Newbie - Help Getting Started

Meclor

Hi

I was wondering if anyone here could give me some help or point me in the right direction.

I've been interested in target shooting for a while now, although the only shooting I have done up until now, is occasional visits to a range in the US when I'm there on business. Mainly pistol shooting on 25m range with 9mm, .40, or 357 revolver hitting paper targets

I'd love to be able to do it in Ireland, but I always thought it was kind of a closed shop, and that shotguns where the only choice, and for those you needed to be in the farming/veterinary industry.

Now I find people are here using all kinds. Obviously now, I realize I’m not very well informed.

I'm down in Riverstick in Cork, and was hoping there was a range in Cork. I believe there is one in Fermoy and Kinsale. Kinsale would be a good option since it’s around the corner from me.

But before I head down there and make a spage out of myself, I wonder could someone tell me what to expect.

Can I rent equipment down at the range? if so, what types. I'm mainly interested in pistols. Hopefully I'll gradute to rifles when i get into it properly

Do I need membership? Costs etc.

Do I have to meet some kind of criteria to be a member? Be a land owner, be recommended by a member, get Garda approval etc.

Do I need to pass a range safety course?

What type of equipment will be available to use.

Basically a heads up would be great. Don't want to head down thinking I can pick a gun from the glass display (hear gimme a go of the 357 magnum) only to be told .22 and under are all that’s there, and we don't like to cut of your gib so feck off.

I've enjoyed the few times I've been shooting, and would love the chance to improve my accuracy and knowledge. But im fearful of the closed shop nature of in it Ireland, at least thats how i perceive it knowing as little as i do. I'm sure its not as easy as a walk in process like in the US

Any help that would get me going would be great, I don't own any equipment and probably wont even think about that for years, unless of course there is not other option as far a renting goes. But as i've seen from recent posts here is not an easy process by any means. My wife would probably flip out anyway.

Thanks in Advance
Mec

rrpc

Ok first thing is: renting is not an option under the firearms acts here unless something has changed that I haven't noticed. You are only authorised to own and use a firearm if you have a certificate for that firearm. Clubs usually have a certain number of club guns that can be used by members providing the club has an authorisation from the Gardai. DURC (Trinity) have a set up like this.

Informally clubs may also allow members fire other members' firearms providing (obviously) the owner does not mind, though most clubs would prefer if the member also has a firearms certificate for the same sort of firearm.

It looks like if you want to fire a pistol, you may have to buy your own, and to do that you will have to join a club. I would suggest that you visit one or more of the clubs in your area and have a chat with the people there. Fermoy Rifle Club has a web page at www.fermoyrifleclub.com and all the contact info is there.

Meclor

thanks for the info.

I take it from that then, like you said my first port of call should be to get membership to a club.

however unless the club has house guns. (which I guess many of them should) I will need to purchase my own.

I've read over many of the posts here relating to getting a licence, so I think I understand the requirements and the sometimes lenghty process involved.

Its kind of a shame really, right now I would like see myself a more of a casual shooter, I'm not sure I want to have the responsiblty of having a gun in my home while I'm still relativley inexperienced.

To go down the ownership route:
I have a monitierd alarm system in my home already, and I'm sure I could get myself a good regulation (what ever that is ) storage safe put in, in a few months also.

Then correct me if im wrong. I need to go to a firearms dealer and get a certificate detailing the gun I am interested in. Present that along with all the other documentation to the local FO at the Garda station. Keep ringing them, Get on to the Super and meet him if possible. and then wait.

if approved I can then purchase the gun and away I go?

Does that all sound about right. albeit a little simplified.

rrpc

Meclor wrote:

however unless the club has house guns. (which I guess many of them should) I will need to purchase my own.

Actually, many of them should not!. A whole heap of problems face a club that wants to keep club guns. Secure storage, transport to and from range (remember pretty much all ranges in this country are unoccupied most of the time, are in out of the way places, have at best temporary or insecure buildings and consequently are not suitable places to store firearms). Furthermore, to get a club authorisation, at least one member must have sufficient secure storage for a quantity of firearms at a reasonable distance from the range and be prepared to transport them to the range at short notice to allow them to be used. Otherwise, if they are some distance from the range, a removal order is required from the Garda station where he resides to take them to another district and a subsequent removal order to take them back home again.

