs in Belgrade.

Having been there and to Bosnia myself, I like to think I have some passing knowledge. But thanks for the reasearch recommendation - we could always do with broadening our horizons after all!

Yo may have misunderstood, the country to which I was referring was in fact Bosnia. The stronger neighbours I suggested were trying to carve it up between themselves were Serbia and Croatia.

thegent

i don’t think we would have been too happy to hand over michael collins back in the day.
Besides all that the croatian people like any people have no say in what actions their governments' take (american troops in shannon is an example) i know they should be punished for their actions in bosnia but the punishment the croats receive should come nowhere near the serbian punishment. the serbs still allow parties in government with policies of a 'greater serbia'(which has been a goal of the serbs for over 100yrs) which basically says wherever serbs live is serbia, reminds me of our honourable neighbours the english.
Anyway croatias dictator president tudjman is dead now so i don’t think there'll be any more dividing up of bosnia in the near future.

thegent

thegent wrote:

i don’t think we would have been too happy to hand over michael collins back in the day.

Hmmmmm, some might say that was a shame...

Either way, I take your point about punishing Croats for the sins of their leaders. And I do appreciate that the Serbs may have a lot more questions to answer than ths Croats. I just have misgivings about both when the wounds are still open in that region.

Zebra3

Why should Croatia be kept out of the EU because of what happened in Bosnia when countries like Britain are committing war crimes in Iraq?

Oh yeah, one rule for the big countries, another for the smaller ones. :rolleyes:

Anyway most Croats I've met are against Croatia joining the EU.

Culchie

Zebra3 wrote:

Why should Croatia be kept out of the EU because of what happened in Bosnia when countries like Britain are committing war crimes in Iraq?

Oh yeah, one rule for the big countries, another for the smaller ones. :rolleyes:

Anyway most Croats I've met are against Croatia joining the EU.

I'm back after my ban for calling Conor a **** !

I think since the Del Ponte decision to allow talks to progress, that the mood has changed.

With the EU playong hardball, the polls were showing only 45% support for EU (down from 85% 2002) ....however since they have been cleared to carry on talks, latest polls show 66% support now.

Zebra3

Zebra3 wrote:

Why should Croatia be kept out of the EU because of what happened in Bosnia when countries like Britain are committing war crimes in Iraq?

On the other hand, why are we so concerned about getting Catholic Croatia into the EU, yet noone seems as worried about Muslim Bosnia or Slav/Orthodox Serbia. It was a war after all, with two warring sides, and not just some attack on Croatia.

Cronus333

Deleted User wrote:

In fairness, I don't remember the Commmunists invading a country with the intention of crushing Muslims and carving up that country between two stronger neighbours. Communism was perhaps a flawed ideology, perhaps it led to brutality and the rise of despots and suppressed rights, but I don't think it was a war crime...

Didn't soviet Russia divide up Poland?

Edit:Sorry, Poland isn't muslim, scratch that.

thegent

I just have misgivings about both when the wounds are still open in that region.[/QUOTE]

I really don’t think there's any major bleeding in Croatia at least they just to want to get on with things now.

It was a strange thing that happened here I agree with the guy who said the UK should be the focus of the EU'S wrath because of its involvement in Iraq.

The UK also supported Serbia during the war claiming that it was a domestic conflict basically a civil war even though in 1973 it was written into the Yugoslavian constitution that each member state (country) could secede at any time. The Germans were the only country to support the emerging nations battling for freedom in the fmr. Yougoslavia.

thegent

thegent wrote:

The Germans were the only country to support the emerging nations battling for freedom in the fmr. Yougoslavia.

I can think of another more famous intervention by Germany in that area. I would be surprised if they didn't back Croatia, tbh - some could call it an historical link...

thegent

Conor, do u mean the 'independent state of Croatia' or something else?
if that’s it I know what u mean but u have to give the ole Croats some credit, they did have the first organised resistance movement in Europe during WW2.
the Brits and the French have historical links to the Serbs also.

Dzi

Deleted User wrote:

When they hand up every war criminal then, and only then, should they be considered. Until then, because of their participation in the Bosnian conflict, and their refusal to hand up those who committed horrific atrocities against Muslims, they should remain on the outside, just like their partners in crime in Serbia.

But other then that it's a lovely country, particularly Dalmatia.

Sorry, but I need o comment this.
As I can see You don't have idea what happened on this area. Yo usaid that we (Croats) participed in bosnian conlict. You may think we attacked bosnia. That isnt thrue.
1) Srbians attacked Slovenia (5 days war)
2) Srbians attacked Croatia (First Vukovar...)
3) Srbians attacked Bosnia (Croats and Muslims)
4) In some places Srbians and Muslims attacked Croats in Bosnia
5) Than Muslims and Croats where together
6) Muslims vs. Croats
7) Muslims and croats vs Srbians
(.........)
And finaly Muslims called croatia to help them (after Srebrenica, because Srbs where planning to repeat that with Bihac). Croats stoped another Srebrenica

And there is antoher thing that is very important. Bosnia and Hercegovinia is country of 3 nations. Croats, Srbs and Muslims. So if Croatia attacked Bosnia, than he has attacked its own people. Evry step Croatia has made was to defend its own people. That is oligatory of every country. Croatia has not done any war in Bosnia. Srbs attacked Bosnia and croatia. And finaly Muslims called Croatians to ellp them.

It is treu that there were crimes. Nobady say that war was clean. I dont know any war in history where wasn't crimes.
True is that Srbians have made crimes.
True is that muslims have made crimes
and true is that croats have made crimes

But it isn't true that croats have forced srbian civil people to move from croatia before action OLUJA. They have moved on Beograd comand.

And finaly Hag. Croatia is only country that has delivered everything they asked. And dont forget that Croatia is one who was attacked.
there is only one case opened. that is Gotovina. There isn't any fact that Gotovina is in Croatia. He is franc citizn too. And NATO has serched in some places in Bosnia. So mybe he isn't in Croatia. How Croatia can find man who ins't in Croatia


PS: If someone whants i can send him couple of films about war

The ironic thing is that any Serb I know says pretty much the same thing in reverse.

Did the Stari Most just fall down while all the Croats were being attacked?

The Corinthian

Once they return Istria and Fiume, I think they should be allowed join.