How to Derail a Topic with a Personal Dispute.

Sparks

FLAG wrote:

... I do not claim it was a test case ...
In any case your dirty swipe is way off line but no doubt you will have some further bull to add.

No, just to point out that in your letter to the Irish Shooters Digest there in August(?), you did claim it was a test case. And were soundly rebutted on that the next month's issue.

Sparks

FLAG wrote:

the ISC criteria for provision of Carding Grants are very clear with respect to qualification criteria

Indeed; and these criteria were up for review. As I said.

the quotes you made are inaccurate and were never made by me

That quote (there is just the one, go look again if you think I'm mistaken) is from the official, signed minutes of the NTSA. So please don't think I'm making this up. That's what's in the record as having been said by yourself, and not my record either, I'll point out.

I can assure you have always represented the sport and the individuals who tried to achieve grant aid fairly

Then why not support a change in the criteria that would result in a fairer system?

Nicholas achieved carding status on the basis of performance in pre defined competition, World and European Chamopinships, he achieved his carding on the basis of perfomance to the set criteria

Nicholas' grant and it's legitimacy was not a part of the question. In fact, I specifically stated I thought he (and anyone else who represents Ireland abroad) deserves support. But I will point out that the current indications are that because the NRPAI did not engage with the review of the criteria, that the ISC have reviewed them for us, leaving non-olympic shooters out in the cold and olympic shooters stuck with a suboptimal set of criteria and no doubt about to be blamed for the situation.

This is getting serious because you are now making serious allegations about things that were never said.

No, I've made no allegations. I've related what I was told; I've quoted minutes; I've given accurate background information; and I've asked questions. Now if you're feeling uncomfortable, I can well understand it; but you did offer to answer questions...

FLAG

No Mark, don't flatter yourself by thinking that you make me uncomfortable, your only effect is to irritate, as you do to so well to not only me but to so many other people also.

What is reported in minutes is not necessarily fact, as can happen, Had I said what was reported it would have been raised in the debrief after the meeting, I distinctly remember the meeting with the ISC and they clearly wanted to review the system, the points system proposed by the NTSA was not a runner as the proposal was too complicated, the proposal was presented and rejected by Shane Keane of the ISC and no one else, certainly not me. I note that the proposal was never presented at the most recent round of discussions on carding!

My record with the ISC speaks for itself, I travelled to Tullamore in 1995 to meet with representatives of Cospoir when people did not bother their arse to turn up at committee meetings. The SSAI relationship with ISC is sound after years of professional contact, funding will never be what we want but when I joined the NRPAI the Baton Twirling Association of Ireland were getting more money than the NRPAI, it changed, the High performance grants were never small from my recollection and the days were when the NRPAI were sharing £2500 among the affiliated associations while the NTSA were getting in excess of £30K from the Olympic Council, I never sought to decrease any funding to High performance sport but sought to increase funding to the recreational side and try and balance it with respect to realistic and realisable goals, contrary to what you may think I always strived to increase participation and not at the expense of any other association.

The more recent review of the carding grant (after I left the committee of the SSAI) was attended by representatives of the SSAI and the NTSA, as I understand the outcome was to degrade the recreational sports further in favour of the carding for high performance only, the ISC were determined to do this regardless of what proposals were presented.

The response to my letter of resignation as published in the Digest was to me disappointing, I though we were all in the same game on the same side, I used the word "exposed" because unlike the NARGC backed cases I was on my own and if my case had been lost then I would have bourn the costs. One can argue about who got past the post first, does it really matter, further my case specifically related to a 9mm (as Mark recoils in horror, making the sign of the cross) so that we would ensure that a .22 limit could not be slapped on. What more can I say.

Sparks

further my case specifically related to a 9mm (as Mark recoils in horror, making the sign of the cross)

Why do you think I have an aversion to fullbore pistols when ISSF pistols go up past 9mm in calibre?
My aversion, as everyone here knows, is to certain types of targets, not the firearms used on them.

when I joined the NRPAI the Baton Twirling Association of Ireland were getting more money than the NRPAI

At that time, weren't olympic sports funded through the OCI, not the Dept. of Sport? And wouldn't that mean that the total funding to shooting would have been in excess of 30k according to your figures, which means that the Baton Twirlers never had more money than us, it was just that they got more from one particular source than we did? And wouldn't it be true to say that in fact the total amount of money flowing into shooting since that point has gone downhill for rifle shooters, since we now get far less than £30,000 per annum (not counting the carding grants, which go directly to individual shooters and not the sport as a whole)?

