Congrats to the Government...

bonkey

So should we then scrap the National Safety Council

Spoken like a true party man. Defend the status quo by suggesting abolisment rather than correction as the unattractive alternative.

Hotblack Desiato

Gah, I hate it when people suggest imposing police-state style solutions (GPS tracking, speed limiters, zero drink-drive limits) when what we need is quite simply enforcement of the existing laws.

Cork, I don't see how you can blame publicans for drink-driving. That just takes responsibility away from the offender. The only thing that will stop most of the habitual drink-drivers is a realistic risk of being caught.

Cork

ninja900 wrote:

Gah, I hate it when people suggest imposing police-state style solutions (GPS tracking, speed limiters, zero drink-drive limits) when what we need is quite simply enforcement of the existing laws.

GPS is coming in to the UK. It is a tool to cut down on joy riding and for road pricing (charging).

Drink is a cause of some accidents - Would it not be better to reduce the drink driving limit to zero.

So should we then scrap the National Safety Council

I forgot the question mark. I meant this as a question.

Of course, we should not as it has a vital role in public awareness.

It is only through public awareness & education that accidents will be cut.

Existing laws should be enforced. But you are never going to have check points down country bye roads.

cyclopath2001

ninja900 wrote:

Gah, I hate it when people suggest imposing police-state style solutions (GPS tracking, speed limiters, zero drink-drive limits) when what we need is quite simply enforcement of the existing laws.

GPS tracking is a mechanism that would enable scarce police resources to be applied more efficiently in enforcing the existing laws.

murphaph

Cork wrote:

You cannot expect Garda checkpoints on every bye road.

No, but you can expect to find them hiding behind bridges on every high quality dual carriageway nailing people for 'speeding' on roads with excellent safety records.

bonkey

Cork wrote:

I forgot the question mark. I meant this as a question.

Of course, we should not as it has a vital role in public awareness.

More twisting and turning.

YOu said it was a good organisation. Victor pointed out that it was effectively run by the automotive industry.

So I didn't misunderstand your rhetorical question. I pointed out that your "but we'd be worse off without it" response is a complete dodging of the issue. You don't address the failings that are there, which is what was pointed out, but rather defend it by effectively saying "its better than nothing".

Of course its better than nothing, but no-one suggested we should have nothing in place of it.

It is only through public awareness & education that accidents will be cut.

Which are the responsibility of whom, exactly?
And lets not forget the important of enforcement as well.

But you are never going to have check points down country bye roads.

Why not? Are the laws not worth enforcing there? Should we ask the government to own up and say that drink-driving laws only apply on roads of or above a certain category? Should we educate the public to say "don't drink and drive, unless you're going home on the backroads"???

We are never going to have checkpoints on every road at the same time, but thats not the same thing.

jc

Hotblack Desiato

Cork wrote:

GPS is coming in to the UK. It is a tool to cut down on joy riding and for road pricing (charging).

It's also a rather sneaky way of using "safety" as an excuse to further dismantle civil liberties.

Drink is a cause of some accidents - Would it not be better to reduce the drink driving limit to zero.

No - because most convicted drink-drivers are at least twice over the existing limit. Lowering it will make no difference to them, but will needlessly criminalise a whole class of responsible, safe drivers - and (like silly speed limits) bring the law into disrepute.

I forgot the question mark. I meant this as a question.

The NSC is primarily a mouthpiece for the motor insurance industry. We need a driver education body but not one which is effectively owned by a vested interest.

Existing laws should be enforced. But you are never going to have check points down country bye roads.

I think that's ridiculous. Given sufficient Garda resources it will be possible to have effective traffic policing. Every other developed country can manage this, why not us?

cyclopath2001

ninja900 wrote:

It's also a rather sneaky way of using "safety" as an excuse to further dismantle civil liberties.

What about the civil liberties of the victims of selfish & dangerous drivers?

bonkey

GPS is coming in to the UK. It is a tool to cut down on joy riding and for road pricing (charging).

Can you explain how it will cut down on joy-riding, Cork?

Can you explain how it offers anything over (say) RFID for road pricing?
In short, can you explain why it is a good idea rather than just baldly stating that it is one?

Personally, I think its a horrific idea which - once looked at - holds no real merit whatsoever. Its yet another hollow "perception of security" non-solution that governments are going to hoist on their public for whatever reason.

So I await your explanation of its merits, seeing as you clearly disagree with me. Note - its an explanation I'm asking for, not a repetition of the supposed benefits. I want you to eplain how GPS will help tackle joyriding.

I'll even be nice, and point out before you begin that GPS tells you where you are. It does not tell others where you are. So thats teh first thing you need to explain. How will telling a joyrider the name of the street he's drivnig down somehow prevent his joyriding...

I'd like to see if Cork actually understands why this idea he is supporting is supposedly a good one. I'd then like to see if he can firstly explain then subsequently defend those points. I'm stating in advance that I believe he's not going to be able to do so.

jc

Hotblack Desiato

cyclopath2001 wrote:

What about the civil liberties of the victims of selfish & dangerous drivers?

Cyclopath, we're on the same side here, just with different views on how to go about it.

I'm all for enforcing our existing traffic laws much more rigorously. What we have at the moment is anarchy on the roads. I should know - I'm out of action with a broken leg at the moment because of some silly b*tch who turned right across my motorbike's path.

What we don't need is a UK-style mushrooming of speed cameras everywhere, raising revenue but with very little or no safety impact, and Big Brother tracking of the movements of law-abiding citizens.

We just need a proper traffic corps, and a proper system of training, testing and educating drivers. It's not bloody rocket science.

bonkey

What about the civil liberties of the victims of selfish & dangerous drivers?

Can you show that the proposed system will help these victims in the first place? If not, then my answer would be "what about them?"

jc

Victor

Cork wrote:

So should we then scrap the National Safety Council.

Odd that you should say that, but that is just what the government want to do, moving the road safety element into an off-shoot of the NRA to be called the Road Safety Authority. However, I suspect his is merely a fence moving manoeuver associated with decentralisation.

Reform is certainly needed, for a start removing its dependence on private finance and reconstituting it's board with a more victim-friendly way.

Edit, oddly enough.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/1024/roads.html

Insurance body attacks road safety record

24 October 2005 20:07

The Irish Insurance Federation has launched a blistering attack on the Government's road safety record.

The IIF vice president, John O'Neill, said at least one motorcyclist was dying on the roads each week because of the Government's failure to implement mandatory roads training for motorcyclists.

Mr O'Neill also called on the Government to stop messing around when it came to implementing the road safety strategy.
Advertisement

Mr O'Neill was speaking at the launch of the National Safety Council's 'Arrive Alive' safety campaign, which is focused on road safety over the October Bank Holiday weekend and on into the winter.

His comments were backed up by the chairman of the National Safety Council, Eddie Shaw, who said there was a dire need for joined up thinking in Government on road safety.

Mr Shaw said Government policy was not the problem but enforcing it was.

Speaking at the same event, the Garda Commissioner, Noel Conroy, highlighted the fact that drink driving is still a major contributor to serious injuries and death on the roads.

Mr Conroy also said he was satisfied that the gardaí were adequately resourced when it came to enforcing road safety law.

He also said that drivers could expect to see more garda activity on the roads late at night and early in the morning over the coming months.

The campaign that was launched today will target drivers through radio and bus shelter advertising over the coming weeks.

cyclopath2001

bonkey wrote:

Can you show that the proposed system will help these victims in the first place? If not, then my answer would be "what about them?"
jc

Such systems are already in use on rental cars and have done much to reduce speeding by renters and have assisted car recovery. If we reduce speeding, I think we can can reduce death and injury on the road and also the daily intimidation of vulnerable road-users by selfish & careless motorists.

Experiments are already under way to track cars by any GSM phone that might be present, so the way is open for very cost-effective solutions.

The advantages for law-abiding motorists are clear, lower insurance premia & safer roads. Indeed, if all of the lawless drivers were to be taken off the road, we'd have much less congestion.

Do you have better ideas? We need to get radical & avoid falling into the trap of allowing the lunatics run the asylum as is the case at present.

Victor

cyclopath2001 wrote:

Experiments are already under way to track cars by any GSM phone that might be present, so the way is open for very cost-effective solutions.

At this time, this is only useful in traffic management, not enforcement.

cyclopath2001

Victor wrote:

At this time, this is only useful in traffic management, not enforcement.

This is true, but technology is developing rapidly these days and what appears hi-tech today will be standard consumer-issue equipment tomorrow. Sadly, in road safety, Ireland is not an innovator and struggles to emulate even the most established & proven practices of other countries. We really need to change our thinking & abandon the old thinking that's got us into the current mess.

Cynical ploys such as 'shared-use' car & cycle lanes amd 'facilities' that are non-operational at night show that when it comes to road-safety, the authorities are only interested in the superficial appearance of doing something.

Cork

GPS Technology would help with joy riding and stolen cars.

