FF/FG Coalition...

...Good idea? Bad idea?

Personally, I think if the numbers don't permit another FF/PD Coalition - and at the moment I wouldn't put my house on it - it's high time the two major parties looked at this option. Strong Government, not a whole lot between them in policies, would certianly prefer it to anything with Labour or SF.

Any thoughts?

is_that_so

Defeats the purpose of voting one way or the other. Not a good idea. The closest we came was the excellent Tallaght strategy which suited that time.

mike65

A ahem, Grand Coalition would never work as far too many politicans in the two parties would have NO JOB to do, this is why a large majority is frequently a curse rather than a blessing. Can you imagine a government where there's a total of say 120 TDs, only about 30 can be in the cabinet or junior positions add a few more for AG, speaker etc then you left with lines of bored members who have nothing better to do than bitch about the "fellow" members from the other party and plot...the chief whips would earn thier pay.

Mike.

gandalf

Well personally I would prefer if these two parties actually merged. They are both Centre Right imho (I know FF like to think they are centre left, but this current government have put paid to that notion). If they merged then we might have a chance at a proper left-right balance in the dail.

Time Magazine

gandalf wrote:

Well personally I would prefer if these two parties actually merged. They are both Centre Right imho (I know FF like to think they are centre left, but this current government have put paid to that notion). If they merged then we might have a chance at a proper left-right balance in the dail.

You left out "but this will never ever ever happen". Ever. Civil War politics is here to stay. Fine Gael would never merge with Fianna Fáil. Not in the next fifty years anyway.

Sleepy

I've heard the suggestion out of the mouths of at least two members of the Dail, one from each party so I don't think it's *that* unlikely. Personally I can't see it happening in the next ten years though...

gom

Humm, Well anything is possible. An end to Civil War politics in sight you suggest. I would welcome it as a Labour supporter as it would form a Left-Right divide and end the Right-Right divide we currently have.

I think it is safe to say that FG is more rightwing than FF. FF is Centre-Right but FG had only a brief spell of Social-Liberialism and then it was back to basics especially since 2002 GE. Has anyone seen the younger elements of FG and the activists. They are practically Tories. Lucinda Creighton admires Maggie Tatcher ffs.

If after the next election FG and Labour don't get the numbers to form a coalition the only other obvious choice would be FF/Labour. I'm telling you now as a Labour Activist that there is no way in hell that Labour will go into government with FF. While some people hint at it they are only 5% or less of the party membership. What the voters want is irrelevant in terms of coalitions. Labour has one option in the next election and thats FG. FF has one option and thats Labour. FG on the other hand I never really thought about. If FG fail to get the numbers of seats that they had pre-2002 I can see serious trouble for the party. If FG fail to go into government in the next election I can see that new dynamic and energetic activism that they have in the party cooling somewhat.

Labour is seeing a grassroots revival and has a huge amount of Local Councillors passing 100 at the last LE. Labour runs Dublin in terms of the councils and will be making massive gains in Dublin in the next GE. The future is going to drastically change politically so I would definitly not discount FF and FG forming a coalition or merging.

I think that FG and FF won't offically merge but you might see them becoming sister parties much like the CDU and CSU in Germany. FG would take alot of Leinster Rural areas and FF would concentrate on Suburbs. SF would take the poor rural areas and Labour would be city stronghold.. I'm going far too off topic..

FF and FG merger
Not for another 10 years minimum.

FF and FG Coalition
Very possible if SF get extensive support in the next GE. You will see SF taking FF votes in places like Donegal, Louth and other poorer rural areas. This will probably bring the combined strength of FF and FG to 30% or less. The next government would be a FG/Labour led one but I can't see that coalition arrangement being nearly as propetual as FF/PD.

Role on September 2006

Time Magazine

gom wrote:

Has anyone seen the younger elements of FG and the activists. They are practically Tories. Lucinda Creighton admires Maggie Tatcher ffs.

I resent that stereotype you Trot .

Although the Freedom Institute and some other very conservative elements exert their muscle in YFG, as sure as you state that Labour won't go to bed with FF, YFG are not "practically Tories" or anything like it. We are in the European Peoples Party - a centre-right body. If there was anyone we'd associate ourselves with in Britain it would be Labour.

And as somebody who talked to Cllr. Creighton about that Maggie Thatcher quote and the politics of Fine Gael as recently as last Wednesday - I can assure you she's a Christian Democrat who "strongly believes in our responsibility to the marginalised in society". I was asking her whether people like the members of the F.I. would drag us further to the Right and she said no. She said she strongly believed we'd say Centrist. And the Thatcher quote was something along of the lines of "I don't admire many of the things she achieved, but her determination is admirable". Which is true tbh. Hardly grounds to call us Tories.

is_that_so

gom wrote:

Very possible if SF get extensive support in the next GE. You will see SF taking FF votes in places like Donegal, Louth and other poorer rural areas.
Role on September 2006

Not likely to happen tbh and a bit insulting to "poorer rural areas", mostly down to a shortage of quality "electable" candidates. Sinn Fein already have a Louth TD and Dermot Ahern as sitting FF TD is pretty much untouchable. IMHO a summer election is more likely unless the Govt can can dig up some credibility between now and the Spring. If the gap gets to 10% or more it could happen sooner than we think.

dahamsta

mike65 wrote:

Can you imagine a government where there's a total of say 120 TDs, only about 30 can be in the cabinet or junior positions...