Sparks

And if you're comfortable Declan, perhaps we can introduce some more topics?

On the NRPAI AGM last December, there are a multitude of questions, but let's look at the biggies;

1) The floor was given voting rights in direct contradiction to the NRPAI constitution. Why was this done without any prior notification whatsoever? edit: and why wasn't it mentioned in the minutes of the AGM?

2) Several very serious motions were put to the AGM without being posted on the Agenda for that AGM, changing the name, the structure and other details of the NRPAI. Now, from the minutes of the 2000 NRPAI AGM:

Ronan Power asked that a proposal be floored. Declan Keogh said that there was not a mechanism in place for this to be done. R. Power stated that this was standard practice for AGM's. D. Keogh said that hasty proposals were a bad idea, and under the Associations constitution, proposals must be sent in in advance of the AGM, and circulated. If this was not done, proposals cannot be considered.

Why did you then support the introduction of motions at the AGM this time round? Especially when they were this serious?

3) Why, in light of the blatent ignoring of voting rights, and the voting on motions which were not in the Agenda, would you support the AGM as being valid?

Sparks

And on the topic of the NRPAI, perhaps you can address the somewhat confusing topic of individual memberships of the NRPAI?

• Why does the NRPAI have individual members when it was not set up as anything but an umbrella group? Does it see itself as more?
• Why has the NRPAI sought to demand that clubs affiliate their members as individual NRPAI members over the repeated objections of at least one of those clubs on the grounds of personal security?
• What benefits would an NRPAI individual member get for their membership fee?

FLAG

Mark: Related to your questions about membership, this is all listed in the rules of the SSAI, can you not get it through your thick head that the NRPAI has been replaced by the SSAI.

Membership individual was incepted to allow those who had no club membership or facility to join the club to allow them belong, over the years several hundred individuals have joined as associate members and as such have been in some way associated and belong to a group. Many hundred’s of individuals have benefited by being part of the SSAI while not having access to clubs in their areas, clubs have been formed because of the contacts and I have had no objections to the system save the club you mentioned. One club objection however can hardly be a good reason for killing a good idea.

Club affiliation (registration actually) was offered on an annual basis to facilitate the keeping of accurate and up to date records that allowed queries from individuals to be passed to current contacts in the clubs, it also helped to keep the individual clubs informed.

Practical steps for practical reasons.

Ronan Power was not at the AGM in December from my recollection.

I was the PRO I did not control the meeting, there was a chairman there, I'd suggest that you relay your questions to the current committee.

stevenw

FLAG wrote:

Wow: Mark you never cease to amaze me with the absolute garbage that you write, now that you have made specific (obscure enough though) accusations about what I have done I cannot let it pass.

For the record I will confirm that I do have an issue with you personally because I think you are a total pratt (probably not alone in this) and you are doing no good for shooting sports.

Declan Keogh
FLAG

Strangely that's how I have always felt about you (probably not alone in this).

If you're definition of shooting sport is the proceess of masturbating whilst holding the largest, scariest, dirty-harryest handgun you can find, then yes Sparks is indeed unproductive for the cause. If, however, your definition coincides with that of the Olympic movement and involves trained and disciplined athletes contesting their skills in a mentally gruelling match, then no. Sparks has indeed done a great deal for the sport. He's the first person I know to generate positive publicity for it in Ireland, which he achieved by being active rather than reactive. He has also devoted a vast deal of his time to coaching young potential athletes in the Olympic disciplines. However, I can understand how these things don't matter to you, as they don't involve anything that you're likely to hear about in a Hollywood film.

Finally, one of his strengths is that he doesn't ignorantly threaten legal action everytime he drops his lolly.

FLAG

Now Mark me Lad, though I'd insult you by calling you lad because it insulted me earlier when you had the cheek to refer to me as a "lad"

A tiny tiny query for you, is it correct that you are no longer a committee member of the NTSA?

You were removed from the committee at an AGM by a majority vote of those present, a minor point but I though I would bring it up again and again.

Are you currently representing the views of the NTSA?

You are freely referring to minutes of NTSA meetings, indeed in recent post you actually posted extracts from them.

