Girls Bellys hangin out

rsynnott

Rozie wrote:

http://www.diet-blog.com/archives/2005/05/19/can_medical_journals_be_trusted.php

First google hit.

A link from that page that's even more relevant:

http://www.consumerfreedom.com/news_detail.cfm/headline/2576

But of course, there is no "conspiracy" since the thought of human beings ever being deceitful or putting profit before people is a completely unrealistic notion. :rolleyes:

I realise that studies funded by drug companies are worse than useless. I also realise that medical studies in general are very badly done. However, there have been many state-funded studies into this, and I think it's reasonable to assume that most of them are fair enough. Maybe I'm wrong *shrug* There's no way to be sure other than to conduct a survey myself, and I know just enough about statistics to know that they're very easy to **** up.

sceptre

Rozie wrote:

The US generally sets the standard for BMI that other countries then follow.

No it doesn't and no it hasn't. As a matter of fact the US NIH guidelines for the line between ideal and overweight differed from the WHO recommendations for years (the US line was higher) and was only brought into line with the WHo recommendation in 1998. They followed, they didn't set. The only substantial difference currently existing between regional guidelines and WHO guidelines is for Asians. And that's been defined in Singapore.

BMI of course isn't the best method of deciding whether someone is in fact overweight or not - it's a simple rule of thumb that we can all easily calculate based on a formula that's over 150 years old. It's a basic estimating tool, not a hard rule.

As for the two links above, the first one appears to be generally saying that sometimes people who produce medical papers have a conflict of interest, which is true but not directly relevant in that it doesn't actually reference anything in particular while the second one attacks the CSPI who aren't part of the US NIH, don't have direct input at the WHO any more than I do and again obviously has no relevance in that they don't set the interpretation of what BMI is or means (and see above for it being a basic estimating tool anyway). It does mention the chap who chaired the body that changed the US definition of overweight but as I've mentioned above, they only changed it to bring it into line with pre-existing WHO guidelines in any event (which the writer of the article chooses not to mention, assuming he did his research and was actually aware of that) so that's hardly surprising with a possible axe to grind. Paranoia isn't always one's friend.

Rozie

rsynnott wrote:

I realise that studies funded by drug companies are worse than useless. I also realise that medical studies in general are very badly done. However, there have been many state-funded studies into this, and I think it's reasonable to assume that most of them are fair enough. Maybe I'm wrong *shrug* There's no way to be sure other than to conduct a survey myself, and I know just enough about statistics to know that they're very easy to **** up.

But even the state funded ones are under enormous amount of presure, and I don't see how governments can be blame free.

A lot of the time, with these studies, if you look to find something, you'll find it. There are so many ridiculous things that are the main cause of cancer nowadays that it's unbelievable. It's best to keep an eye out, and pay more attention to the people second guessing than what's put on your plate direclty in front of you.

rsynnott

Will you at least accept that being overweight or (especially) obese greatly increases chances of contracting type II Diabetes, an extremely nasty disease? This is, as far as I know, fairly much universally accepted.We now have kids of 6 contracting Adult Onset Diabetes; they're generally overweight.

Seraphina

ffs Rozie, stop trying to justify being overweight and liking overweight people!

everyone has their own choices, and your whole attempt to push 'being obese isn't unhealthy' on us is really pissing me off

you're allowed to think whatever you wanna think, and prefer whatever shape you wanna prefer. but that doesn't mean we're going to prefer that shape too and also take your view that being a normal size is 'unhealthy' because we're somehow undernourised and all have eating disorders!

now take this bloody arguement back to the fat girls thread, and stop spilling it over into everything else!

Rozie

rsynnott wrote:

Will you at least accept that being overweight or (especially) obese greatly increases chances of contracting type II Diabetes, an extremely nasty disease? This is, as far as I know, fairly much universally accepted.We now have kids of 6 contracting Adult Onset Diabetes; they're generally overweight.

Diabetes is to do with sugar levels, I'm not sure how obesity itself would play a part in it.

The reason those kids are overweight is because they eat a lot of sugarry food, same reason they have diabetes. That's fairly obvious. But it's the amount of sugar they consume and how they react to it rather than the weight they carry, I don't see how that can have anything to do with it.

