Newbie - Help Getting Started

rrpc

Meclor wrote:

Thanks for all the great help people,

not to interrupt your discussion, but just to bring it back a second to the newbie questions,

Apologies for hijacking your thread, this sometimes happens when a new issue is brought up.

I see the reasoning behind the need to get started with a .22 rifle. If someone turns up out of the wood work and only wants to play with a Derest Eagle then eyebrows will surely be raised. I never actully considered the rifle shooting as I haven't had exposure to it. But just looking round the net there over the last day or so it looks like it could be really enjoyable.

It is

I'll be getting myself a pair of glasses though, some of those target are nice an far away, I'll like that challenge. :eek:
I'm pretty excited now, and this board has been a great source of info.
What kind of costs am I facing from Club membership to equiment.

It really depends what kind of rifle shooting you want to do. There are three types (that require different rifles)

• Sporting Rifle - this discipline is shot with telescopic sights on a lightweight sport rifle and usually involves shooting paper targets or metalsilhouettes. there are a number of variations on these themes but that's the basic idea.
• Benchrest Rifle - uses a heavier rifle (more like a target rifle) with a square profile stock which is rested on a bench and shot from a sitting position using a telescopic sight on a paper target. Becoming quite popular at the moment.
• Target Rifle - This is the ultimate challenge, using aperture sights in up to three positions; prone, kneeling and standing, at 50m usually, but also at 25 yards and 100 yards. It is also the most expensive, as a new target rifle will set you back over €2000 and you will also require a spotting scope, mat, jacket, sling and depending on if you are doing the other disciplines (standing and kneeling), a kneeling roll, shooting trousers and boots. This is the ISSF/Olympic discipline you may have seen mentioned in other threads.

I'm sure rates vary, but a general idea would be good. Am I looking at a €2000 euro overall outlay, which I could manage in reasonable time. Or do I need to start breeding and pimping out my shiz-tzu and selling of the litter.

It really depends. You can get your hands on second-hand equipment, and this will get you started. AFAIK a s/h target rifle goes for about €500, and you may also get a jacket and glove etc. thrown in with this. I don't know what most clubs are charging these days, but most charge a one-off joining fee along with an annual sub. Rathdrum charge €300 joining and €200 annually not including insurance which is about €70 per annum.Other clubs may be more or less than this, but this is a good guide.

Where is good for equipment. I know there is Murray's in Cork and one or 2 others, got any recommendations?

I'm starting to sound like a stuck record here, but ask at your club of choice. The members will have the best experience in answering this one, and will probably have a good line on ammunition plus access to some s/h equipment

Where can I find info on the internet about .22 rifles, stats, costs availablity etc

Have a look at the NSRA site for target rifle and pistol equipment. Nice pictures and horrible prices, but you'll get the idea of what your looking for; http://www.nsra.co.uk. The sections are all in pdf files, so there'll be a bit of downloading to do.
Not sure on sporting or benchrest rifles, I haven't bought a sporting rifle in yonks, but much the same names as are used in target rifles are also good in sporting, so http://www.anschuetz-sport.com would give you a look at anschutz rifles.

Hope that gets you started, and apologies again for hijacking your thread. Incidentally, you don't need to worry about mucking out. Rifle shoting is a very clean sport

Meclor

Grand Job. Cheers for all of help

rrpc

Just one point, I know Sparks said you could get a rifle for about 100 quid, but personally I wouldn't spend that little on either a sporting rifle or target rifle. The BSA's are pretty much collectors items now, and the sights are very outdated with a terribly coarse adjustment which can drive you mad, as one click can send you to the other side of the ten ring at 25 yards. Look to spend about 500ish on a rifle, and you won't grow out of it for a while if ever. Stick to the well known makes, as parts and accessories are far easier to come by. These would be Anschutz, Walther and Feinwerkbau in target and Anschutz and Brno in sporting. (some of the sporting lads may have some others they might recommend).

Airblazer

I was thinking just like the newbie..never realised that people could own and operate these calibre firearms in ireland..it's definitely a sport i would love to take up as I used to fire a bit in the FCA (.303/Steyr/Browning/Bren) around the 1990's and were quite good at it..would anyone know of the nearest clubs to limerick..wouldn't be joining for about a year until i get my own place as i wouldn't like the idea of storing rifles/ammo in a rented place and it's probably not allowed anyway..

