What would Ireland be like if we'd stayed in the Union?

murphaph

.....very hypothetically, and please no stupid comments.....

With all the talk on these boards of a United Ireland being on the horizon, it got me thinking, what would Ireland be like today if WWI hadn't happened (when it happened) and Home Rule had been passed in Westminster, returning a parliament to College Green perhaps?

I imagine Dublin would be a little different. There would have been no rising or civil war so there would be a fair few buildings around today that were destroyed in those events. I think Dublin might have gotten an Underground like London & Glasgow.

Nationally, I definitely believe there would be an inter-urban motorway in existence right now, dating from the 60's perhaps.

I am not sure if our economy would be doing as well as it is right now, but I believe we may have done better in the past and be on a fairly good standing right now, somewhere along the lines of how Scotland declined and is now seeing a resurgence.

We'd have an NHS of course and we'd still be using Sterling. The Union flag would still be flown, probably alongside the St. Patrick's Cross on public buildings.....and the pillar would probably still be there.

Any thoughts?

Would the troubles have happened if Home Rule had been applied to the whole island?

simu

Interesting. Your ideas sound about right to me. I heard an interesting lecture by Garret Fitzgerald this summer where he pointed out that if we hadn't gotten out when we did, we might never have because once the welfare state came in, leaving would mean a loss of all the associated benefits. Strange to think that, though!

Hmmm, I think we'd be a lot more anglicised, culturally speaking and would have had less success in the EU. On a more positive note, the Catholic Church would not have been so influential and many of the scandals of neglect and abuse in Church institutions might never have happened.

murphaph

murphaph wrote:

There would have been no rising or civil war so there would be a fair few buildings around today that were destroyed in those events.

German bombing in the 1940s may have been slightly more marked though...and we'd all be watching for Muslims right now...

CerebralCortex

Deleted User wrote:

German bombing in the 1940s may have been slightly more marked though...and we'd all be watching for Muslims right now...

Ireland could have even provided more space for the RAF, and the Royal Navy thus giving more of an advantage to the British over the German force meaning a quicker end to World War 2. What with all the extra men and resources Ireland would have provided it would have to have had made a difference.

simu

No civil war! Therefore no civil war politics! Hard to imagine Ireland without that!

Think of all the Eurovisions we'd lose.

murphaph

I doubt Dublin would have seen a lot of bombing to be honest. We didn't bild ships like Belfast did. Belfast was much more industrialised and would have always been the main target of german bombing IMO.

The welfare state idea is very interesting.

CerebralCortex

Deleted User wrote:

Think of all the Eurovisions we'd lose.

Who cares?

CerebralCortex

CerebralCortex wrote:

Who cares?

It was a joke...

A Dub in Glasgo

What would Ireland be like if we'd stayed in the Union?

It would be united and all those folk who live in the Republic who view their fellow countrymen in two thrids of Ulster as foreign would be confused

murphaph

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

It would be united and all those folk who live in the Republic who view their fellow countrymen in two thrids of Ulster as foreign would be confused

Why? We'd all hold a UK of GB & I passport

daveirl

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A Dub in Glasgo

daveirl wrote:

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I have had a completely different life growing up within one of the most neglected areas of Dublin compared to other areas. Should I regard the people who have different experiences to me in my own country as foreign?

oscarBravo

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Should I regard the people who have different experiences to me in my own country as foreign?

Nope. People who have different experiences in another country? Different story...

murphaph

and the next obvious comment is; I've had similar experiences to a bloke in New Zealand, should I regard him as irish?

To drag this back on topic, I think we'd have a better rail service between the big towns and cities and I think our population would be quite a bit larger than it is now. We'd also likely have more 2nd and 3rd generation minorities living here.

ADIG,I think he might have been referring to postage stamps, non obligatory Irish in schools,sterling bank notes,English road signs, phones and TV channels,the NHS, and a myriad of other things.

His point is flawed I think though to the extent that as it stands the GAA and Irish culture is pervasive among nationalists in the North.
They are to all intents and purposes more Irish than we are down south.

It's a different story with unionists though and there in lies the problem, theres a million or so of them and what effect they would have on the structure and society of a UI is unknown but it would be significant.

A Dub in Glasgo

oscarBravo wrote:

Nope. People who have different experiences in another country? Different story...

Comes down to what you call your own country.... You: 26 county Republic of Ireland, me: 32 county Ireland. You see the Irishmen in two thirds of Ulster as foreign... I do not. I seriously doubt your mind will ever see the two thirds Ulster as nothing other than foreign irrespective of the status of Ireland.

Hydroquinone

Earthman wrote:

His point is flawed I think though to the extent that as it stands the GAA and Irish culture is pervasive among nationalists in the North.
They are to all intents and purposes more Irish than we are down south.

That's the whole point, though, isn't it? They are only "more Irish" than us because the border is there, encouraging those of a Nationalistic persuasion to be even more Nationalistic, because they had something to fight against. If the whole island had remained in the UK, and the border had never been there, who is to say what we'd be like?
Interesting question.
Are the Welsh any less Welsh because they are also British? Are the Scots any less Scottish because they are British? Are the movements for devolution from London in those countries driven by what they've seen us do?

biko

Well, we would have remained a milking cow of the British empire. Until the next kind of rising... Don't forget 1798 and others

murphaph

biko wrote:

Well, we would have remained a milking cow of the British empire.