Rozie

Seraphina wrote:

ffs Rozie, stop trying to justify being overweight and liking overweight people!

everyone has their own choices, and your whole attempt to push 'being obese isn't unhealthy' on us is really pissing me off

you're allowed to think whatever you wanna think, and prefer whatever shape you wanna prefer. but that doesn't mean we're going to prefer that shape too and also take your view that being a normal size is 'unhealthy' because we're somehow undernourised and all have eating disorders!

now take this bloody arguement back to the fat girls thread, and stop spilling it over into everything else!

That was extremely rude. How am I pushing "Being obese isn't unhealthy" any more than you're pushing twice as much on me, dare say?

I never said anything about what shape people prefer. I'm just trying to get people to realise that being overweight doesn't automatically make a person lazy or unattractive, if you can't stand that, then quite frankly, you can go **** yourself.

I never said that normal size is unhealthy, and I do NOT appreciate people twisting my words in that manner. I said that being extremely underweight is more unhealthy than being "fat", which it more than likely is.

And lastly, I didn't spill it over here, someone else did. Quite why it's human nature like to blame someone who stands up for something and accuse them of ridiculous fallacies is beyond me, but please, stop doing it.

Rb

Seraphina wrote:

ffs Rozie, stop trying to justify being overweight and liking overweight people!

everyone has their own choices, and your whole attempt to push 'being obese isn't unhealthy' on us is really pissing me off

you're allowed to think whatever you wanna think, and prefer whatever shape you wanna prefer. but that doesn't mean we're going to prefer that shape too and also take your view that being a normal size is 'unhealthy' because we're somehow undernourised and all have eating disorders!

now take this bloody arguement back to the fat girls thread, and stop spilling it over into everything else!

/applauds and cheers

Le Rack

rb_ie wrote:

my index finger is 2cm's wide and I'd never consider myself "big boned".

For a girl?

rsynnott

Rozie wrote:

Diabetes is to do with sugar levels, I'm not sure how obesity itself would play a part in it.

The reason those kids are overweight is because they eat a lot of sugarry food, same reason they have diabetes. That's fairly obvious. But it's the amount of sugar they consume and how they react to it rather than the weight they carry, I don't see how that can have anything to do with it.

Do you have a source for this? Diabetes AFFECTS processing of sugar, certainly, and once you are diabetic you must be very careful about sugar, but the risk factors in type 2 diabetes seem to be simple overweightness, along with cholesterol, blood pressure and genetics.

Rb

Le Rack wrote:

For a girl?

I'm a dude. I know girls who are size six and their index finger is about half the size of mine (1cm), yet to meet a girl who has an index finger of less than 1cm.

Seraphina

Rozie wrote:

That was extremely rude. How am I pushing "Being obese isn't unhealthy" any more than you're pushing twice as much on me, dare say?

umm i haven't pushed anything on you. i've just been reading the threads and become increasinly irritated by your refusal to accept some facts and other people's opinions.

Rozie wrote:

I never said anything about what shape people prefer. I'm just trying to get people to realise that being overweight doesn't automatically make a person lazy or unattractive, if you can't stand that, then quite frankly, you can go **** yourself.

no, being overweight doesn't automatically make people lazy. however, alot of fat people *are* lazy, and simply just dont exercise enough, and blame other things for not being able to lose weight. it _does_ make them unattractive to alot of people ( i'm not saying all, just the majority maybe) and you dont seem to want to acknowledge that. umm i'm not quite sure why you resorted to telling me to go **** myself, but i'm sure its because you couldn't come up with anything better.

Rozie wrote:

I never said that normal size is unhealthy, and I do NOT appreciate people twisting my words in that manner. I said that being extremely underweight is more unhealthy than being "fat", which it more than likely is.

no but you were implying that sizes 8-10 are unhealthy. being *extremely* underweight is probably more unhealthy than being fat alright. but then how many *extremely* underweight people do you actually know? i haven't been to any famine zones recently myself, you?
i do know alot of fat people though. and i can tell you its having detrimental effects on their health already.

Rozie wrote:

And lastly, I didn't spill it over here, someone else did. Quite why it's human nature like to blame someone who stands up for something and accuse them of ridiculous fallacies is beyond me, but please, stop doing it.

yeah but you're dragging the arguement out AGAIN. everyone has facts to contradict you and you're ignoring them. umm. yeah you waffled more than you made points really, but sure i gave the whole respone thing a shot anyway.

Rb

Seraphina wrote:

no, being overweight doesn't automatically make people lazy. however, alot of fat people *are* lazy

And alot of lazy people are fat, it more or less goes hand in hand.

