How to Derail a Topic with a Personal Dispute.

Sparks

Whatever about the bitching and moaning CG, I actually want answers to those questions. And it's not the entire Irish Shooting scene, just a subsection of it.

As to the "Now What?" question, hopefully, the NRPAI will take note of the practises that cause the most grief and will take action to ensure they cease. They have with the Tirol Open since this year it was done under the NASRC's name - which eliminated the only problem with it that I had, at any rate.

Frankly, however, based on what I've seen in the past and what I've seen in this thread, I don't think that we'll see a great deal of change, certainly not enough for me to think the NTSA should remain a part of the NRPAI. I personally think we (as in, the NTSA) ought to take a leaf from Declan Keogh's book and split off and stand on our own feet (as the Silhouette group did out of the NASRC not too many years ago).

FLAG

Sparks

You really know how to irritate don't you. Instead of looking at the bad in everything why cant you not for once be positve, you have yet again taken an opportunity to fire unfounded allegations at me accusing me of all sorts.

I have no intention of offering proof of anything as it will only be contradicted in any case, please note restricted does not mean banned, if someone has a bullet board like you displayed they are technically in breech of the current firearms acts no matter how you look at it, ask the individuals who are currently up in the district court for the posession of a few empty .303 and 9mm casings.

It is now time to look objectivley at the proposed legislation and make appropriate representation to have it changed if the proposals for change are well enough founded.

I have a very good working relationship with the Gardai and the DOJ no matter what you say or think, what is important is what is happening now, not what you believe may or may not have happened years or months ago.

Will you ever grow up and and put your energies into construction and not destruction, what ever you think I did and how I have represented the shooting community in the last ten years I can assure you that I am confident that I did so in the best professional manner and achieved a significant positive contribution to the current amendments to the acts.

Despite what you might think I am proud of the positive statements made in relation to the contributions of both the NARGC and the SSAI.

Finally when will you get off the band wagon and stop calling the SSAI the NRPAI, one thing I can assure you is that appropriate notice of the proposed cahnge to the name was served to the committe of the NRPAI at that time to change the name to the SSAI and it was carried at the meeting, I am well aware of the rules of the association and they were complied with in respect of the name change, again what you belive to be the case is certainly not.

Why do you not gather information with respect to the areas that people are unhappy about in the proposed amendments, formulate a reasonable counter proposal and I will assure you that it gets in front of the right people with the prospect of making changes, if it is ranting however and not constructive counter suggestions it will go no where.

What a waste of time and board space when there are more important things to discuss and do. Get a grip sparks, after all if you had your way only .22 pistols would be the only ones licensed.

Sparks

FLAG wrote:

Sparks
You really know how to irritate don't you.

Not so well as you judging from all the conversations I've had with those running clubs and organisations and competitions and ranges and so on over the past decade.

Instead of looking at the bad in everything why cant you not for once be positve

Are you looking at the same amendments we are? "Be positive"?

you have yet again taken an opportunity to fire unfounded allegations at me accusing me of all sorts.

Unfounded? What world are you living in? I was describing what you've published in the press over the past few years.

please note restricted does not mean banned

No, it doesn't. And, as I said, it's a minor technical difference - on the ground, it'll be an effectively meaningless distinction : the same way that it didn't mean much on the ground over the past 32 years that pistols weren't actually banned, just that licences wouldn't be issued.

if someone has a bullet board like you displayed they are technically in breech of the current firearms acts no matter how you look at it, ask the individuals who are currently up in the district court for the posession of a few empty .303 and 9mm casings.

Indeed. The point, since you seem to have bypassed it, was that changing that was something you ought to have been working on with the DoJ. Probably a minor oversight, but had you asked at some point...

It is now time to look objectivley at the proposed legislation and make appropriate representation to have it changed if the proposals for change are well enough founded.

And you're proposing to change it, how? Seriously, put an idea forward and let's see if it can be done, and if it can, I'll put my shoulder to the wheel as well. That's an honest offer and about the best you'll get.

I have a very good working relationship with the Gardai and the DOJ no matter what you say or think

It's not what I say or think, it's what I've been told by Gardai and what I've heard from within the Minister's office.

what is important is what is happening now, not what you believe may or may not have happened years or months ago.

What's happening now is the culmination of what happened over the past few months, and if you truly don't understand it, it's time to stop and resign.

Will you ever grow up and and put your energies into construction and not destruction

I'll not be having that thanks. Leaving aside the past, I'm already helping run two national competitions in the next few months, setting up websites, training shooters, and generally helping as much as I can on the ground. That's why I'm seeing the crap that's flowing downhill, and that is why I get so irate at seeing bad workmanship at the more removed levels of administration.

what ever you think I did and how I have represented the shooting community in the last ten years I can assure you that I am confident that I did so in the best professional manner and achieved a significant positive contribution to the current amendments to the acts.