Umiq88

I was able to buy my .22wmr (22 with a kick better range and more accurate) for €300 and got a good scope for €50 (ebay normally costs €75)

No problem getting a licence for this at all i use it for hunting which is probably not what you want to get into but is brilliant fun i also did a bit of causal target shooting with it its a accurate rifle and i good and cheap way to get into the sport

its a cz 452-2e-zkm and the scope is a hawke 3-9x40 reflex theres a pic in the hunting photos thread along with my shotgun

Meclor

That looks like a nice one alright, and I like the price too.

Was that second hand or new? and did you get it in Ireland.

Umiq88

thats the second hand price but was in vgood condtition yes i got it in ireland they are a very popular gun i bought it in waterford but ive seen them in 2 gun shops in kilkenny i know a couple of people with them and 2 were in athy very reliable guns and very accurate great gun for the value ammo is very resonable as well

rrpc

Meclor; before you run out and buy a 22wmr, check if your local ranges allow you to shoot supersonic rounds. You can supress the muzzle crack, but not the supersonic crack and although psittacosis maintains that his rifle is accurate (which for hunting it probably is) supersonic rounds are never as accurate as subsonic target rounds. Put simply, the faster a round travels, the more it can be disturbed by wind.

Meclor

indeed,

I got a mail back from the Fermoy club this morning, so I'm goona give the chap over a ring later on to see what the situtation is.

I far off buying anything at the moment anyway. I want to get a lot more up to speed first so a few visits to the club are my first port of call.

A checklist of questions I could ask while I have him on the phone would be nice.

How much does it cost to be a member.
Are they currently open to new members.
Whats types of rifles are used on the range.
Are subsonic or supersonic rounds allowed.
etc.

Any other's questions I should ask to ensure I get all the info?

rrpc

What sort of access do members have to the range; i.e. can you go there any time, or are there set days and times.
What coaching do they provide?
Is it possible to shoot there without a current firearms cert; i.e. can you try out different disciplines before you decide which firearm to buy.
When can you visit and meet some of the members and have a look at what they do.?
That should get you to the next step, i.e a visit with some idea of what you can expect.

Meclor

again thanks for all your help.

If information was blood, you'd have been bleed dry a while back.

rrpc

You're very welcome. It's not such a big community and we do our best to encourage people into the sport. You may have the impression that it's a closed group, but it's more a case of having to be careful because of the nature of the sport we take part in.

Rovi

rrpc has mentioned the three target disciplines (Sporting, Benchrest, and Target), but don't forget that vast amounts of .22LR ammo is expended 'Plinking' and hunting too.
Plinking is informal target shooting- tin cans, pieces of fruit, etc. Provided a few basic safety rules are observed ('legitimacy' of target, backstop, ricochet potential, etc), plinking is about as much fun as you can have with a gun, particularly with a few friends to share the joy. A box of clay pigeons is a great investment for this stuff, and scrap cars also seem to hold a peculiar fascination.
Hunting may or may not appeal to you, but bear in mind that for many people (well, me anyway ), 'hunting' amounts to a nice tramp around the fields with a sophisticated stick. A rabbit or pigeon might or might not get a fright during this endeavour. Usually not. You don't actually have to 'shoot' anything.

Target and Benchrest shooting are games that can get very specialised and expensive if you get serious enough about them. Unless you KNOW that you want to get into that stuff, I'd suggest starting off with a nice sporting/hunting rifle. Budget for €300 and up for decent used guns, and if you're prepared to go to €5-600, you'll be looking at really nice used stuff, and pretty decent new guns too. Don't forget to leave a bit for a gun safe (not yet mandatory, but a good idea), a scope if you want one, a few bits and pieces of cleaning kit, and maybe a gun case or slip for transporting it.
Oh yeah, and ammo!
Such a rifle will give years of pleasure, and will hold its own at the Sporting and Benchrest disciplines if you want to give those a go. You can always upgrade or get a second rifle if you decide you want to get serious at the competitive stuff.