<is minded to think how B&Q, Boots, Next, Burton, Clarks, Penneys (Primark), Debenhams, HMV, Virgin, Tesco, Carphone Warehouse, Kwik-Fit, Ulster Bank (RBoS), M&S, Vodafone, O2 and B effing T to name but a few, milk us all pretty well today>

Seriously though-think home rule, not just continuing as before.

billy the squid

17 percent VAT instead of 21 percent.

postcodes

a telecom regulator with balls

better roads

No TV3

A half decent reason for irish people to watch english football teams on TV/

rainbows

sunshine

happiness

Ajnag

More industrialised? Smaller service sector? Larger Rates of immigration? Less corruption?


Hmm... thing is with what if's is you could easily spend an eternatity make points from both positive and negative perspective. This version of history suits me fine tho.

the_syco

More pissed off people. IRB maybe more organised. IRB may have helped/gained support from the Germans. Two pronged attack against the British homeland, from the Germans, and from the IRB. I assume the IRB would still be around, as the IRA may not have been formed, as there may not have been a split as extreme as there was?

No celtic tiger, still have people leaving, lots of people still poor...

Kernel

Constant rebellion on the streets. Occupation of government buildings leading to eventual death of all revolutionaries involved, leading to a civil uprising. At least, that's the way I'd do it.

Kernel

By the way, I say that as someone who had a great grandfather involved in the socialist/repulican revolution (1916 rising), someone whose grandmother remembered the black & tans firing rifles into her house windows while the tans where on their way to the city centre (the house was not republican and full of children), and another grandfather who was in Croke Park the time the occupying force rolled an armoured car onto the pitch and shot players and supportes indiscriminately (he was a child at the time)...

Not a million years ago.

Maskhadov

Ireland would have been heavily bombed in the second world war.

Other european countries wouldnt have any good faith towards us because were british.

Al Quida would be carrying out suicide bombings in Dublin since we are part of the Iraqi occupation.

Ireland would be morally guilty for backing the Iraqi war.

Catholic and Irish culture would be second fiddle to protestant and british culture. Much like Northern Ireland.

We would have a weak economy slightly worse than scotland.

Still a MASSIVE inferiority complex with english and scots rubbing our noses in it.

daveirl

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BuffyBot

Al Quida would be carrying out suicide bombings in Dublin since we are part of the Iraqi occupation.

Eh? By that reason they should have bombed Edinburgh, Glasgow, Manchester, Leeds, Cardiff...etc etc by now.

Anyway, I suspect that even if home rule had been granted, we probably would have ended up being independent by now anyway, in much the same way that other British territories gained theirs.

murphaph

BuffyBot wrote:

Eh? By that reason they should have bombed Edinburgh, Glasgow, Manchester, Leeds, Cardiff...etc etc by now.

and BELFAST of course!

BuffyBot wrote:

Anyway, I suspect that even if home rule had been granted, we probably would have ended up being independent by now anyway, in much the same way that other British territories gained theirs.

I disagree. I agree with the point that was made that had we lasted in the Union, even under home rule (that's just old fahioned speak for what the scots have now-devolved government) until the welfare state had been introduced, we would still be in it today. We were not just another colony, like India or Kenya that gained independence remember-we were actually part of the UK, so the welfare state etc. would have been introduced here.

murphaph

Maskhadov wrote:

Ireland would be morally guilty for backing the Iraqi war.

We still allow United States military aircraft to use the facilities at Shannon, so we are 'morally' 'guilty' of that regardless.

Maskhadov wrote:

Catholic and Irish culture would be second fiddle to protestant and british culture. Much like Northern Ireland.

<casts mind back to priests/brothers/nuns battering the living fcuk out of all and sundry, particularly little kids.> Maybe protestantism isn't the bogey man when viewed against this backdrop?

Maskhadov wrote:

We would have a weak economy slightly worse than scotland.

The economy of the UK as a whole is vey robust, and Scotland is doing rather well for itself IMO. We are 'paper rich' in this country. A lot of this perceived wealth could vanish as quickly as it came. Personally I think we'd have seen a lot more state funding of R&D incubators at irish universities, thus spurring on indigenous industry and reducing the (still) overwhelming dependence on FDI in this country.

Maskhadov wrote:

Still a MASSIVE inferiority complex with english and scots rubbing our noses in it.

Ah you're only inferior if you let people make you feel that way. Are the scots any less scottish inside the Union? I don't think so. They have maintained their identity and even americans can recognise that a scot != an englishman.

Maskhadov

at the end of the day we would be the thick micks .. second class citzens in our own country.

usa use of shannon is bad enough but i dont want blood on my hands in supporting an imperial war machine.

im not a brit and never want to be. thank god the brits left. just look at the north, hardly a great example for us to follow eh ??