I've read over many of the posts here relating to getting a licence, so I think I understand the requirements and the sometimes lenghty process involved. Its kind of a shame really, right now I would like see myself a more of a casual shooter, I'm not sure I want to have the responsiblty of having a gun in my home while I'm still relativley inexperienced.

That's why I am suggesting you talk to your local clubs first. Take it step by step. Clubs have to be careful who they admit as members, as local Gardai usually rely on the clubs to ensure that no 'nutters' get access to firearms. If one does, the clubs reputation is in tatters, and any recommendations they give to the Gardai with license applications will be worthless. A club with a good relationship with their local Garda Station usually find that their members have no problems getting licenses.

To go down the ownership route:

Don't think about this yet. Get yourself a club membership first and take it from there.

Meclor

Thanks again rrpc for the info.

I believe I have a much clearer idea now. Over to the club it is then. I'll try to drop to the club in fermoy when I get a chance over the next few weeks and have a chat with the people down there. I'll have stop my eye twitching while I’m there I guess (kidding, seriously kidding)

Like I mentioned originally my eyes have been fairly closed to the scene in Ireland, So what do I as a member of the club that can't technically do anything. They'd hardly make we sweep up and muck out. Would they?. Are there are events, competitions and courses on a regular-ish basis, to keep interests up while I’m getting things sorted out.

Obviously like any club or job for that matter you’ll need to fit in, and need to be able to get along with everyone and have a genuine common interest.
But what else do the clubs look for in a member.

I must sound really thick from your perspective with some of these questions,
but I've always been interested in shooting, the skill and the mechanics involved but I've never thought it was really possible/feasible in Ireland until i found this board.


thanks

Rew

Where are you based Meclor? Sombody should be able to point you towards you local club.

Meclor

Rew : I'm in Riverstick in Cork. I thought there was a club in Kinsale but I haven't been able to find any info about it. I must be mistaken.

rrpc mentioned one in Fermoy, "The Fermoy Rifle Club". It a long enough drive to there, but its not too bad about 40 mintues away.

Rew

I have to drive about that to my local club, you should drop over to them one of the days for a look. Only the lucky few are cloiser then that to thier clubs

Rovi

Hi Meclor, welcome!




I'm afraid that by Irish standards, 40 minutes isn't a bad commute to a rifle range

You've gotten lots of good info so far, and I'll leave it to you to decide where to file this-
I'd suggest that as a 'new' shooter, you'll get it much easier to licence a long gun of some sort, either a shotgun or a .22 rifle. AFAIK, no-one has licenced a pistol who doesn't already have an established (shooting!) track record with the Gardai. Anyone know any different?
To date (again, AFAIK), the Superintendents have been very cautious about licencing pistols, and I'd think that someone appearing out of the blue would have a tough job ahead of them.
Are you known to your local Gardai at all (in a good way! )?

Unless you're specifically disbarred from gun ownership, getting a shotgun licence isn't a terrible onerous exercise, and a .22 rifle isn't too much more difficult.
Club membership would be a definite plus, but bear in mind that according to current legislation, no-one is supposed to use any gun for which they are not licenced. The reality at a range is a bit more practical than that of course.
I know the Midland range have/had rental .22 rifles, but I have no idea if Fermoy do.

Make contact with Fermoy and see what they have to say, but give a bit of thought to getting a long gun of your own too.
Everyone NEEDS a .22 rifle anyway

.

civdef

Just to echo Rovi's post, applying for a pistol as a first licence may ring alarm bells among the law enforcement types when you go to visit.

There will be a certain element (and I'm by now means assigning the original poster to this group btw) who will take the view that all they're interested in is large calibre pistols, and none of the more traditional firearm types. In these cases, one might legitemately ask perhaps why they've only taken an interest in getting involved in the sport lately. You don't want to get lumped in with this group.

jaycee

bear in mind that according to current legislation, no-one is supposed to use any gun for which they are not licenced. The reality at a range is a bit more practical than that of course.

Actually .. <ahem.>!

Extract from the firearms act.

Amendment of section 2 of Principal Act. (1964 Amendments)
15.—Section 2 of the Principal Act is hereby amended by—

(b) the insertion after subsection (3) of the following subsection:

" (4) This section shall not apply to any of the following cases and such cases are accordingly excepted from this section, that is to say:


(d) the possession, use or carriage of a firearm or ammunition by a member of a rifle club or other gun club that stands authorised under this section while engaged as such member in a competition or target practice at a range or other place that stands authorised under this section,

So...