Seraphina

well yeah that was kinda the point

Rozie

umm i haven't pushed anything on you. i've just been reading the threads and become increasinly irritated by your refusal to accept some facts and other people's opinions.

What facts exactly? I've counterred things with some level of evidence(at least in one of the other threads) and much of it is up for opinion, really.

And how have I not accepted other peoples opinions? I don't count guilting fat people into believing it's all their fault as "opinion". And please demonstrate to me how they're not accepting mine?

no, being overweight doesn't automatically make people lazy. however, alot of fat people *are* lazy, and simply just dont exercise enough, and blame other things for not being able to lose weight. it _does_ make them unattractive to alot of people ( i'm not saying all, just the majority maybe) and you dont seem to want to acknowledge that. umm i'm not quite sure why you resorted to telling me to go **** myself, but i'm sure its because you couldn't come up with anything better.

Attractiveness is a relative thing, but only if you remove any notion of bias. I'm saying that people see them as unattractive purely because of preconcieved notions of being overweight, rather than them actually having phyiscal features which are a turn off to them.

no but you were implying that sizes 8-10 are unhealthy. being *extremely* underweight is probably more unhealthy than being fat alright. but then how many *extremely* underweight people do you actually know? i haven't been to any famine zones recently myself, you?
i do know alot of fat people though. and i can tell you its having detrimental effects on their health already.

I do know quite a few anas, actually, and I've been through a lot of **** trying to help them sort out their heads. I'd rather not go there right now.

And how exactly do you know it's having detrimental effects on their healthy? Are you a doctor now? A surprising amount of fat people I know play sports, and are quite healthy. I'm not the healthiest person, but it's down to things in my head rather than down to my weight.

Then again, I'm not sure I'd even trust all doctors, as they very often perscribe diets, which really, really don't work. Best way to loose weight is to beat any kind of depression first, really.

Rozie

rb_ie wrote:

And alot of lazy people are fat, it more or less goes hand in hand.

Really, can you speak for these people and know there motives? While there is a trend, the original cause for the trend itself is really up for grabs.

And is it even their fault they're lazy?

I think it's a lot to do with the stressful, capitalistic world we live in; we see fat people as unproductive somehow, because they're obviously lazy and spend far too much on food. We then feel it necessary to mock for that reason.

I don't even see lazy as that bad a thing, depending on why that person is lazy and how. We're too obsessed with working and putting effort into things that we forget to work hard and put lots of effort into the things that really matter, like getting along.

Rb

Rozie wrote:

And is it even their fault they're lazy?

YES, yes it is. Who the f*ck else is to blame if someone chooses to be inactive.

Rozie wrote:

I think it's a lot to do with the stressful, capitalistic world we live in; we see fat people as unproductive somehow, because they're obviously lazy and spend far too much on food. We then feel it necessary to mock for that reason.

Well if they were getting enough exercise to burn fat and eating right then they wouldn't be that way now would they?

Rozie wrote:

I don't even see lazy as that bad a thing, depending on why that person is lazy and how. We're too obsessed with working and putting effort into things that we forget to work hard and put lots of effort into the things that really matter, like getting along.

LMAO!

Sangre

Rozie wrote:

I never said that normal size is unhealthy, and I do NOT appreciate people twisting my words in that manner. I said that being extremely underweight is more unhealthy than being "fat", which it more than likely is.

And now why don't we make a real arguement.
Lets try and compare extremely underweight and extremely overweight.

Well what do you know, they're both unhealthy....hence the EXTREME part.

Jesus Rozie stop passing opinion off as fact.

Show us proof.

Seraphina

Rozie wrote:

What facts exactly? I've counterred things with some level of evidence(at least in one of the other threads) and much of it is up for opinion, really.

'some level of evidence' you dont even sound like you believe yourself, how are we supposed to believe you? facts are not up for opinion.

Rozie wrote:

And how have I not accepted other peoples opinions? I don't count guilting fat people into believing it's all their fault as "opinion". And please demonstrate to me how they're not accepting mine?

well your continuing to argue blindly. umm this has nothing to do with guilting fat people into believing its all their fault. its about whether or not its unhealthy to be overweight. do you know why its called 'overweight'? thats right! because they are above the normal weight for their age/bone structure/whatever. they are into the weight bracket which causes health problems through strain on the heart etc. etc we all know the problems.
i would think the fact that most people on this thread are argueing against you would show that people aren't accepting your opinion btw.