There are literally thousands of suitable rifles out there in dealer's gun rooms. Have a look in the yellow pages and the Irish Shooter's Digest magazine for dealers within reasonable reach of you. There are a surprising number of them out there, but they're often a bit off the beaten track or are operated as a section of another business, and might not be obvious to 'passing traffic.'
Bear in mind too, that a dealer's gun stock will often reflect his main shooting interest. Some places are more interested in shotguns and clay pigeon shooting, while others are oriented to hunting or target shooting. They can all get hold of pretty much anything you might want, but you'll find a better selection of rifles in a shop whose main interest is rifles, if you know what I mean.
The people at Fermoy will point you in the right direction on this.


ps. I'll echo rrpc's thoughts on starting off with a .22WMR. It's a grand calibre for hunting, but it won't be terribly welcome on a smallbore target range I'm afraid


.

rrpc

Rovi wrote:

rrpc has mentioned the three target disciplines (Sporting, Benchrest, and Target),

I only mentioned these disciplines, as Meclor had evinced an interest in joining a club and target shooting.

Meclor wrote:

I've been interested in target shooting for a while now, although the only shooting I have done up until now, is occasional visits to a range in the US when I'm there on business.

I've nothing against hunting and plinking per se, as that's where I started off myself. Though I'll admit that it gets a bit boring after a while (there's only so many tin cans you can 'kill' before the excitement tends to pall)

Meclor

I doubt I be getting too serious in the competetion side of things. I just want a bit of enjoyment from shooting, and I may try my hand at some minor competetion, its good way to drive to improving your shot i guess.

Its funny you mentioned plinking, I was only thinking a while ago is there much in the way of tin can shooting, I'd love put a melon on a pole a plug a few into it.

even a big orange on a rope swinging in a pendulum effect, would make for a hard target ..

jeezz im itching to go....

Rovi

rrpc wrote:

I only mentioned these disciplines, as Meclor had evinced an interest in joining a club and target shooting.

Oh I realise that, I just wanted to point out a few other shooting options outside the competitive target disciplines.

rrpc wrote:

I've nothing against hunting and plinking per se, as that's where I started off myself. Though I'll admit that it gets a bit boring after a while (there's only so many tin cans you can 'kill' before the excitement tends to pall)

I didn't mean to imply that you had anything against them, apologies if it came across that way.

.

Meclor

I was just onto the Fermoy club.

The 2 lads I was talking too couldn't have been more helpful.
Although my confidence was a bit higher, given the info I received on this board.

They have a good setup down there by the sounds of it 3 100m rifle ranges and a pistol range.

I gonna head down there this sunday to a have a look about, and if its looks like something for me and they think I'm alirght, I'll hopefully get the nod for membership.

rrpc

They are a good bunch in Fermoy, very active in national organisations and organising new disciplines. I've been down there a few times for competitions, and always enjoyed it. They're not as involved in NTSA shooting these days, so have not held any competitions there for a while, but what they do they do well. You'll be made very welcome and I'd say they won't be able to hold you back from signing up

Meclor

I'm back again with some starter questions on rifle selection

This will be my first rifle, intended for casual target & silhouette shooting and a bit of plinking thrown in.

Given that my choice is to go either with either a .22 bolt action or semi auto.
I'm not to keen on the single shot, but i know you can get single shot adapter for some guns if the need arises

I've been looking at the CZ 452 Style .22lr,

I like the look of it......is about as much I know about it, but I've read good reviews about the CZ 452 in terms of price and accuracy. Would you agree?

Also the Ruger 10/22 appears to be a very popular semi and it has many modification options. Although people I've seen mixed reviews from people saying it ain't all that, right out of the box.

I was told that semi's are slightly less accurate due to the action, but I'd be willing to sacrifice that for the option of firing off a few rounds in quick succession, when the urge over comes me. Then again there is something draws me to the bolt action cz


Does a semi as a first rifle pose a greater chance of refusal when getting a license, or does it matter?
Is a 5 round mag is the maximum allowed?
Do either of these seem like a good option for a beginner
Do you have any idea of the price of these in Ireland? I've seen good prices in england and the US but I fear the rip-off Republic prices.
What's the story with left handed guns? And are they more expensive

What is the advantage of a heavier barrel, more stable?
What is the max/min barrel lenght allowed in Ireland
Are there rules on customizing, barrels length/sytle, stock etc? I see some people have totally changed the guns to look like something else altogeher.Is that frowned upon by Guards.