As an ex member of the committee I would expect that such minutes should no longer be in your possession and certainly should not be posted on a public web site without the express permission of the NTSA committee, do you have such permission?

A few minor points but perhaps you might clarify them ASAP before we go forward.

FLAG

Well StevenW

I hope you are both very happy together! You obviously do not know me, so I'll forgive the foul degrading language used which I understand is against the charter.

stevenw

FLAG wrote:

You obviously do not know me, so I'll....

Oh, you'd be surprised....

Celer et Audax

StevenW, is your view of non olympic discipline shooters shared by your fellow Air Rifle shooters?

Sparks

FLAG wrote:

Mark: Related to your questions about membership, this is all listed in the rules of the SSAI, can you not get it through your thick head that the NRPAI has been replaced by the SSAI.

In order to have replaced the NRPAI with the SSAI, you would have had to have held a valid AGM Declan. You didn't. Voting rights were not adhered to, significant motions were not listed on the AGM, and the entire thing was a complete shambles. Frankly, to count it as a valid AGM would be a serious disservice to whatever good the NRPAI ever did do.

Membership individual was incepted to allow those who had no club membership or facility to join the club to allow them belong, over the years several hundred individuals have joined as associate members and as such have been in some way associated and belong to a group.

And yet, I can't help but note, that this would be like joining Equestrian Ireland instead of joining one of it's affiliates who do the actual equestrian sport. The purpose of the NRPAI was to be, in effect, a single point of contact for the ISC. Nothing more. It is not and is prohibited by its own constitution from being a national governing body; and the ISC's own rules on NGBs mean that it wouldn't qualify as an NGB even if we wanted it to be one.
So the question of why join the NRPAI as an individual is still a puzzling one. Why join an administrative organisation, instead of an NGB like the NASRC or NSA?

Club affiliation (registration actually) was offered on an annual basis to facilitate the keeping of accurate and up to date records that allowed queries from individuals to be passed to current contacts in the clubs, it also helped to keep the individual clubs informed.

Why would the NRPAI require the clubs to pay for this?

Ronan Power was not at the AGM in December from my recollection.

I'm not sure if he was or not. But that quote from the AGM minutes was from the 2000 AGM.

I was the PRO I did not control the meeting

You were the PRO in 2000 as well Declan, I was there. Didn't stop you objecting then, so what stopped you objecting this December?

Sparks

FLAG wrote:

A tiny tiny query for you, is it correct that you are no longer a committee member of the NTSA?

Indeed.

Are you currently representing the views of the NTSA?

No, I'm not. I'm representing my views.

You are freely referring to minutes of NTSA meetings, indeed in recent post you actually posted extracts from them.

Indeed I am.

As an ex member of the committee I would expect that such minutes should no longer be in your possession

Copies of said minutes were distributed to all members of the committee electronically. No procedures of any kind for controlling them were ever used.

and certainly should not be posted on a public web site without the express permission of the NTSA committee, do you have such permission?

On what basis do you make that assertion Declan? It's completely inaccurate. Besides which, even if it were not incorrect, the NTSA committee does not have the legal right to gag anyone. And frankly, if you wanted to go down the legal road, you'd find that I haven't transgressed any law thus far.

A few minor points but perhaps you might clarify them ASAP before we go forward.

And now that they are clarified, shall we continue?

FLAG

Well StevenW, whether you know me or not is of no real interest to me, what I can say is that you clearly have no understanding of pistol shooting, I never run down any aspect of shooting sports because I believe in free choice and people are entitled to take part in any lawful sport that they wish to. Pistol shooting requires the same level of precision and fitness as any Olympic shooting sport, only differnece is that 90% of shooters participate in non Olympic shooting sports.

Your description of me is far from reality as I am more likely to be on a range instructing people in the safe use of firearms, more than 150 individuals have benefited from this course this year. I would love to have time on range with big hairy pistols but I have yet to come across one.

Typically there are individuals out there who think that here is nothing but their sport, and they take every opportunity to run down other aspect of the sport, this is exactly what happened in the UK with the 1998 ban, everyone though oh well it won't effect me, and they let their fellow shooters loose their lawfully held pistols, interestingly there is new legislation moving forward in the UK to restrict air-pistols and air-rifles, well StevenW with your attitude all that may be left to play with in the end, is what you accused me of having in one hand on a range (I don't think so), funny thing is that people who lower them selves to that level of abuse are usually thinking of the first thing that comes to mind, finished yet.........StevenW or is some other lad holding it for you................