As long as both parties are members of an approved club and engaged in either compitition or target practice ...at a range.... it is quite legal to use another's firearm even If one dosen't hold a licence for it.

Rovi

jaycee wrote:

Actually .. <ahem.>!

Smartass!

Does this apply to all the Club member's guns, or do they have to be listed on the Club authorisation?

.

rrpc

jaycee wrote:

Actually .. <ahem.>!...snippage...
or other gun club that stands authorised under this section

Ahem yourself

rrpc wrote:

Clubs usually have a certain number of club guns that can be used by members providing the club has an authorisation from the Gardai

jaycee

Does this apply to all the Club member's guns, or do they have to be listed on the Club authorisation?

It dosen't mention "Guns on a club authorisation"

In plain english ,
It appears to mean that If you and the other person involved are members of a "Proper" (Approved) club .. Then , while using each others guns , while involved in either target practice or a competition at an "Approved" range , you are "accordingly excepted " from the usual requirement.. I.E.. that you hold a current firearms cert for that firearm.

This strikes me as a truly sensible piece of Law.. shockingly simple and recognising the responsible , safe and enjoyable use of firearms that takes place at shooting clubs.

rrpc

jaycee wrote:

It doesn't mention "Guns on a club authorisation"

No it doesn't, but that's what it means. Ask Sparks if you don't believe my interpretation. There's no such thing as a 'Proper' (approved) club, but there is such a thing as a club authorisation which is issued by the local Super. The phrase is "a rifle club or other gun club that stands authorised under this section" The only thing that a club can be authorised for under that section is to hold firearms.

jaycee

Ahem yourself
Quote:
Originally Posted by rrpc
Clubs usually have a certain number of club guns that can be used by members providing the club has an authorisation from the Gardai

Retract that "Ahem" right now......

No that's not quite the same thing ..
The issue of "Club Guns" (Guns purchased and owned by the club as an entity in it's own right) is an entirely different thing .

They are not owned (As in the private property of a specific member) by a private party , but rather as "Club equipment" , for the benefit of the members or visitors to the club.

That does require a special authorisation from the Gardai..

The section of the Act I pointed out applies to private members firearms.

jaycee

Originally Posted by jaycee
It doesn't mention "Guns on a club authorisation"

No it doesn't, but that's what it means.

Says who.. ?
No ..seriously .. I'm trying to make a point,
There are enough things in black and white we have to abide by without
suffering things that aren't written down anywhere.

Isn't that the whole crux of our argument re: Secure storage ..etc..
The fact that it is worded in a way that can be used against us.

Now we have a situation where it dosen't say something ..yet we still agree to roll over and go along with it.. I think not.!
Surely if the wording matters in one case ..it matters in every case.
So I tend towards the view that if it dosen't say so..it ain't so.

Ask Sparks if you don't believe my interpretation.

It's not a question of my faith in your interpretation or Spark's for that matter
it's about what is current Irish law.

rrpc

jaycee wrote:

Retract that "Ahem" right now......

No that's not quite the same thing ..
The issue of "Club Guns" (Guns purchased and owned by the club as an entity in it's own right) is an entirely different thing .

They are not owned (As in the private property of a specific member) by a private party , but rather as "Club equipment" , for the benefit of the members or visitors to the club.

That does require a special authorisation from the Gardai..

The section of the Act I pointed out applies to private members firearms.

No it doesn't, sigh... I'm going to have to quote the 1925 act now

Subject to the exceptions from this section hereinafter mentioned, it shall not be lawful for any person after the commencement of this Act to have in his possession, use, or carry any firearm or ammunition save in so far as such possession, use, or carriage is authorised by a firearm certificate granted under this Act and for the time being in force.

and then the exception in 1964..

d) the possession, use or carriage of a firearm or ammunition by a member of a rifle club or other gun club that stands authorised under this section while engaged as such member in a competition or target practice at a range or other place that stands authorised under this section

There is no mention of the use of other members firearms either in the principal act or in the amendments. In fact the other amendments refer to firearms dealers assistants, theatrical company members etc. who would be transporting or using the firearm belonging to the originally authorised company or dealer, in exactly the same way as a club member could use a club gun. In any event how could you police the situation you envisage, as anybody could claim to be a member of "insert fictitious name of club here" and carry on regardless.