Do you have the name of a few medium scopes, in and around the 150 to 200 euro mark. I won't be needing anything better for a while i reckon.

jaycee

I'd go with the CZ ,
Great rifle for the money , I've had a couple and have never seen a bad one.

5 round magazines are not the max , you can get 10 round mags for the cz,
although a single well aimed shot is better than spraying off rounds.
Some people would say that to start rifle shooting a good single shot rifle is where to start. Thats probably a little extreme but suffice it to say that you won't be left wanting with the standard 5 round mag.

A bolt action rifle is also a good place to start , the nature of the action type is more accurate as standard .

Babble

Meclor wrote:

Also the Ruger 10/22 appears to be a very popular semi and it has many modification options. Although people I've seen mixed reviews from people saying it ain't all that, right out of the box.

I was told that semi's are slightly less accurate due to the action, but I'd be willing to sacrifice that for the option of firing off a few rounds in quick succession, when the urge over comes me. Then again there is something draws me to the bolt action cz

I'd tend to agree with the 10/22 not being the most accurate out of the box but there is a mind boggling array of aftermarket stuff for it.
My current favorite shooting is to head out to a secluded gravel pit with my 10/22 and 1500 rounds of ammo and 25 round magazines and massacre some rubbish. The barrel gets almost too hot to touch. But were only shooting it at maybe 25 yards so accuracy is not a concern, for accuracy and semi autoI've got one of these on order http://www.rhinelandarms.com/ the R22

Rew

Iv shot the CZ and its a lovely rifle I was looking at one of their full bores as well.

Iv seen some lovely heavy barrled .22 semi auto 10/22's that id love to try out.

Umiq88

Meclor wrote:

I'm back again with some starter questions on rifle selection

This will be my first rifle, intended for casual target & silhouette shooting and a bit of plinking thrown in.

Given that my choice is to go either with either a .22 bolt action or semi auto.
I'm not to keen on the single shot, but i know you can get single shot adapter for some guns if the need arises

I've been looking at the CZ 452 Style .22lr,

I like the look of it......is about as much I know about it, but I've read good reviews about the CZ 452 in terms of price and accuracy. Would you agree?

Also the Ruger 10/22 appears to be a very popular semi and it has many modification options. Although people I've seen mixed reviews from people saying it ain't all that, right out of the box.

I was told that semi's are slightly less accurate due to the action, but I'd be willing to sacrifice that for the option of firing off a few rounds in quick succession, when the urge over comes me. Then again there is something draws me to the bolt action cz


Does a semi as a first rifle pose a greater chance of refusal when getting a license, or does it matter?
Is a 5 round mag is the maximum allowed?
Do either of these seem like a good option for a beginner
Do you have any idea of the price of these in Ireland? I've seen good prices in england and the US but I fear the rip-off Republic prices.
What's the story with left handed guns? And are they more expensive

What is the advantage of a heavier barrel, more stable?
What is the max/min barrel lenght allowed in Ireland
Are there rules on customizing, barrels length/sytle, stock etc? I see some people have totally changed the guns to look like something else altogeher.Is that frowned upon by Guards.

Do you have the name of a few medium scopes, in and around the 150 to 200 euro mark. I won't be needing anything better for a while i reckon.

I'll answer what i can

bolt action is more accurate and can be reloaded easy enough its will also keep your ammo prices down while its not expensive it does add up when shooting targets i tend to leave out the mag and use one at a time

cz are a great gun and great value for money if i wasnt using it for hunting id get the black stock and stainless barrel i think its the style version

no nothing about 10/22 is the round bigger than .22lr more accurate range etc??