Last point: man enough to identify ones self as at least you have the benefit of knowing me, it would be beneficial to know who you are. Great to hide behind an asumed name.

Sparks

Celer et Audax wrote:

StevenW, is your view of non olympic discipline shooters shared by your fellow Air Rifle shooters?

I would say that Steven's view of non-disciplined shooters is shared by all shooters. No-one likes the idea of a Walter Mitty with a firearm. But since you're trying to hint that Steven's elitist, I should point out that he's coached somewhere in the region of a thousand kids in the last four or five years, of which only a handful would ever have entered competition seriously, the rest simply shooting for recreation.

Sparks

FLAG wrote:

You obviously do not know me, so I'll forgive the foul degrading language used which I understand is against the charter.

If we start kicking people from this thread for breaking the charter rule (which isn't against foul language, by the way, but is against "flaming, trolling or personal abuse", you yourself will have to be kicked. And I don't want to do that, since I know precisely how you will portray it in every pub and clubhouse for the next five years, having encountered the results of such actions in the past.

FLAG

OK Mark, back to the point can you continue to make your allegations about what I did, last chance though, unless you compile them and list them I will no longer engage with you I do not have the time that you clearly have!

Lets get the bull out in the open ASAP, clearly you are clutching at straws and trying to apportion blame on me of all that you think is wrong with shooting sports.

Sparks

FLAG wrote:

what I can say is that you clearly have no understanding of pistol shooting

I never run down any aspect of shooting sports

Indeed? So, answer my first question to you so. Why did you write a formal public letter to the ISC undercutting the NTSA for no good reason?

because I believe in free choice and people are entitled to take part in any lawful sport that they wish to. Pistol shooting requires the same level of precision and fitness as any Olympic shooting sport, only differnece is that 90% of shooters participate in non Olympic shooting sports.

Excuse me there lad, but I think you'll find that one full third of the events in the Olympics are pistol events. And I think if you read what he posted instead of what you'd like to have seen posted, you'll find that Steven wasn't annoyed at non-olympic shooters, but at shooters who don't care where the round goes because they're only interested in the bang.

Your description of me is far from reality as I am more likely to be on a range instructing people in the safe use of firearms, more than 150 individuals have benefited from this course this year.

That sounds fairly low to be honest Declan. I'd be more used to getting through 3-400 people in a year. Incidentally, I've seen photos from your safety courses and I'd love to know who thought a safety instructor should put his head in front of the muzzle line with the back of his head to the trainee. I'd also love to know why that instructor would let someone fire fullbore pistols without hearing protection.

Typically there are individuals out there who think that here is nothing but their sport, and they take every opportunity to run down other aspect of the sport

As you just did with the carding grant?

interestingly there is new legislation moving forward in the UK to restrict air-pistols and air-rifles

As well as moves to restore all the lost pistols off the back of the London 2012 Olympics. So it would seem that the Olympic shooters aren't the elitist take-take-take types that you seem to constantly imply that they are...

FLAG

Off line Mark, you are meant to be accusing me of lots of things; I'm waiting for the list.

Now you are running down courses that I have run, perhaps somebody who has taken one might comment, on the content, integrity and competence of the courses, I am a qualified NRA Firearms Instructor, you are really sinking low now in slagging traceable courses.

I do not run safety courses, safety is an aspect of the course, you run 3-400 people through you course, what qualification do you have to do it?

Nobody fires pistol on my courses without safety glasses and hearing protection, please post the photo you refer to and I will gladly respond.

Sparks

FLAG wrote:

OK Mark, back to the point can you continue to make your allegations about what I did

Allegations? Declan, we've made no allegations here, merely asked questions. I would have thought you'd know the difference between the two, given your legal expertise.

last chance though, unless you compile them and list them I will no longer engage with you I do not have the time that you clearly have!

Declan are you going to answer them or do what you've done so far, which is to avoid the questions and simply make personal attacks that frankly, aren't doing much for anyone?

Lets get the bull out in the open ASAP, clearly you are clutching at straws and trying to apportion blame on me of all that you think is wrong with shooting sports.