rrpc

And just in case you are still in any doubt, the 1964 act goes on to give details of the authorisations granted, their conditions and specifically mentions subsection (d)

b) A Superintendent shall not grant an authorisation under this section unless he is satisfied having regard to all the circumstances (including the provision made or to be made for the storage of the firearms and ammunition to which the authorisation (if granted) would relate and the supervision of their use) that the possession, use or carriage, as the case may be, of firearms or ammunition in pursuance of the authorisation will not endanger the public safety or the peace.
(c) Where it is proposed to grant an authorisation under this section in respect of a rifle or other gun club or a range or other place referred to in paragraph (d) of subsection 4 of this section, the authorisation shall be granted to an officer of the club nominated by the club or to the person in charge of the range or other place as the case may be, and where there is a contravention of a condition imposed in relation to the grant of such an authorisation and the contravention is proved to have been committed with the consent or approval of or to have been facilitated by any neglect on the part of the person to whom the authorisation is granted, that person shall be guilty of an offence under this Act.

It can't be any clearer than that. It specifically defines the authorisations and the conditions attaching to them. I have direct experience of these as we hold one in Rathdrum. DURC also have one, and that's how all their members (who change every year) can shoot at competitions without a firearms cert.

jaycee

I see what your saying ..

And I am aware of the original 1925 ACT and you are correct it is the 1964 revision that we are discussing , so we're on the same page as it were..

and then the exception in 1964..
Quote:
d) the possession, use or carriage of a firearm or ammunition by a member of a rifle club or other gun club that stands authorised under this section while engaged as such member in a competition or target practice at a range or other place that stands authorised under this section

It is said that in many things the Devil is in the details and this is where our view of things diverge..

There is no mention of the use of other members firearms either in the principal act or in the amendments.

Quite True .. I was paraphrasing and the phrase "Other members firearms " dosen't exist as such.

However .. It also dosen't exclude the use of other members firearms.
If you look at the wording the approval refers to a rifle club or other gun club that stands authorised under this section now..that's important..!

Prior to that it mentions .. the possession, use or carriage of a firearm or ammunition by a member It dosen't say which firearm , it dosent specify club firearms , it dosen't specify which member .

It can therefore be reasonably argued that it applies to both ANY member and ANY firearm .

b) A Superintendent shall not grant an authorisation under this section unless he is satisfied having regard to all the circumstances (including the provision made or to be made for the storage of the firearms and ammunition to which the authorisation (if granted) would relate and the supervision of their use) that the possession, use or carriage, as the case may be, of firearms or ammunition in pursuance of the authorisation will not endanger the public safety or the peace.

If you are already the holder of a firearms cert this bit is covered and is the very "Secure storage " issue that I mentioned earlier. Because presumeably if one didn't meet these standards , one wouldn't be issued a licence in the first place . (As I said earlier the issue of "Club guns" is different .)

I have direct experience of these as we hold one in Rathdrum. DURC also have one, and that's how all their members (who change every year) can shoot at competitions without a firearms cert.

I am aware of the excellent work done by Rathdrum and DURC ..but these are largely not holders of firearms licences.

I am speaking about cert holders who are club members of an approved range.

rrpc

jaycee wrote:

I see what your saying ..
And I am aware of the original 1925 ACT and you are correct it is the 1964 revision that we are discussing , so we're on the same page as it were..

Yippee!, though if we keep this up we'll be on the next page Oh damn.. we are!

However .. It also dosen't exclude the use of other members firearms.
If you look at the wording the approval refers to a rifle club or other gun club that stands authorised under this section now..that's important..!

It surely is... but not for the reasons you give... The 'authorised under this section' bit refers to later in the section which I quoted.

Prior to that it mentions .. the possession, use or carriage of a firearm or ammunition by a member It dosen't say which firearm , it dosent specify club firearms , it dosen't specify which member .

It does refer to which firearm. It refers to "a club authorised under this section" and later goes on to define what that authorisation is, specifically mentioning club officers, firearms, secure storage etc. Now the secure storage bit is a giveaway since we have had that one clearly defined in court as not referring to individuals who hold firearms certs.

It can therefore be reasonably argued that it applies to both ANY member and ANY firearm .

No it can't (not reasonably anyway) Look, read through all the exceptions in the 1964 amendments, I'm not going to quote them here or we'll definitely be on the next page!, but you can see the general thrust of the amendments was to cover such situations of unlicensed individuals using or carrying firearms whilst carrying out the functions of a body which was in itself licensed or authorised.

If you are already the holder of a firearms cert this bit is covered and is the very "Secure storage " issue that I mentioned earlier. Because presumeably if one didn't meet these standards , one wouldn't be issued a licence in the first place . (As I said earlier the issue of "Club guns" is different .)

That wasn't the point, as secure storage for individuals is not part of the act, and this was upheld in court. The very mention of it in this section points to the fact that individuals are not referred to in this amendment. It also refers to supervision, which would go to the heart of a club authorisation, as the club is then in the position of making sure that a fit person is using the firearm rather than the licensing authority.

rrpc

jaycee wrote:

If you are already the holder of a firearms cert this bit is covered and is the very "Secure storage " issue that I mentioned earlier. Because presumeably if one didn't meet these standards , one wouldn't be issued a licence in the first place . (As I said earlier the issue of "Club guns" is different .)

Actually, I was looking too hard at the trees to see the wood The major amendment in the firearms act 1964, was the creation of the 'authorisation' for the first time. In the 1925 act, the only instrument was a firearms certificate. Here's the relevant section

(5) (a) The Superintendent of any district may authorise in writing the possession, use or carriage of firearms or ammunition in that district in any of the circumstances specified in paragraphs (d), (e), (f), (g) or (h) of subsection (4) of this section during such period, not exceeding one year, as may be specified in the authorisation.

This is what you refer to as 'Club guns'. This situation did not exist prior to 1964 as everybody had to have a cert including clubs (which presumably they didn't as it would have been impossible under the 1925 act) The nice bit for clubs after the 1964 act is that the authorisation in writing does not cost a penny!

Sparks

Oomph. I dunno rrpc. I know in DURC's case, it's definitely done via the authorisation route, and I doubt that any other arrangement was actually thought of at the time, but JC does have a valid point; the wording is "the possession, use or carriage of a firearm or ammunition by a member". You probably could make a reasonable argument along those lines (reasonable having a different definition for barristers, where it seems to mean "strictly speaking, possible, if you split hairs and are horrendously nit-picking about it" ).

Problem is, if you tested it, you'd probably have to do so in a court, and that's a bit on the long-winded, tedious and expensive side for a result that isn't really necessary - the authorisations for clubs are free and easy enough to get. They also are quite flexible; for the WTSC air pistol match last year, we just got an authorisation for the day for the named pistols and everyone could come along and shoot, with no more fuss than going to the driving range or bowling alley. Frankly, I'm constantly surprised that they're not standard for all rifle clubs, listing all firearms held by all the members (so that if anyone ever wants to try another member's firearm - with their permission - it's all covered legally.

Babble

Sticky?

rrpc

Sparks wrote:

Oomph. I dunno rrpc. I know in DURC's case, it's definitely done via the authorisation route, and I doubt that any other arrangement was actually thought of at the time, but JC does have a valid point; the wording is "the possession, use or carriage of a firearm or ammunition by a member". You probably could make a reasonable argument along those lines (reasonable having a different definition for barristers, where it seems to mean "strictly speaking, possible, if you split hairs and are horrendously nit-picking about it" ).

Yes, but you're the one doing the splitting as in the first part of (d) from the second part of (d) and subsection 4 from subsection 5. And if you remember your law, reasonable is defined as "the view of the man on the clapham omnibus"

Problem is, if you tested it, you'd probably have to do so in a court,

I wouldn't like to.

They also are quite flexible; for the WTSC air pistol match last year, we just got an authorisation for the day for the named pistols and everyone could come along and shoot, with no more fuss than going to the driving range or bowling alley. Frankly, I'm constantly surprised that they're not standard for all rifle clubs, listing all firearms held by all the members (so that if anyone ever wants to try another member's firearm - with their permission - it's all covered legally.

Absolutely. Even if the club has no club guns, this should be done with even one firearm belonging to a member if only to keep an authorisation alive and keep in contact with your local Super. A lot of Gardai don't know about them, and it can be quite difficult to persuade them of their existence. I know one of our members does not hold a firearms certificate, but instead holds an authorisation which saves him 38 euros a year.
Anyway, although sub-subsection (d) is not as specific as we would like it to be (not clearly defining which firearms it is referring to). Subsection 5 refers to (d) (e) (f) (g) and (h) and defines an authorisation, which clearly means that those exemptions are applied to authorisations. The sticky bit, is the reference to secure storage and club officers, which would make it difficult to apply the authorisations to individually held and certified firearms of members.

Sparks

Babble wrote:

Sticky?

Forget Sticky, this needs to be a leaflet. Seriously, you have to ask - how many people leaving college clubs would remain in the sport if they knew of a club where they could go and continue to shoot with as little hassle as with DURC or UCDRC (ie., don't need to invest thousands of euro right off the bat, don't need to sort out firearms licences, don't need to sort out a source for ammunition, etc, etc, etc). The "bowling alley" model of club, in other words.

After all, the last thing anyone's going to have on their postgraduation checklist is to spend three months getting licences and rifles and jackets and gloves and boots and trousers and ammunition and club membership and individual insurance! Things like jobs and rent and cars and so on tend to take center stage - and by the time they're able to commit sufficiently to get back to the sport, there's too much involved in getting into it for them to think it worth it; and we lose another shooter and a driving range or bowling alley somewhere gains another paying customer...

rrpc

Well you can add Rathdrum to that list as we have a few club rifles. Unfortunately, we do not have enough of the other equipment needed (jackets. slings, scopes, etc.) but having a few rifles does make it easier for new members to inexpensively start the game. Most of the rifles incidentally came from members, I donated my old Match 54 tothe club, as I could not find a buyer for it, and another rifle was left to the club by a deceased member. If more clubs exercised their right to have an authorisation, the equipment would follow on quite quickly, as quite a few members would be more inclined to donate their old equipment rather than try and sell it for what would be small money in any case.

On the other hand, it is a hassle for clubs, as someone needs to have secure storage nearby for a quantity of firearms and be prepared to move them or hand them out when required. The authorisation does not allow for the members to have them in their homes, only to have them en route to the range or a competition.

Meclor

Thanks for all the great help people,

not to interrupt your discussion, but just to bring it back a second to the newbie questions,

I see the reasoning behind the need to get started with a .22 rifle. If someone turns up out of the wood work and only wants to play with a Derest Eagle then eyebrows will surely be raised. I never actully considered the rifle shooting as I haven't had exposure to it. But just looking round the net there over the last day or so it looks like it could be really enjoyable.

I'll be getting myself a pair of glasses though, some of those target are nice an far away, I'll like that challenge. :eek:

I'm pretty excited now, and this board has been a great source of info.

What kind of costs am I facing from Club membership to equiment.

I'm sure rates vary, but a general idea would be good. Am I looking at a €2000 euro overall outlay, which I could manage in reasonable time. Or do I need to start breeding and pimping out my shiz-tzu and selling of the litter.

Where is good for equipment. I know there is Murray's in Cork and one or 2 others, got any recommendations?

Where can I find info on the internet about .22 rifles, stats, costs availablity etc

Meclor

Oh and one more question

How come its slightly harder to get a .22 rifle, I would have though the shot gun is a lot more lethal and dangerous.

Is range then issue? Shows how much I know eh?

Sparks

A decent single-shot .22 rifle shouldn't cost you more than a hundred quid or so Meclor (see the thread on Cheap entry points to the sport). Now a *really* good one would set you back thousands; but the BSAs are more than good enough to shoot better than you will for the first while at least. A glove, sling and jacket, even new, shouldn't come to more than €150 or so if you don't buy top-of-the-line (which wouldn't do you much good anyway). Don't worry about glasses to see the target - you need to be able to focus on the foresight of the rifle, which wouldn't be more than a few feet away (Of course, if you're farsighted, you may need to use glasses, but don't worry about special shooting glasses, just use your ordinary ones).

All of that gear would let you compete in pretty much any of the .22 disciplines going at the moment, with the exception of gallery rifle - there something like a ruger 10/22 would be a better rifle, and again, you're looking at around the hundred euro mark for a basic model.

Sparks

As to club membership, it varies quite a lot! I've been hearing averages of a few hundred per year for smallbore clubs in Dublin/Wicklow, but with some which charge far more and others who charge less - couldn't tell you what the fees were like for Cork though.