Congrats to the Government...

ArthurDent

Cork wrote:

The government has radically increased foriegn aid. It has not reached the 0.7% target. But compared to many countries - we are giving much.

But aid agencies themselves need to stop duplicating effort and wasting resources.

A report last week - highlighted a lack to co-operation between agencies.

Without a strong economy - a 0.7% target would not even be a target.

I'm sorry , please tell me you are not justifiying the actions of this govt because (a) we're doing better than many other countries (ie they aren't doing their duty so that excuses us)
(b) aid agencies are wasting resources - we have just been told of over €200million of wasted money in our health service and they are wasting resources

and

(c) if we didn't have a strong economy we wouldn't even give 0.7% - we should be grateful that our overspending/unaccountable govt see fit to give 0.7% of our money.


Please tell me these aren't your best arguments against us living up to our obligations (and a solmen promise made by our Taoiseach)

ArthurDent

Just googled Ireland GDP and the latest figure I can come up with is
€129billion (2002 figure)
http://www.economist.com/countries/Ireland/profile.cfm?folder=Profile-Economic%20Structure


0.7% of 129,000,000,000 is €903 million - all we have to do is stop overruns on crappy projects going nowhere and we're well on the way to helping Bertie keep his promises

Cork

ArthurDent wrote:

Please tell me these aren't your best arguments against us living up to our obligations (and a solmen promise made by our Taoiseach)

Countries are not obliged to meet the 0.7% target untill 2015 or so.

Giving 0.7% would require additional taxes or borrowing. Make no mistake about it this 0.7% is a yearly payment and will have to be ultimately funded by taxpayers.

Icremetally increasing aid is sensible and prudent.

Our Taoiseach is perfectly entitled to change his mind regarding the lead in to meeting this target.

We are still committed to meeting the target.

Cork

ArthurDent wrote:

€903 million - all we have to do is stop overruns on crappy projects going nowhere

Right. But the €903 will have to be paid for by the taxpayer annually.

ArthurDent

Cork wrote:

Countries are not obliged to meet the 0.7% target untill 2015 or so.

Giving 0.7% would require additional taxes or borrowing. Make no mistake about it this 0.7% is a yearly payment and will have to be ultimately funded by taxpayers.

Sensible spending of current resources and careful managment of the extra €1billion in tax that they didn't even realise they would collect this year would go a long way to making up the shortfall

Cork wrote:

Our Taoiseach is perfectly entitled to change his mind regarding the lead in to meeting this target.

We are still committed to meeting the target.

I quote from a speech made by Mr Ahern in 2003 http://www.undp.org/hdr2003/taoiseach.html

"I still recall the optimism and the shared sense of commitment, which pervaded the Millennium Summit. The world leaders gathered in New York at the Summit were determined that these common Goals could only be achieved through common action, with the United Nations at the centre of this collective effort.

..........One of the most important steps taken by the Government over the past four years has been our decision to increase significantly Ireland's Overseas Development Assistance. Since we committed in 2000 to reaching the UN target of 0.7% of GNP by 2007, our ODA has increased by €250m to €450m in2003, or 0.41% of GNP.

Despite the current more difficult economic circumstances, the Government is committed to further increasing Ireland's ODA and achieving the UN target of 0.7% by 2007."

How is he perfectly entitled to go back on this promise?

Cork

ArthurDent wrote:

Sensible spending of current resources and careful managment of the extra €1billion in tax that they didn't even realise they would collect this year would go a long way to making up the shortfall

Our GNP is increasing each year and will do so according to the ERSI.

Once off cost savings only don't re-occur.

There is nothing stopping the citizens of Ireland contributing more on an individual basis to foriegn aid today.

0.7% will need to be financed properly. Maybe free 3rd level fees could go and FAS.

Bertie cannot pull €1 billion out of the sky. €1 billion has to be paid for.

Once off savings won't go very far.

Cork

The governments proforamce is not all good or bad. They did well on NI and the economy.

I am not very impressed with progress on health. Ditching the Health Boards was good. The treatment purchase scheme cut waiting lists.

But I feel A+E needs improvement and the overall system needs to become far more efficent. I think extending cancer services was long over due.

I would liked to have seen the introduction of a fat tax. People should be hit financially for eating certain types of food.

bonkey

Cork wrote:

Giving 0.7% would require additional taxes or borrowing.

As you are so quick to point out, Cork, its not due to reach that level till 2015.

Are you suggesting that within the next 10 years our government couldn't improve their disastrous record on financial mismanagement to provide more cash?

No? Well then you're right. We're screwed.