At this point I should actually step back and be fair here. Declan is not responsible for every problem in the shooting sports community, there are several causes out there. It's just that you tend to be so arrogant about it Declan, doing things that frankly shouldn't be done without consultation, and then doing the entire righteous indignation act when called on it. That, and you shafted ISSF shooting on a number of occasions and still claim to support all shooting sports.

On that point, by the way (the "I never run down any aspect of shooting sports" claim), why did you, in front of my eyes at the NRPAI AGM a few years ago, dismiss the request from the Midlands Rifle Club to form a fullbore NGB within the framework of the NRPAI as being a bad idea because "we have too many bodies allready", at a time where there was an obvious need for such an NGB and no group interested in taking it on other than the MRC's group? And do you not feel that your actions were counter-productive, especially now that the MRC lads have had to go off and form an internationally-recognised NGB for fullbore shooting that isn't in the NRPAI?

And on other points (you'll forgive me for not having a prepared document listing all of these queries and having to list them in this somewhat unstructured fashion, I do hope);

• Why did you sign up the NRPAI to the American NRA without asking or informing any of the constituent bodies of the NRPAI for over 18 months?
• Why did you send a team of practical pistol shooters off to Tirol as an Irish National Team under the NRPAIs name when the NRPAI is not a National Governing Body, has no right to select National teams, had no procedures in place to fairly select such a team, ran no qualifying matches to select such a team and did not extend an open invitation to all shooters to try out for that team; and why did you do this without notifying the NRPAI chairman or presenting any information to an NRPAI committee meeting or getting the idea ratified by the NRPAI until after the event? Despite the negative implications that being linked to practical pistol shooting holds for the NTSA, an NRPAI affliate whose interests the NRPAI is at least meant not to damage?
• Why, despite repeated emails and requests, did you continually release press releases in the NRPAI's name which were at best factually inaccurate? (shall I post the emails where I pointed out these inaccuracies to you and asked you not to release such press releases?)
• Why did you never respond to a request from WTSC for contact details of disabled shooters looking to shoot in the National Air Rifle Championships?
• Can you tell us why for two years we were told that disabled shooters would be at said Championships but without being given information like how many there would be, what range equipment they would need, whether or not they needed special assistants for the match, etc, etc?
• Can you confirm that the Paralympic Council of Ireland list the NRPAI as the ISSF-recognised NGB for target shooting in Ireland and can you please explain where they'd get such an incorrect notion?
• Why did you resist the idea of the carding grants being reviewed at all when the ISC first mentioned the idea?
• How many silhouette shooters are you nominating for carding grants this year?
• How much money does FLAG have available to it to cover costs in the event of a case being awarded against it? Has it risen from the amount you quoted to me a year or so ago, which was about a quarter of what would be required (and which was then only promised by unnamed individuals, as opposed to actual money sitting in an account)?
• If you've retired from the committee of the NRPAI and thus are not even appointed to the committee of the NRPAI by people who are voted for by shooters; but are somehow nominated for the post removed from the ordinary members by several layers; how can you be in charge of one of the most risky activities in the NRPAI, which in the event of a loss, could result in the NRPAI incurring losses in the six-figure range?
• In the event of FLAG losing a case and thus incurring costs in that range, how much do the individual affiliate bodies have to pay and where does that money come from?
• Could you explain how stating that if you ever saw specific shooters in a meeting that you'd get up and leave the room rather than work with them, is a helpful attitude that promotes our sport?
• Why, at an NRPAI strategic meeting a few years ago, where the future of the sport was being decided upon (by a non-NGB!) was the Chairman of the NTSA informed by yourself that he had no right to attend the meeting?
• How would you characterise your relationship with the Minister for Justice and the Department of Justice in general?
• What are your plans for the rest of your term as the head of FLAG?
• What is the length of your term as head of FLAG?
• Will you be presenting a report on FLAG's activities, finances and so forth at the NRPAI AGM?
• Why was the agenda published for the last NRPAI AGM not the agenda actually followed, and will this also apply for the next AGM?
• What body ensures the NRPAI will adhere to the written rules it writes for itself?

I may well have missed one or two points there Declan, since I don't keep this sort of stuff in pre-prepared documents, but we've more than enough to be working with for the moment, wouldn't you say?

Sparks

FLAG wrote:

Off line Mark, you are meant to be accusing me of lots of things; I'm waiting for the list.

Didn't realise I was meant to be, Declan, I shall strive to do so forthwith!
And I realise the above list may be incomplete, but I trust it has sufficent points on it for you to work with?

Nobody fires pistol on my courses without safety glasses and hearing protection, please post the photo you refer to and I will gladly respond.

edit: The photos posted here have been removed following requests from the LRPC. The originals can be obtained through the LRPC.

Here the shooter is shooting with ear defenders; but they happen to be several inches above the shooter's ears. Not the position the manufacturer recommends. Also note that the instructors hands are in his pockets and thus not free to move quickly in case an inexperienced student should do something silly (which they would be on the course to learn not to do, no?). I wouldn't walk down a mountain with my hands in my pockets Declan; let alone teach a pistol course with them there...

edit: Photo removed

Here our shooter has ear defenders and is wearing them correctly; however the shooter's protective glasses are covering an area about four inches above the shooter's eyeballs. Again, not the recommended manufacturer's position for those.

edit: Photo removed

And here you can see the instructor has leaned his head forward of the firing line and is facing away from a student who is still firing. And though it's hard to make out, the student he's talking to still has those glasses covering forehead skin instead of eyes.

Sparks

Well Declan, I was as civil and polite as circumstances permitted. I put forward my questions in a list as soon as I could compile them; when you asked to see photos, I showed them to you; where I could I produced documents to show that I wasn't simply making things up; and I gave you opportunity after opportunity to put forward your side of the story in a civil and straightforward fashion. You broke the rules of the forum; it was ignored for the sake of getting answers. You were abusive; I did my best not to rise to it. You answered questions you wanted to be asked rather than those you were asked; I ignored it and just restated the question. And so on.

It would have been nice if you'd proven me wrong about you, and with me, just about every other shooter and administrator who's ever met you and subsequently spoken to me about you. You could have shown that there were good reasons for what you did and that your actions were justified and that you were actually a decent chap. And this would have been the place to do it, too. But I guess we were right all along, weren't we? No answers, only fluff. No civility, only abuse. And no information, only noise.

I suppose there is one upside to this, but it's a personal one and only a minor petty thing as a result; at least now the other readers of the board can understand why it is that I don't have a particularly high opinion of your efforts over the years and why I think it's a far better thing for you to simply cease doing things in the NRPAI's name and get back to Silhouette where you seem to have had positive results in the past. Once our sport's people stop shooting to do the administration, they almost always seem to go down this road; maybe getting back to shooting would do you some good!

tireur

Sparks wrote:

Once our sport's people stop shooting to do the administration, they almost always seem to go down this road; maybe getting back to shooting would do you some good!

Now then Sparks, you have defined your role in our sport and on this forum perfectly by this statement. You have energy, imagination and motivation. You have IQ but you clearly do not have EQ. You do not know how to channel your motivation into positive aspects for the sport and you end up being a negative influence on the total shooting community. Your diatribe (driven I suspect by the shame of being ousted from the NTSA committee by a vote of your peers) against some one who has clearly achieved far more than you for the good of all Irish shooters has diminished our sport,. Shame on you. Go back to researching and coaching and leave the politics and inter relationships with people who contibrute alone. You do not know how to handle such important matters.

Sparks

tireur wrote:

Go back to researching and coaching and leave the politics and inter relationships with people who contibrute alone. You do not know how to handle such important matters.

Politics more important than coaching?
Well, that does say a lot about what's wrong with the current setup I suppose...

tireur

In your eyes , yes, This is why you live on the boards, mainly during the day when I suspect someone is paying you to do a job for them? poor return on investment.

Sparks

Tireur, why is it that people like yourself don't ever seem to see that you look rather foolish when you post things like that?

tireur

I suppose that you are the expert on looking foolish, especially in the last three weeks, so I have to defer to you for advice on such matters.

tireur

Good night Sparks, I have no doubt we will pick this up again tomorrow but, for now, once again, I am bored fighting over the toy in this cot.

jaycee

Ah Tireur,

The very man ..!

Still considering identifying yourself ..?
Everybody else here has at least had the strength of character to do that.

Still sniping from the shadows I see.. :rolleyes:

during the day when I suspect someone is paying you to do a job for them

Careful now... that looks very like slander..!