And you would characterise "best professional manner" in what way? Attacking the Commissioner, the Minister, the Gardai in the press? Opposing reform of the carding grants in the Sports Council? Attacking other shooting bodies in the same way?
I'd love to hear how that's "best professional manner".

Finally when will you get off the band wagon and stop calling the SSAI the NRPAI, one thing I can assure you is that appropriate notice of the proposed cahnge to the name was served to the committe of the NRPAI at that time to change the name to the SSAI and it was carried at the meeting,

1) I have a signed letter from the NTSA stating that they (and they included the Chairman and the Treasurer of the NRPAI) were not given such notice. I'll scan it in tomorrow and post it for you.
2) Such motions were not on the published agenda for the AGM. You yourself said in the 2001 NRPAI AGM that voting on amendments brought up at the AGM was a bad idea and you prevented it from happening then; yet the only way that motions like the name change could have been voted on was if you'd done it that way this time. Changing the name and the structure and the voting rights and so many other things of the NRPAI with no advance notice wasn't just dodgy, it was simply wrong.
3) Of course it was carried at the meeting - but it was carried with the votes from the floor, who had no voting rights and could not have been given them without a serious change to the constitution.

So that wasn't a legitimate AGM, it was a bunch of people sneaking up and hijacking the NRPAI AGM and I'll not call such a sneaky, underhanded tactic anything but sneaky and underhanded and illegitimate.

I am well aware of the rules of the association and they were complied with in respect of the name change, again what you belive to be the case is certainly not.

Really? So the two letters I have from the NTSA secretary as to what happened and the email from the NTSA chairman stating that the abuse of voting rights wouldn't be tolerated are what, lies?

Why do you not gather information with respect to the areas that people are unhappy about in the proposed amendments

Welcome to the boards.ie shooting forum Declan, WHY DO YOU THINK IT EXISTS? I'll answer for you: it's to collect information and opinions from shooters and give them a forum to discuss exactly this sort of thing - and I'll point out that it's something that you opposed from the start (I still have the emails showing this and they've been posted on another thread already).

formulate a reasonable counter proposal and I will assure you that it gets in front of the right people with the prospect of making changes

I believe that the appropriate answer to that idea is that we'll do it ourselves thanks. Your track record on representing our interests appears quite weak at present, from reading these amendments.

if it is ranting however and not constructive counter suggestions it will go no where.

And that kind of mindset (The "I rule Target Shooting" one) is one of our largest problems at the moment. So no thanks Declan, you'll not represent me or mine again if it's my choice.

What a waste of time and board space when there are more important things to discuss and do. Get a grip sparks, after all if you had your way only .22 pistols would be the only ones licensed.

What, no air pistols? No fullbore ISSF pistols? Declan, you don't know me very well.

Sparks

Sparks wrote:

1) I have a signed letter from the NTSA stating that they (and they included the Chairman and the Treasurer of the NRPAI) were not given such notice. I'll scan it in tomorrow and post it for you.
2) Such motions were not on the published agenda for the AGM. You yourself said in the 2001 NRPAI AGM that voting on amendments brought up at the AGM was a bad idea and you prevented it from happening then; yet the only way that motions like the name change could have been voted on was if you'd done it that way this time. Changing the name and the structure and the voting rights and so many other things of the NRPAI with no advance notice wasn't just dodgy, it was simply wrong.
3) Of course it was carried at the meeting - but it was carried with the votes from the floor, who had no voting rights and could not have been given them without a serious change to the constitution.

Seems I was incorrect on point 1, my apologies to all; I have a letter saying that they did had notice of the name change - but only of the name change, no notice of any of the other motions was given. Scans attached. I'll point out though; the other two points stand, and the attached NRPAI AGM minutes' agenda (scan attached) does not tally with that one release to the public domain and published in the Digest, which was (from the NRPAI webpage):

Agenda: NRPAI - AGM & Pistol/Revolver Seminar.
Venue: Heritage Hotel, Portlaoise.
Date: Saturday 11th December 2004.
Duration: 10.00 to 17.00 hrs.
AGM: 10.00 hrs to 13.00 hrs.

1. Apologies.
2. Minutes of Last AGM.
3. Matters Arising.
4. Reports from Treasurer, PRO, Chairman & Secretary.
5. Reports from Affiliated Associations.
6. NRPAI – Strategy Update.

Lunch: 13.00 hrs to 14.00 hrs
Seminar: 14.00 hrs to 17.00 hrs.

7. Firearm Safety Procedures.
8. Pistol – Revolver Proficiency.
9. Procedure for Obtaining Licence.
10. Open Forum - Q & A.