the fact that its a .22lr means it will be dead easy to licence

10 mag magazine is the biggest

great gun for begineer because it doesnt have a flat tradjectory it makes you much more aware of the rise and drop of the bullet which will make you a much more accurate shooter when it comes to bigger bores

i paid €300 for a second hand .22wmr so expect to pay around that

left hand guns i havent seen you might have to get it imported id try it you first i know a few lefties who have no problem shootin on a right handed gun but the cz gun is so common it souldnt be a problem id try it out first

heavier barrel means that you can shoot more rounds through it without it heating also the weight gives better pointability and main cusion a bit of recoil although nothin to worry bout on a .22lr

dunno about barrel lengths but the longer the more accurate

not sure on the regulations but if your getting a silencer or whatever it has to be put on the cert if you mean adjusting the comb height or the lenght it doesnt matter (as far as i know)

for a .22wmr theres no need to go mad on the scope 4x40 would be the all around favourite i have a variable 3-9x40 which is very common and the extra magnification is handy anything over x12 is overkill mines a hawke never had any problems with it common enough the quaility good for money scopes are brushnell, simmons and tasco its not to important with a .22 your only shooting at up to 90yards spend around €100 nothing over €150 ebay's a grand place to pick them up watch who your buying off though you want it packed reasonable well they wouldnt break easily though

things to look out for are mildot and the likes can be handy for marking where a bullet hits so you can shoot at greater distances

jaycee

no nothing about 10/22 is the round bigger than .22lr more accurate range etc??

10/22 refers to a Ruger semi auto /self loading rifle of that name.
The ammo it uses is a plain ordinary .22lr . Some can be a little picky about the ammo you use in them as it needs to reliably operate the auto - bolt to load the next round.

At a guess I think since it has to use a little of the gas pressure from the fired round to do this it is even more picky about using subsonic ammo it's also very important to keep any self loading rifle really clean as otherwise it gets gummed up and fails to operate properly.

Sparks

jaycee wrote:

10/22 refers to a Ruger semi auto /self loading rifle of that name.

Exceedingly popular little semi; also exceedingly awful as a rifle straight out of the box. Hence the entire industry dedicated to aftermarket parts; new triggers, new barrells, new stocks, new sights...
Me, I'm sort of wondering why you don't just buy a working rifle to begin with, but I'm a cantankerous sod some of the time

Babble

Sparks wrote:

Exceedingly popular little semi; also exceedingly awful as a rifle straight out of the box. Hence the entire industry dedicated to aftermarket parts; new triggers, new barrells, new stocks, new sights...
Me, I'm sort of wondering why you don't just buy a working rifle to begin with, but I'm a cantankerous sod some of the time

exceedingly awful might be a little strong They do work great out of the box depending on what you want out of it. Coke Cans beware!! They make a great project gun if you just pick up a cheaper one. When I get my R22 I'll start muckin around with the 10/22 I have.
I know guys who clean theirs every 2000 rounds "whether it needs its or not":eek:

Sparks

Babble wrote:

I know guys who clean theirs every 2000 rounds "whether it needs its or not":eek:

Well, don't go laughing at that so fast - there's a school of thought in smallboreland that says that you clean your bore as little as possible so as not to disturb the wax deposits laid down on the lands in the rifle barrel by the rounds, which would have an effect on group size. And you do have to put a few rounds back down the barrel to get the groups back to where they were pre-cleaning, so there's some truth in it.

Umiq88

i'd clean my gun after every time i use it if im out hunting and fire 10shots or even none it keeps the finish lookin well on the gun keeps it working well and its safer its takes 5secs to clean it run wire yoke down the barrell then a slighlty oiled mop and remove all oil from barrell then wipe down the outsite and the bolt or any other parts with an oily rag easy as that gun will last a lifetime shotgun i have is 30 years old and is working as well as the day my father bought it and aint looking to shabby either as you'll see from the pic i posted

civdef

While not cleaning the barrel of a single-shot or bolt-action 22lr at frequent intervals isn't that much of a problem - you won't get far with that approach using a semi - the amouth of crap that builds up in the receiver has to be seen to be believed.

That said, without dissassembling the action, a few blasts of WD40 and something like a toothbrush can clear a lot of it away.

Babble

Sparks wrote:

there's a school of thought in smallboreland that says that you clean your bore as little as possible so as not to disturb the wax deposits laid down on the lands in the rifle barrel by the rounds, which would have an effect on group size.

There is a lot of different advise regarding how you treat you barrels, the other advise I hear a lot about is "How to correctly break in your new barrel"
After every shot you run your brush through the barrel to stop the copper filling up the micro pores in the metal until the barrel wears in and seals it self, and just as many people who say its rubbish :rolleyes: