I don't care how in love you are!

xtrac

MorningStar wrote:

They all deserve religious respect you don't get to choose who is allowed have a belief or get to riddcule them. Unless you want to be like a Nazi or raceist.

Ok, I am all for religious freedom, and support peoples rights to believe in whatever the fcuk they want (really I do). BUT, and its a big but, please dont ever tell me that I cannot ridicule said belief. I my opinion religion is a total crock, and I'll ridicule/make fun of any religion I want, in any medium I want.(With all the crazy feckers (fundamentalists and otherwise) out there, this might not be the cleverest thing I ever do ) Or are you going to take away my article 19 rights in the UN declaration of human rights?

So we are clear, I support religious freedom and support folks right to believe in anything they want, I also believe in my right to ridicule the sh!te out of that (the belief) too.

So to what you said above, you were only half right, I do not get to choose who is allowed to have a (religious) belief (and this I agree with), but I do get to rip the absolute piss of out that same belief if I so wish.

Mr. Nice Guy, once again you are a paragon of common sense, Sir, I salute you

-Roy

MorningStar

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

What does Islam have to do with this?


What are you talking about? I posted you a quote from Hubbard himself!

Connect the dots. Many muslims don't call it a religion and Hubbard says his is not a religion. Many people don't call their religion a religion but a way of life is the point! That negates him saying it is not a religion

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

Er, when?

Go back and look at what I quoted and you say "Hubbard founded this religion for one reason - money" That's you calling it a religion.

Try to stay focused on what is being said and what you are saying. You might understand now why I wouldn't consider your opinion of what is and is not a religion very highly. I don't think I know the key to life so I am not going to riddicule other people who find a way to make sense of it all. What makes you think it is acceptable to riddcule another persons belief? Is it your years studying scripture?

monkeyfudge

stevenmu wrote:

As far as I'm aware scientologists don't try to push their religion on anybody.

They try to indoctrinate people walking down the street into their religion under the pretense of a free personality test... that's pretty damn pushy if you ask me.

Dades

stevenmu wrote:

As far as I'm aware scientologists don't try to push their religion on anybody.

Okay, for a mod you're a bit out of the loop!

MorningStar wrote:

I defend religious freedom and try to see what the benifits of are of each. AS an atheist I guess you have faith in science which does take leaps of faith is people like Stephen Hawkins who change their mind!

Ahh but science is self-correcting! The first thing science does with a new theory is to attempt disprove it.

Check out this cover story by Time Magazine in 1991 about Scientology. Mad, I say.

fade

xtrac wrote:

Ok, I am all for religious freedom, and support peoples rights to believe in whatever the fcuk they want (really I do). BUT, and its a big but, please dont ever tell me that I cannot ridicule said belief. I my opinion religion is a total crock, and I'll ridicule/make fun of any religion I want, in any medium I want.(With all the crazy feckers (fundamentalists and otherwise) out there, this might not be the cleverest thing I ever do ) Or are you going to take away my article 19 rights in the UN declaration of human rights?

So we are clear, I support religious freedom and support folks right to believe in anything they want, I also believe in my right to ridicule the sh!te out of that (the belief) too.

So to what you said above, you were only half right, I do not get to choose who is allowed to have a (religious) belief (and this I agree with), but I do get to rip the absolute piss of out that same belief if I so wish.

Mr. Nice Guy, once again you are a paragon of common sense, Sir, I salute you

-Roy

exactly, people can worship a bllody shepards pie for all i care, but when i find something utterly and absolutely ridiculous ill rip the piss out of them.

scientology is nonsense, pure and utter.

and as for tom, well he can do whatever he likes, but dont try and say that he hasnt turned into an absolute maniac!
and poor katie, the birth is gonna be so painfull for her.

oh and add creationism to that list of things to mock

MorningStar

xtrac wrote:

So we are clear, I support religious freedom and support folks right to believe in anything they want, I also believe in my right to ridicule the sh!te out of that (the belief) too.

y

Sure why not throw race in there or country of origin? Gangus Khan even understood religious respect is essential. To allow religious freedom you have to also protect them from predjudice and riddcule. Do you really think religious jokes are all harmless? Jokes about race aren't all racist. If you don't think respect is expected you don't support religious freedom

Zulu

proper order i say!

MorningStar

The Atheist wrote:

Ahh but science is self-correcting! The first thing science does with a new theory is to attempt disprove it.