I think an insurance database linked to the vehicle database is needed.

Too many Gardai are wasted looking at expirey dates of insurance discs.

Also, camara reading technology could check tax and insurance for all passing cars. (This is the case in the UK) This would enable Gardai to focus in on enforcement.

Victor

Cork wrote:

GPS Technology would help with joy riding and stolen cars.

Yeah, it would be great, anto and Deco could end up lost on the Southside otherwise.

bonkey

Cork wrote:

GPS Technology would help with joy riding and stolen cars.

I've asked you to explain how, not reiterate your bald assertion that it would be. Do you actually understand how it will help, or are you just parroting smoeone else's idea?

You are aware, I assume, that GPS tells you where you are. It doesn't broadcast where you are, it tells you where you are. You could connect it to a recording mechanism, then you know where you've been.

Now...you walk out of your house. Your car isn't there. Somewhere in the country, yuour car is being driven by a criminal. The GPS is recording how the criminal drove there from your house. With the right bits, the crim could look at the GPS an dknow exactly where he is. You, however, cannot use the GPS to find out where your car is, because GPS is not a transmission-based tech.

Now seriously Cork...how does this help against theft????

Are you suggesting that every car be transmitting its GPS coordinates??? If so, how will you deal with thieves simply disconnecting the transmitter? Transmit every car location 24/7, even if the car isn't in use? Send the police to check every lost signal, including cars going under bridges, into underground carparks, having dead batteries, suffering hardware failure, etc?

So explain it to me Cork. Explain how this cause you're championing isn't going to end up wasting another fortune for the taxpayers so you can subsequently offer us more "the government has spent more than anyone" platitudes.

The only place GPS is currently "useful" - as was pointed out - is in recording the journeys of rental cars, so that the drivers responsible for speeding can be nabbed after the car is returned and teh data analysed.

The only reason this requires GPS as opposed to simple tachometer-linked recording is because there isn't a uniform speed-limit on all roads, and a GPS unit is required to determine what the speed limit is where you currently are, so it can record if you're doing 40 in a 30 zone as easily as it can record you doing 150 on a 120 road. Personally, I'm highly skeptical that these units don't record all driving details they can (so rental companies can better profile their customers) - and its this concern which is the root of my opposition. I've no objection to the car having GPS and using it to track issues like speeding....as long is it is discarding any information of my activities except when I'm breaking the law.

So c'mon Cork...tell me how having an in-car recording of how a thief got from where he stole a car to wherever he is now is going to help stop him from stealing the car in the first place.

Too many Gardai are wasted looking at expirey dates of insurance discs.

Cost to the gardai? Cost of the replacement, linked system and/or camera-system you think would be a "good idea"?

Culchie

bonkey wrote:

Cost to the gardai? Cost of the replacement, linked system and/or camera-system you think would be a "good idea"?

Is this an additional cost to the 3 cameras we already have in the Republic of Ireland for road traffic offences

LOL, This country is a joke.

There's more cameras outside any chipper in the country than there is on the thousands of miles of road network in the country.

cyclopath2001

bonkey wrote:

I've asked you to explain how, not reiterate your bald assertion that it would be. Do you actually understand how it will help, or are you just parroting smoeone else's idea?

You are aware, I assume, that GPS tells you where you are. It doesn't broadcast where you are, it tells you where you are. You could connect it to a recording mechanism, then you know where you've been.

I've put the idea forward a few times.

It appears that you're not familiar with the full application of the technology. Let me explain:

I'm proposing GPS tracking devices, not the GPS navigation aids that you mention. The former actually do transmit one's location. They are already in use by rental companies in the US, owners of valuable cars here, various logistics companies and also volunteers who agreed to have them fitted to avail of lower insurance premia.

One advantage would be that instead of penalising drivers for a rare lapse of judgement, it would be possible to detect those who constantly drive badly. Other faults such as driving through red lights & failing to indicate could also be monitored and a detailed picture of a driver's competance would be built up. Perphaps, this would help identify people who should be called back for further testing. Another application would be to facilitate 'pay per drive' policies.

Now I'm not sure how we'd deal with the guy in the people-carrier driving the cycle lane or the lady in the Fiesta who overtook me driving the wrong way around a roundabout with an unrestrained child standing on the back seat, but I suppose if technology could release Gardai from speed camera duties, then could watch for this kind of irresponsible behaviour.

Ireland has led the way with a smoking ban, even when many selfish people claimed it infringed their rights.

Let's lead again, this time, in road safety.

I hope this clarifies the idea.