We'll need to charge the taxpayer more. OF course, if the taxpayer in 10 years is dumb enough to accept a hike in prices because our government couldn't make a < 1% improvement in overall efficiency over 10 years, then they deserve to get hit by higher tax prices.

FFS - a business which couldn't make those improvements would fire its entire board several times over. Hell, a business which couldn't make those improvements annually would insist on heads rolling.

Its disgraceful.

jc

ISAW

ArthurDent wrote:

I'm sorry , please tell me you are not justifiying the actions of this govt because ...Please tell me these aren't your best arguments against us living up to our obligations (and a solmen promise made by our Taoiseach)

I totally agree. If the government promised 0.7 per cent then they should do it! They should fess up that they have failed to reach this target. Now please tell me if an alternative government gets in when they should achieve this? If the present government decided that this ONE issue is the most important to Ireland and therefore it MUST be done what do you suggest they cut in orde to achieve this goal? Or should the government borrow to pay for it?

Cork

I agree with Bonkey - we deserve more efficent and effective public services.

We tolerate inefficencies. God love us, If we put post boxes outside peoples houses - there is outcry.

If we decide to close a country hospital - there is outcry.

We have town councils in some towns that have out lived that usefullness about 100 years ago.

Don't get me going on our public sector unions and the efficencys delivered under benchmarking.

On paper efficencies are great but in reality our politicians have no bottle to implememnt them.

LFCFan

I bet it you did up a pro's and con's list about how the government are doing, the Con's list would be a hell of a lot longer than the Pro's.

Cork

Cork wrote:

If we decide to close a country hospital - there is outcry.

I'd imagine 160 million would keep quite a few small country hospitals open for a long time unless of course you had to give €159,000,000.99 of it to delighted and touche for to keep the payment software running...

Cork

Earthman wrote:

I'd imagine 160 million would keep quite a few small country hospitals open for a long time unless of course you had to give €159,000,000.99 of it to delighted and touche for to keep the payment software running...

I think the hospitals need decent managers. What other wastage is going on?


There may be many who are delighted.

sceptre

Cork wrote:

I think the hospitals need decent managers. What other wastage is going on?

Who knows - not even the Dept of Finance I'd guess. There used to be a time when saying something like "look after the pennies and the pounds will look after themselves" seemed rather wise. In other words, five grand (or fifty) of wasted money in every hospital around the country would add up to a tidy sum in total at the end of the year. These days, whatever about small incremental wastage that adds up to a million or a few million at the end of the year (assuming this is the case), we're doing rather well to toss out fifty million on large doorstops and paying for storage for them, a few hundred thousand (best guess from me) on a number of questionable government special advisors and 160 million (and probably over) on something that doesn't even occupy space. Turns out the pounds or euros don't look after themselves, apparently someone should have been watching that particular door and either no-one was or they didn't give a fiddler's flute.

It's fine and grand to worry about a relatively (in comparative terms) small amount of money, but not fine to use it as an evading tactic (the "look over there, kind sir" move) and especially not fine when money's being wasted hand over opened sweaty palm, not on stuff that might have a possible or clear and definable percentage of waste in accounting terms associated with it due to possible inefficiencies or poor economies of scale (again, strictly in accounting terms) but rather on (and watch this one and laugh) Ceaucescu-style grand projects that turn out to be just as useful as piling a stack of money up near the cross in the Phoenix Park and paying a member of a chart-topping group to pour petrol on it and set it alight. Not half as entertaining either. If we'd spent the money on Europe's second largest building, a crystal palace down near the river or on lots and lots of shoes we'd have more to show for it.

Waste in the health service, civil service, local administration? Sure, possible, probable, it's the extent that remains the question. And it shouldn't be ignored. But anyone who reckons we should keep a close close eye mainly on all the little pennies while we're coldly, deliberately and stupidly flushing hundreds of millions of euros down the toilet while people are still waiting for basic operations, children for dental care and while it still takes half an hour to drive through Ennis needs their head examined by the greatest doctors on the plenet to figure out why that person doesn't fall over frmo the weight of the concrete block that must make up most of the space therein.

Talk local waste and what an awful blight it is on our fair country all you like, but don't be under the illusion that anyone's fooled about its relative importance but yourself. If anyone else is, believe me, I'm really disappointed in both the also-fooled and our education system.

Cronus333

[QUOTE=patzer117>
We're suing more, becoming greedier, there is more criminality, there's more anti-social behaviour than before, the standard of education is being lowered etc. The government is making mistakes, but the way i look at it is, we ourselves are causing some of the problems and they shouldn't need to squander money on lazy, obese and ignorant people who ruin the system for the honest worker and taxpayer.
[/QUOTE]

But you can't really blame that on any government in fairness....

Thomond Pk

You can blame this government for eliminating the Law Reform Ministry

You can blame the government for cutting CGT and fostering a Gordon Gheko type culture.

You can blame the government for not hiring the additional 2000 Gardai promised

You can blame the government for the anti-social behaviour resulting from the loss of social infrastructure cut through the FAS scheme cuts.

You can blame the government for the falling education rates vis a vis our OECD competitiors through lack of investment in research programmes.

Cork

Thomond Pk wrote:

You can blame the government for the anti-social behaviour resulting from the loss of social infrastructure cut through the FAS scheme cuts.

How can you blame the government for anti-social behaviour?
I blame people who par take in anti-social behaviour.

Blaming the government for behaviour that is anti social is crazy.

If we have one of the lowest umemployment rates in the EU - the waste of public money on FAS schemes could not be justified.

DublinWriter

Cork wrote:

How can you blame the government for anti-social behaviour?

There's a direct link between anti-social behaviour and poverty coupled with a lack investment in the educational system.

You just have to look at our nearest geoghrapical neighbours for a foretaste of what we're turning into.

But Belgium, France and Germany don't have any problems with poverty and anti-social behaviour. Why? Because they spend huge portions of their GDP on their educational system.

So what's the solution Cork? Bang 'em all up? Great short-term solution, they tried it the states, a couple of prisons in Georgia even make them break rocks all day and live in tents.

This is what happens when you don't have social-inclusion.

The SSIA (God bless it!) is a great example of this government's thinking - the more money you have, the more free money you'll receive.

Cork

DublinWriter wrote:

But Belgium, France and Germany don't have any problems with poverty and anti-social behaviour. Why? Because they spend huge portions of their GDP on their educational system.

Those countries have far more unemployment than Ireland.

There's a direct link between anti-social behaviour and poverty coupled with a lack investment in the educational system.

Free primary, secondary and third level, PLCs, Fas Couses, Failte Ireland Courses, Fetec Courses, FIT courses?

Even the Belgiums, French and Germans would be envious.

The SSIA (God bless it!) is a great example of this government's thinking

1.1 million people tought so.

What about the increases in childrens allowances?
The Introduction of the mimimum wage - a move that was brought in by FF and the PDs.

RainyDay

Cork wrote:

1.1 million people tought so.

Don't equate participation in the SSIA scheme with support/agreement for the scheme. I think the scheme was an absolute scandal - another FF attempt to buy the votes middle/upper classes with state funds - a reallocation of resources to where they are least needed.

But I have a fully funded equity-based SSIA ready to mature next year. I'm not going to sit back and let others plunder the state's coffers at my expense.

black_jack

Cork wrote:

1.1 million people tought so.

Uh huh and ditto to the above poster, I think the "consequential" maturation date coming up at the probably date of the next general election. It's naked vote buying fianna fail may as well stuff hundred euro bills into their election manifesto.

But I have one. I'm not an idiot. Well I am, I used the paltry return on my eircom shares as the base of ISIA. I made damn sure the returns on my ISIA's were cast iron, and I knew that this is the government that lied to me several times before, I could gain from this piece of vote buying, and I look forward to telling the fianna fail peon who calls to my door, that yes I got a ISIA and no I'm not grateful to fianna fail, and I'm going to list of a litany of incompedence lies and corruption, so thank you very much I'll take their bribe and shove the knife in their back, and smile, and realise that the money I've gained from the ISIA will hopefully help ensure I have health care and protection in my retirement that I won't get from the state I pay taxes towards because the goddamn morons in FF have squandered the economic surplus of the last 15 years and left us with a 2nd world health care system, a shoddy transport system and a government that is ethical bankrupt.

So yes I have an ISIA, and I'm screwing FF at the polls with a smile on my lips and a wad of cash in my pocket.

Victor

Killed in the Northern Troubles (1969-2005): 3,568

Killed on Irish Roads 1997-2005(1997-2005, 26 counties) 3,564

Congratulations Bertie.

Victor

Victor wrote:

Killed in the Northern Troubles (1969-2005): 3,568

Congratulations Bertie.

If you are making a point about deaths in the North since Bertie Ahern became leader, and the gradual removal of gunlaw from this island as compared to, say 1982-1987, then yes congrats are appropriate.

And thank you for drawing attention to it too...

Culchie

Deleted User wrote:

If you are making a point about deaths in the North since Bertie Ahern became leader, and the gradual removal of gunlaw from this island as compared to, say 1982-1987, then yes congrats are appropriate.

And thank you for drawing attention to it too...

No he's not, and well you know it.

The atrocious health and safety record on our roads.....but hey, that's nothing to do with FF either is it?

Culchie

Culchie wrote:

The atrocious health and safety record on our roads.....but hey, that's nothing to do with FF either is it?

Well, perhaps drivers are the principal cause of cause road deaths? No?

But I appreciate it is easier to blame the government than suggest something like that drivers should take more responsibility for their actions.

The suggestion that somehow road carnage is FF policy is just a cheap shot.

Culchie

Deleted User wrote:

Well, perhaps drivers are the principal cause of cause road deaths? No?

But I appreciate it is easier to blame the government than suggest something like that drivers should take more responsibility for their actions.

The suggestion that somehow road carnage is FF policy is just a cheap shot.

and the 300,000 odd Provisional Licence holders on the roads, the 18 month waiting lists for a test, the nearly extinct nature of driver testers, and then the poor road conditions West of the Shannon..... Not to mention if you do crash, the hospitals probaly won't be able to take you in anyway....but sure's that's for another thread.

Nope, nothing to do with government.:rolleyes:

Oh ....and the 2000 new guards we are getting, and the penalty points system being enforced, and the computer system PULSE ..... lol

Culchie

Culchie wrote:

and the 300,000 odd Provisional Licence holders on the roads, the 18 month waiting lists for a test, the nearly extinct nature of driver testers, and then the poor road conditions West of the Shannon..... Not to mention if you do crash, the hospitals probaly won't be able to take you in anyway....but sure's that's for another thread.

Nope, nothing to do with government.:rolleyes:

Yes. On the basis of that whole 'a butterfly flaps its wings' theory one could link the government to almost everything. So it's as well that that wasn't the point I was making at all.

Do you think that drivers should sometimes accept responsibility for their actions? Do you object to convictions for drunk driving, or dangerous/careless driving, on the basis that you believe that it is society or the government that is wrong and not the poor guy behind the wheel?

I reiterate that the point I made was that road accidents are not FF policy.

Culchie

Deleted User wrote:

Yes. On the basis of that whole 'a butterfly flaps its wings' theory one could link the government to almost everything. So it's as well that that wasn't the point I was making at all.

Do you think that drivers should sometimes accept responsibility for their actions? Do you object to convictions for drunk driving, or dangerous/careless driving, on the basis that you believe that it is society or the government that is wrong and not the poor guy behind the wheel?

I reiterate that the point I made was that road accidents are not FF policy.

Now you talking nonsense Conor and evading the issues.

Of course I approve of drink driving/careless driving convictions etc.... but there are not enough police on the roads to enforce the law is there?

And you point of people being responsible for their own actions......well if we go down that line......Why bother having a police force at all ? Let's make it a free for all, no need for the courts either then !!

The government (like it or not) is responsible for policy and the enforcement of the law. They just like to duck this responsibility.


And just to nip one thing in the bud, in case you are painting me a certain party colour in your mind, embarrassed as I am to admit, I actually gave my vote to FF the last time, as I voted for a good candidate, however i will not be making that mistake again.
This government is the most inadequate, inefficient shower of cronies that ever set foot inside the dáil, and the worst thing about them is the way they all evade responsibilty, no-one is held accountable.

Road accidents is not FF policy, however, trying to prevent them should be.

Calina

Culchie wrote:

The government (like it or not) is responsible for policy and the enforcement of the law.

Like it or not, that this may be the case does not absolve drivers of their responsibilities in terms of driving like total and utter nutcases.

What sickens me about this country is the total abdication of personal responsibility. And I mean the [insert swearword + insult of choice] who would like to claim it is the government's fault that no one stops them speeding or drink driving. It is infantile, and immature and very bloody deadly.

Calina

Calina wrote:

Like it or not, that this may be the case does not absolve drivers of their responsibilities in terms of driving like total and utter nutcases.

What sickens me about this country is the total abdication of personal responsibility. And I mean the [insert swearword + insult of choice] who would like to claim it is the government's fault that no one stops them speeding or drink driving. It is infantile, and immature and very bloody deadly.

Well said.

As a matter of curiosity I opened the site linked by Victor, to find that the worst year for road casualities was in fact 1996, and it has gone down slightly every year since.

Refresh my memory. who was in Government in 1996. Not that I blame them, because as I see it there are other more pertinant factors. But, in the interests of consistency, will we hear something about Brendan Howlin's input from Cuclhie and Victor? I presume some cheap shot along the lines of 'well done Brendan' is on the cards?