So is religion as mentioned you no longer can buy redemption. The religions are really older than modern science and their beliefs. Man seems to need religion but not scientific understanding. Every tribe has a religion.

Mr.Nice Guy

MorningStar wrote:

Connect the dots.

I connected the dots and saw you sharply changing the subject.

MorningStar wrote:

Many muslims don't call it a religion and Hubbard says his is not a religion. Many people don't call their religion a religion but a way of life is the point! That negates him saying it is not a religion

LOL. Hubbard also stated: "Writing for a penny a word is ridiculous. If a man really wants to make a million dollars, the best way would be to start his own religion"

Unless you can find Mohammed saying something similar, this negates your own point.

MorningStar wrote:

Go back and look at what I quoted and you say "Hubbard founded this religion for one reason - money" That's you calling it a religion.

That was me referring to your views although to be fair, quotation marks should have put around religion. Then again I would have thought the basic crux of my argument - that Scientology is not a religion - would suffice but there you go...

MorningStar wrote:

Try to stay focused on what is being said and what you are saying. You might understand now why I wouldn't consider your opinion of what is and is not a religion very highly.

LOL. I understand that you're struggling here in this argument and that you want out. In fairness, I sympathise seeing as your argument is that Scientology is a religion...even though Scientology's founder said it wasn't. That puts you in quite a bind eh?

MorningStar wrote:

I don't think I know the key to life so I am not going to riddicule other people who find a way to make sense of it all. What makes you think it is acceptable to riddcule another persons belief?

It;s very easy to ridicule something when the entire premise behind t is ridiculous.

MorningStar wrote:

Is it your years studying scripture?

No, I ridicule Scientology based on this:

Enter the Xenu leaflet. The Xenu leaflet reveals the switch part of the bait-and-switch fraud. It lets people know in advance the trick that is going to be pulled on them about five years and $30,000 later. It lets people know before they get into the cult while they have their critical reasoning faculties intact.

The Xenu leaflet tells in some detail the story the big secret that is in the OT III level. It tells of the alien galactic ruler Xenu who was in charge of Earth and 75 other planets in this part of the galaxy some 75 million years ago and how he cured overpopulation by paralysing the people of the other planets, flying them to Earth in DC-8 space planes, arranging them round a volcano to murder them with H bombs. Not done with that these souls of these murdered people were gathered up and boxed, taken to cinemas and shown films for several days. The end result being that the souls clustered together and now inhabit people in their thousands. And of course they must be removed at huge expense.

The Xenu story, when read in detail, betrays the total stupidity of the Scientology religion and reveals it for the fraud that it is. In towns where the cult of Scientology is hoping to create a stronghold, the Xenu leaflet totally destroys any credibility the cult may have acquired. If enough of the Xenu leaflets can be put into distribution then the townsfolk will realise that they have an insane and criminal organisation within their midst. They will in turn copy the leaflet and give it to others and within six months or so the cult will be starved of new recruits and people buying services from them. The Xenu leaflet reveals the truth and Scientology cannot exist in the presence of the truth. The Xenu leaflet exposes Scientology for what it is and hence destroys it.

The leaflet has another purpose too in inoculating a person against any future threat of the cult. Once a person has read that they are virtually immune to the Scientology cult for the rest of their lives. Nobody in their right mind would join the cult if they knew the contents of the Xenu leaflet.

MorningStar

fade wrote:

exactly, people can worship a bllody shepards pie for all i care, but when i find something utterly and absolutely ridiculous ill rip the piss out of them.
scientology is nonsense, pure and utter.

oh and add creationism to that list of things to mock

So what is your faith system based on? How well do you know it?

How much have you actually researched on scientology or evolution?

What about the holes in evolution? You are taking a leap of faith to believe it, it's only a theory that they have not proved for the full development of life.

Hobbes

stevenmu wrote:

As far as I'm aware scientologists don't try to push their religion on anybody.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.....

*deep breath*

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....

Get real. Not realising who they were I bought the dianetics book (which really isn't the best tbh) they proceeded to pester the sh!t out of me for nearly a year to join the cult before they finally got the hint to leave me the fuk alone.

xtrac

MorningStar wrote:

Sure why not throw race in there or country of origin? Gangus Khan even understood religious respect is essential. To allow religious freedom you have to also protect them from predjudice and riddcule. Do you really think religious jokes are all harmless? Jokes about race aren't all racist. If you don't think respect is expected you don't support religious freedom

Ok, I see a fundamental difference here, race and coutry of origin you cant actually change, its intrinsic to who you are as an entity. Belief on the other hand can be changed as quick as the wind turns, its no different to thinking, and as we all know, thinking can be flawed/wrong. Are you saying I should not be allowed to ridicule the belief that the sun revolves around the earth?