I suppose it's too much to ask the rest of them to do... you know... the job they were voted in for?

Sand

It might be conceivable - theyre just a bunch of populists with little in policy other than hating the other Civil War traitors, Id say even half of them cant put a finger on some reason why they could never merge with each other. minor differences in policy is all that seperates them - but youd have to see the entire old guard dead and buried, the party grassroots on either side would have to be willing to work with guys theyve alway seen as their chief rivals - alot might prefer to go with independants etc etc, and most importantly FF and FG would have to be so completely sidelined and marginalised that their desperate greed for power at any cost outweighed their mutual hatred. There was a point there a few years ago where the last rites were being pronounced on FG and it would have been the best thing in Irish politics if it had occured.

I can see FG getting marginalised because theyre a very, very center slight right party that has somehow become trapped in alliance with the Irish lefties, but FF have managed to swing from Labour to the PDs ( and right back again if it suits them) so its less likely theyll ever be reduced to that state of desperation. I mean, FG might be closer to my politics than the center left FF, but a vote for FG is a vote for the frickin Labour party. If I wanted Labour in power Id vote for them myself. Lefties wont vote for them either because they have the Labour/Greens/SFIRA to vote for instead. FF however have proven themselves much more agile politically.

I suppose it's too much to ask the rest of them to do... you know... the job they were voted in for?

Protect publicans from competition and getting their mates appointed to cushy government panels? I thought they were doing a fine job of that.

dahamsta

I said "voted in for", not "think they were voted in for".

Time Magazine

Sand wrote:

It might be conceivable - theyre just a bunch of populists with little in policy other than hating the other Civil War traitors

:rolleyes:

Id say even half of them cant put a finger on some reason why they could never merge with each other.

:rolleyes:

minor differences in policy is all that seperates them

That's the first even half decent reason. And there are substantial differences in policy. Take neutrality for example.

but youd have to see the entire old guard dead and buried, the party grassroots on either side would have to be willing to work with guys theyve alway seen as their chief rivals

Even when they have...

their desperate greed for power at any cost

There was a point there a few years ago where the last rites were being pronounced on FG and it would have been the best thing in Irish politics if it had occured.

:rolleyes:

I can see FG getting marginalised because theyre a very, very center slight right party

And I can see them shoring up the Christian Democrat vote as they annihilate the PD's and FF do their sway dance. Look just about everywhere in the world, a generation with increased affluence (like those turning 18ish now) tend to be more Christian Democrat than prior to increased wealth.

ISAW

mike65 wrote:

A ahem, Grand Coalition would never work as far too many politicans in the two parties would have NO JOB to do,

Of course they have a job. they just wounldnt have a position in the Oireachtas other than TD and committee member. If you think they are doing nothein (I dont) then let them reduce the numbers. Sure the same number of TD's arent doing something now. Just being in the opposition does not mean you are suddenly doing something does it?

geraghd

FG might be closer to my politics than the center left FF, but a vote for FG is a vote for the frickin Labour party. If I wanted Labour in power Id vote for them myself. Lefties wont vote for them either because they have the Labour/Greens/SFIRA to vote for instead. FF however have proven themselves much more agile politically.

That doesnt seem logical... at all...
A vote for FG is a vote for an increased centre right influence within a new coalition govt. However a vote for FF is a vote for whatever will get them into power, so you really dont know what you are getting with your vote, a centre left, left, centre, or centre right govt...

ISAW

geraghd wrote:

That doesnt seem logical... at all...
A vote for FG is a vote for an increased centre right influence within a new coalition govt. However a vote for FF is a vote for whatever will get them into power, so you really dont know what you are getting with your vote, a centre left, left, centre, or centre right govt...

Care to please explain what you mean by "left" "right" "center left" and "center right" and how FG are "centre Right"?

geraghd

left, centre-left, centre or centre right govt depending on the party FF goes in with.
And FG are a Christian Democractic party which is a centre-right ideology..

ISAW

geraghd wrote:

left, centre-left, centre or centre right govt depending on the party FF goes in with.
And FG are a Christian Democractic party which is a centre-right ideology..

isnt this just redefining the map depending on who occupies the territory?

If one has a pope as the yardstice then what is a "right wing" pope? Surley the pope is the centre and everything defined in relatin to him?

So how come you seem to define FF as the papasy of Irish politics?

geraghd

FF are pretty much centre in terms of irish politics, but with a slight conservative leaning (as most of the mainstream has, or at least had). however FF are a populist party, and as such gather ideas and ideology from a range of minds, and so are more or less centrist.