So my opinion of what went on there stands unmodified. Hiding away serious motions that changed the entire structure of the AGM and abusing the voting rights invalidates that AGM.

FLAG

Now that you admit that the motion was correctly notified and passed at the AGM will you recognise the correct name of the association as the SSAI! let me also state that despite what you may think, the only motion proposed by me was for the name change, take from that anything you want but I am well aware of the rules of the association and I have adhered to them as stated already...................so the SSAI it is.

Sparks

I won't recognise it Declan because the entire AGM was invalid. When the floor voted despite not having voting rights and when the Agenda at the AGM was not the publicly announced Agenda, those actions invalidated the whole thing. As you should have known ahead of time.

FLAG

Sparks, the AGM agenda was sent to all registered clubs and Associations as well as registered members more than one month before the AGM in accordance with the rules, so what exactly are you alleging now?

Declan

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Original Message

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Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2004 9:13 PM
Subject: NRPAI AGM Notification


>
>
>
> The National Rifle and Pistol Association of Ireland
>
>
> PO Box 9
>
>
> Blackrock Sorting Office
>
>
> Blackrock
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> Co Dublin
>
> Ireland
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> Ph:087-9007501 E-Mail: NRPAI@Eircom.net <mailto:NRPAI@Eircom.net>
>
>
>
> Agenda: NRPAI - AGM & Pistol/Revolver Seminar.
>
>
>
> Venue: Heritage Hotel, Portlaoise.
>
> Date: Saturday 11th December 2004.
>
> Duration: 10.00 to 17.00 hrs.
>
>
>
> AGM: 10.00 hrs to 13.00 hrs.
>
>
>
> 1. Apologies.
>
> 2. Minutes of Last AGM.
>
> 3. Matters Arising.
>
> 4. Reports from Treasurer, PRO, Chairman & Secretary.
>
> 5. Reports from Affiliated Associations.
>
> 6. NRPAI - Strategy Update.
>
>
>
> Lunch: 13.00 hrs to 14.00 hrs
>
>
>
> Seminar: 14.00 hrs to 17.00 hrs.
>
>
>
> 7. Firearm Safety Procedures.
>
> 8. Pistol - Revolver Proficiency.
>
> 9. Procedure for Obtaining Licence.
>
> 10. Open Forum - Q & A.
>
>
>
>
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> Looking forward to seeing you all there
>
>
>
> Kind Regards
>
> Pat Herlihy
>
> Secretary NRPAI
>

Sparks

FLAG wrote:

Sparks, the AGM agenda was sent to all registered clubs and Associations as well as registered members more than one month before the AGM in accordance with the rules, so what exactly are you alleging now?

I allege nothing - I'm stating, pointing out in fact, that the agenda you've repeated here and which I've quoted above from the NRPAI's website, and which was printed in the Irish Shooters Digest, is not the one followed in the AGM - I've attached that Agenda to the post above and you can plainly see they don't match. Specifically, there are additions made to the AGM's agenda that were not circulated around beforehand. You yourself protested in 2001 at the NRPAI AGM that drafting a motion on the floor during an AGM was a very bad idea, remember? Here you've not only supported the idea, you're defending it afterwards.

JimmySmith

still at it i see
i always check back in here to see how the wars going every few weeks.
keep it up

Sparks

Sorry for the mess Jimmy, but this really is too important to let slide. The NRPAI claims to speak in all our names; we therefore have a duty to ensure that they carry out their duty to stick to at least some rules...

FLAG

Mark: Why if you are so much the SSAI policeman do you not join the association and try and make changes from the inside instead of pissing on it from the outside, as I see it you continue to protest the happenings of yeaterday, when what matters is today and tomorrow. You encourage individuals to make individual representation to the minister on the current amendments to the firearms acts, this is really not a good idea at this juncture, time is not on our side, individual representation will have little effect, despite what you may think the SSAI as represented by FLAG at the DOJ and the Gardai are recognised and have a significant degree of crediability, so do not mislead people. If they have input send it to flagireland@eircom.net validated by their identity because we cannot represent views from individuals who refuse to be identified, no matter how good an idea it might be.

FLAG

Mark/Sparks, I am so sorry for nearly embarrassing you, I suggested that you should join the SSAI, I forgot that you cannot as you were kicked off the NTSA committee and as such would not be eligible to serve on the SSAI......apologies for that one, I suppose you should really now continue to castigate the actions of the SSAI, its officers, members and anyone else associated with it..............carry on!

Sparks

FLAG wrote:

Mark: Why if you are so much the SSAI policeman do you not join the association and try and make changes from the inside instead of pissing on it from the outside

The question is more why the NRPAI won't even follow it's own rules. And what would I do from the inside? Become part of a group of people who have already shown such disdain for the shooting community as to mug their national umbrella body in that manner? No thanks. If I knew that the NRPAI was bound by some body of rules, I might consider it; but they're not, they've proven that on more than one occasion, and frankly, I think they're past saving in their current form.

as I see it you continue to protest the happenings of yeaterday, when what matters is today and tomorrow.

So we should let you get away with whatever you want just so long as you get it done before we notice?

You encourage individuals to make individual representation to the minister on the current amendments to the firearms acts, this is really not a good idea at this juncture

'scuse me? I should instead ban people from availing of their right to speak to their representatives in government? (And that one is an actual right Declan).

time is not on our side, individual representation will have little effect

Is that why Amnesty International still runs letter-writing campaigns? Is that why politicians still count individual votes? A grassroots letter-writing campaign, even if only a few hundred of the 200,000-odd shooters out there took part, would have far more effect than you, I feel.

despite what you may think the SSAI as represented by FLAG at the DOJ and the Gardai are recognised and have a significant degree of crediability, so do not mislead people.

Point out where I misled anyone. And frankly, it's bad enough the NRPAI's council isn't directly elected by shooters, but having the official representative to the DoJ from the NRPAI not be elected by even the NGBs is past daft, by the by. As to significant credibility, I don't see much in the amendments to speak in your favour. Molann an obair an fear Declan.

If they have input send it to flagireland@eircom.net validated by their identity because we cannot represent views from individuals who refuse to be identified, no matter how good an idea it might be.

So basicly you're saying that no matter how good the idea, you won't use it from here? And you're meant to be acting in our best interests?

Sparks

FLAG wrote:

Mark/Sparks, I am so sorry for nearly embarrassing you, I suggested that you should join the SSAI, I forgot that you cannot as you were kicked off the NTSA committee and as such would not be eligible to serve on the SSAI......apologies for that one, I suppose you should really now continue to castigate the actions of the SSAI, its officers, members and anyone else associated with it..............carry on!

How I can be embarressed by being voted off the NTSA committee (due mainly to your threat to sue them if they didn't do so) I don't understand. You'd prefer I never helped instead?

By the way Declan, why are you not on the SSAI committee these days?

FLAG

I am no longer on the committee of the SSAI because I served a little under 10 years on the committee, I did not get kicked off it but made a decision that I had enough, not the least because of the crap that you were posting, I had given a very significant amount of my time to the sport and I recognised that the incoming representatives of the SSAI were going to continue to do a great job without my continued input. My FLAG colleagues and I still maintain the mandate to represent the assocaiton at DOJ and Garda HQ level and as long as the current amendments require attention I will continue to represent the views of the SSAI.
From the other post, where by you deleted my response but managed to leave your own response posted I say:!
Mark, it must be great to command ultimate power over what is posted where, say what you like on any post and move and delete posts as you see fit, despite moving the post you still manage to post a very critical response and despite the fact that you are personally involved in a dispute you act as moderator for what is posted, what is deleted and waht is moved, perhaps it is time for you to step aside as a moderator of the board and let someone more objective take over.

Sparks

Declan, that's drivel. Your post was duplicated letter-for-letter here and in the CJB thread. The first had relevance to the CJB thread and it's not been touched, the second was the personal attack above and as it was personal I deleted it from the CJB thread (where it had nothing to do with the topic) but it's still up here in it's entirity.

As to ultimate power, don't be daft. If I abused my position, Civdef or Rew or Amz (who is a moderator for the entire sports section) would stop it. Can't say that about either yourself or the NRPAI, can we?

BTW, the duplicate of your post above has been deleted from the CJB thread. Any further personal stuff that belongs in here that you post elsewhere will be either deleted from the other threads or if it isn't a duplicate, moved in there. The content won't be altered though. If you'll reread civdef's post in this thread on the first page:

OK, here's the deal - the various parties involved in this need to listen up.

This thread has been split off from another which was derailed by a continuation of a personal dispute which has already been done to death on other threads. I'm sure it's endlessly fascinating for the parties involved - but it's getting tired for the rest of us, particularly when it intrudes on toher topics.

From now on if other threads start to degenerate into the same nonsense, the relevant posts will be split off and merged with this one. Ye're also quite free to continue the debate/sniping/whatever here to your heart's content.

In other words, this moving isn't new; it's the rules laid down. We try to follow them in here rather than trying to circumvent them. It's a tad different to how you're used to running, but this isn't your fiefdom (nor mine, for that matter).

mcguiver

Jeepers lads,
Ye still moanin..... I do wonder at this stage are ye stable enough to hold a firearms licence?? Would ye not take up a hobby ...like shooting for instance ;-)