So, whereas I'm not taking the piss out of actual people, I am taking the piss out of their beliefs, which is my right in asmuch right as they have to believe in whatever they want.

Its the whole business of being able to choose what you believe in is what makes it my right to ridicule that belief, as opposed to ridicule something that is intrinsic to a person, i.e. race/country of origin.

Thats why you cant throw race or county of origin into this argument.

-Roy

MorningStar

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

It;s very easy to ridicule something when the entire premise behind t is ridiculous.

No, I ridicule Scientology based on this:

First off I don't what the belief is I think it is worthy of protection by being somebody else's faith.

You want to riddicule a religion based on a disgruntaled ex-member and a leaflet he created. Unless you read the scientology stuff too it's not going to be a balanced view.

You could do the same with any religion. Bloke builds a boat and saves all the animals without any inbredding problems. Man is basically formed from incest. A speaking snake! A 13 year old virgin having a child who is the son of God.
Poor Farmer find 2 magic plates and decodes them to reveal the word of God!
Etc...

Dades

Sorry MorningStar - everyone is quoting you!

MorningStar wrote:

So is religion as mentioned you no longer can buy redemption. The religions are really older than modern science and their beliefs. Man seems to need religion but not scientific understanding. Every tribe has a religion.

Every sheep needs a shepherd!

I may be an atheist but I respect other people's religious beliefs. My only point was to say that Scientology as I know it, doesn't fit into my definition of religion as I see it. It's simply a thinly disguised, corrupt business.

xtrac

MorningStar wrote:

What about the holes in evolution? You are taking a leap of faith to believe it, it's only a theory that they have not proved for the full development of life.

There is a LOT of evidence to support the theory of evolution. Will you accept it when they do prove it for the full development on life?

What is your alternative to the theory of evolution? and do you any supporting proof to back it up?

-Roy

stevenmu

monkeyfudge wrote:

They try to indoctrinate people walking down the street into their religion under the pretense of a free personality test... that's pretty damn pushy if you ask me.

The Athiest wrote:

Okay, for a mod you're a bit out of the loop!

Hobbes wrote:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.....

*deep breath*

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....

Get real. Not realising who they were I bought the dianetics book (which really isn't the best tbh) they proceeded to pester the sh!t out of me for nearly a year to join the cult before they finally got the hint to leave me the fuk alone.

As far as I'm concerned that's the equivelent of saying a company tries to push it's product on people by advertising. Many companies use similar, or even 'pushier' techniques. I've been offered the free personality tests, I've just said "no thanks" and walked away, just like I do with chuggers or those market research people. I've had people call to the house (altough they were probably Jehovas), I've just said "no thanks" and closed the door, just like I do with that polish girl who keeps calling trying to sell photos or paintings or something. I've had spam in my inbox, I've just deleted it and moved on to the next message, without feeling any more pushed into converting than I do to buy viagra or get an 'enlargement'.

In terms of not pushing their religion, scientologists aren't up there with the likes of Buddhists and some others, but they're light years ahead of many of the major religions.

MorningStar

xtrac wrote:

So, whereas I'm not taking the piss out of actual people, I am taking the piss out of their beliefs, which is my right in asmuch right as they have to believe in whatever they want.

Its the whole business of being able to choose what you believe in is what makes it my right to ridicule that belief, as opposed to ridicule something that is intrinsic to a person, i.e. race/country of origin.

Thats why you cant throw race or county of origin into this argument.

-Roy

You see this is where you are wrong. Your upbringing may actually prevent you from being able to relate to another religious belief. In basic simplist terms you generally don't choose your belif and moral view. You can develop it but essentially most people stick with the basics of the views they are brought up in.
To insult a religions is extremly closely connected to insulting race. If you want to say everybody has choice you miss the power and unity of religion. My father was engaged to a woman prior to my mother but as she was not Catholic there was additional pressure on their relationship. Religion is connected to race and country. Why are people really upset about the entry of Turkey? There is a lot of talk about religion.
You can't seperate religion from race or country and it is actually more offensive to riddicule somebodies faith and very guide to live their life.

Mr.Nice Guy

MorningStar wrote:

First off I don't what the belief is I think it is worthy of protection by being somebody else's faith.

But it's not a faith, it's a wild story concocted by Hubbard wo sought to get rich and who did so.

MorningStar wrote:

You want to riddicule a religion based on a disgruntaled ex-member and a leaflet he created. Unless you read the scientology stuff too it's not going to be a balanced view.

The information in the leaflet is accurate. You don't trust that source? Do you trust Wikipedia? Have a read of this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenu

MorningStar wrote:

You could do the same with any religion. Bloke builds a boat and saves all the animals without any inbredding problems. Man is basically formed from incest. A speaking snake! A 13 year old virgin having a child who is the son of God.

Poor Farmer find 2 magic plates and decodes them to reveal the word of God!
Etc...

But unless your argument is that Christianity was orchestrated to make money then this argument is irrelevant to the debate.

MorningStar, could you comment on this piece in my last post which you seem to have forgotten about (ahem):

Me wrote:

LOL. Hubbard also stated: "Writing for a penny a word is ridiculous. If a man really wants to make a million dollars, the best way would be to start his own religion"

Unless you can find Mohammed saying something similar, this negates your own point.

I await your response. I'd also like to hear how you justify calling Scientology a religion when Hubbard, Scientology's founder, declared it was NOT a religion? Answers would be appreciated.

MorningStar

xtrac wrote:

There is a LOT of evidence to support the theory of evolution. Will you accept it when they do prove it for the full development on life?

What is your alternative to the theory of evolution? and do you any supporting proof to back it up?

-Roy

THe theory isn't complete, there are huge gaps and it is a matter of faith. If you think it is all solid you are actually wrong. It's also a leap of faith is all I am pointing out. The fill in gaps by saying things like we don't know why but then this happens. It's all faith

xtrac

MorningStar wrote:

You see this is where you are wrong. Your upbringing may actually prevent you from being able to relate to another religious belief. In basic simplist terms you generally don't choose your belif and moral view. You can develop it but essentially most people stick with the basics of the views they are brought up in.
To insult a religions is extremly closely connected to insulting race. If you want to say everybody has choice you miss the power and unity of religion. My father was engaged to a woman prior to my mother but as she was not Catholic there was additional pressure on their relationship. Religion is connected to race and country. Why are people really upset about the entry of Turkey? There is a lot of talk about religion.
You can't seperate religion from race or country and it is actually more offensive to riddicule somebodies faith and very guide to live their life.

Ok, in case I haven't been clear. I respect peoples right to believe in anything they want. I also repsect my right to citicise/ridicule peoples beliefs, or what they think. Can I make this any clearer? Or do you want to take away my right to do this?

Unlike you, I have no trouble seperating peoples beliefs from their race or country of origin, as for the reasons why I can do this, you can read my older posts.

-Roy

Hobbes

stevenmu wrote:

As far as I'm concerned that's the equivelent of saying a company tries to push it's product on people by advertising. Many companies use similar, or even 'pushier' techniques.

What sending me a mail every week? If they had my phone number I'd say odds on they would harrass the fuk out of me more.

I've just said "no thanks" and walked away,

Good for you. Doesn't mean everyone else will.

Here was my run in with them..
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=177167&#post177167

Flashling

Oh, and sorry to butt in, but the Catholic Church recently released a pamphlet saying the the bible was NOT to be taken literally. If anyone can find a link to it.....:)

xtrac

MorningStar wrote:

THe theory isn't complete, there are huge gaps and it is a matter of faith. If you think it is all solid you are actually wrong. It's also a leap of faith is all I am pointing out. The fill in gaps by saying things like we don't know why but then this happens. It's all faith

I see what your saying here and where you are trying to go with it. Again, what is your alternative to Evolution?

Nobody can really prove anything anyway. Except, of course, in mathematics.

Science does not require absolute proof, otherwise science textbooks would be empty. Science works by use of the scientific method: explanations are found, and tests made to tell which ones are correct. Evolution has passed thousands of tests.

Few people are aware, for instance, that Darwin's original hypothesis predicted the existence of genetic information. As said before, even if the theory is not correct in every detail, it is very close to the truth.

That was taken from this page http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-god.html

So I would like to see your alternative and somewhere I can see the extent of the scientific method applied to it.

-Roy

stevenmu

Hobbes wrote:

What sending me a mail every week? If they had my phone number I'd say odds on they would harrass the fuk out of me more.
...
...
Here was my run in with them..
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=177167&#post177167

I guess maybe we have different views on the definition of 'pushing religion'. Your experiences with scientologists may have been irritating but you could still walk away any time you liked, and in a way giving them your address was pretty much okaying them to send you junk mail. To me 'pushing religion' needs to be a little pushier than that, either by forcing people to convert, or forcing their beliefs to interefere with your life, such as no alcohol sales on good friday or the current cancer drug/contraception controversy. When I was younger I was hit on several occasions by supposed 'catholics' for not believing in their god, and much worse has happened to countless people down through the ages, and still does today.

That's what I'd think of as pushing religion, and I've never heard of scientologists being guilty of that, from what I've seen they just tell people what they think and why, it may be persuasive or even plain deceptive, but for me that doesn't cross the line into pushing religion.

tuxy

Flashling wrote:

Oh, and sorry to butt in, but the Catholic Church recently released a pamphlet saying the the bible was NOT to be taken literally. If anyone can find a link to it.....:)

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-1811332,00.html

nobodythere

The Atheist wrote:

I walk past that place several times a week, each time hoping and hoping someone will ask me in for a free cup of tea. I think they are armed with Skeptometers.

I've even read up on Scientology to be ready for the occasion!

I think they actually target the weak. According to a religion class in school, they get on buses that bring people to college to target weak homesick first years who don't have any friends.

What I'm forced to wonder is, does she not have any friends or family that worry about her welfare with regards to scientology? What do they think about all of this cult-joining stuff? (I will admit ignorance to scientology beyond rumours and their lawyers suing google but it seems fairly shifty)

larryone

MorningStar wrote:

THe theory isn't complete, there are huge gaps and it is a matter of faith. If you think it is all solid you are actually wrong. It's also a leap of faith is all I am pointing out. The fill in gaps by saying things like we don't know why but then this happens. It's all faith

Gravity is also a theory with many gaps...

nesf

larryone wrote:

Gravity is also a theory with many gaps...

Oih that's uncalled for! There was no need to drag poor gravity into this!

arbeitsscheuer

Ah Gravity knows what to expect. It always gets a hard time in arguments of this nature...

jank

Its all a load of made up media bollox at the end of the day.

Hobbes

stevenmu wrote:

I guess maybe we have different views on the definition of 'pushing religion'. Your experiences with scientologists may have been irritating but you could still walk away any time you liked, and in a way giving them your address was pretty much okaying them to send you junk mail.

First up (from reading thier book) it wasn't a case of just walking away. There are tactics used to pull people into the cult. Its actually documented in the very first book you get.

I did walk away after the second time. It didn't stop them sending me letters (hand written, they started to print the shop name on the letter so I could just bin them without reading after a while). I didn't give my address to be spammed they just asked for it when buying the book and being the age I was didn't think anything of it.

That's what I'd think of as pushing religion, and I've never heard of scientologists being guilty of that

They don't start on you until they get you in for a free personality test or a love bomb session or water diet crap. There are reported instances in Ireland of harrassment of people who have tried to walk away.

They are not a religon. They are a cult at worst, a shower of total loons at best. Xenu story (which they have confirmed) gives you a good idea of the nutjobs in it.

larryone

I was thinking to myself oneday "Why dont I start a con-artist society" Then I thought about it some more, and thought about possible ways of doing it out in the open, in such a way that everyone would have to accept it as my new "way of life". If I could just con enough people out of all their money, then I could protect myself by sueing everyone who says that mine is not a real spiritual philosophy. Fantastic! Start drawing on peoples insecurities, get them to pay vast ammounts of money to my new Church, wow! My philosophy of greed knows no bounds. I shall "enlighten" them all. (well, I'll at least enlighten their bank accounts)

Aah cack. Some bloke called Lafayette already bet me to it.
Well, looks like I'm going to have to find some other excuse than "religious freedom" to crookedly exploit and extort the masses.

Capt'n Midnight

But you gotta love the way they use copyright laws to stop people quoting them.

And yer man spent the last few years on a ship for legal reasons. Mainly cos it was out of most jusristrictions.

larryone

Naah, he lived on the boat when he was in his 50's. He died in his 70's...

Le Rack

That article is fukkin rediculous!