Rozie wrote:

Attractiveness is a relative thing, but only if you remove any notion of bias. I'm saying that people see them as unattractive purely because of preconcieved notions of being overweight, rather than them actually having phyiscal features which are a turn off to them.

well no. your instincts generally decide whats attractive, and this is mostly based on helping you chose a healthy mate. the whole waist to hip ratio etc. men go for the childbearing hips thing, hence the hourglass figure. i dont think people are so sheep like to just follow preconceived notions of whats attractive. i mean gay men dont follow the preconceived notion that they should like women, do they?

Rozie wrote:

I do know quite a few anas, actually, and I've been through a lot of **** trying to help them sort out their heads. I'd rather not go there right now.

im assuming your talking about those with eating disorders. yes, we all know it happens. however its alot rarer than overweight people. overweight people are a dime a dozen

Rozie wrote:

And how exactly do you know it's having detrimental effects on their healthy? Are you a doctor now? A surprising amount of fat people I know play sports, and are quite healthy. I'm not the healthiest person, but it's down to things in my head rather than down to my weight.

umm. its basic biological fact. try any *reputable* medical website and they'll list numerous conditions which are much more common, or appear exclusively in, overweight people. but that may be just a lifestyle thing, i dont know.

i *do* know that my overweight uncle went in for a routine operation, which had to be cut short due to irregular breathing problems caused by being overweight and unfit

yeah fat people can play sports. wow they can move just like everyone else! i never said they couldn't, but i bet i can still run faster and longer than they can
your not a doctor yourself, how do *you* know their healthy?

Rozie wrote:

Then again, I'm not sure I'd even trust all doctors, as they very often perscribe diets, which really, really don't work. Best way to loose weight is to beat any kind of depression first, really.

umm ok. dont trust doctors so. im sure they know a lot more than you do about how the human body works. so why bother asking me if im a doctor if you dont trust medical science anyway? and why on earth are you throwing in the depression thing? is that supposed to be another excuse or 'reason' for being overweight? i feel sorry for you, and im not being insulting, but we all have our problems, dont go trying to play some kind of sympathy card.

umm yeah i've had enough of this thread, you're not going to listen anyways. reply all ye want but i couldn't give a damn really. you're annoying me too much

Rozie

I'm really getting sick and tired of this ridiculously uninformed, one-sided debate(which is just about like any other debate on here, quite frankly).

Anything I say I'm supposedly forcing opinion as fact where comments like this "YES, yes it is. Who the f*ck else is to blame if someone chooses to be inactive." are perfectly okay, ignoring entirely that nobody said people who this person would percieve as "lazy" aren't always at fault.

Well if they were getting enough exercise to burn fat and eating right then they wouldn't be that way now would they?

And how do you know that? And how do you know why they aren't eating right, or excercising? Or do you even give a ****? No, of course you don't.

LMAO!

Right, that was an overwhelming display of respect (or stupidity, either or).

'some level of evidence' you dont even sound like you believe yourself, how are we supposed to believe you? facts are not up for opinion.

What are you talking about? I provided links to places that suggest that medical journals are not all they seem. I could but replies are being flung at me at such a ridiculous rate I physically don't have time to search for more results.

well your continuing to argue blindly. umm this has nothing to do with guilting fat people into believing its all their fault.

Have you even read the last few replies!? If you have and still stand by that, I'm going to go absolutely nuts.

its about whether or not its unhealthy to be overweight. do you know why its called 'overweight'? thats right! because they are above the normal weight for their age/bone structure/whatever.

And how is being different inherently bad?

they are into the weight bracket which causes health problems through strain on the heat etc. etc we all know the problems.

And I'm disagreeing with this, and have seen and read a lot of documentries that suggest otherwise, and am siding with that. I'm not saying that obesity doesn't put more strain or increase risks of X and Y, I'm just saying that the way people treat it is heavily exagerrated and insulting to fat people; and not necessarily any worse than smoking.

i would think the fact that most people on this thread are argueing against you would show that people aren't accepting your opinion btw.

Arguments on this forum, and on the internet general, are very often one-sided. Usually one person gets into a fight with the majority, anyone on their side sees they're out numbered and runs off, or the person in the first place is challenging a widespread ignorance in the first place.
I represent minority opinion in just about everything I've argued on in this forum, and it isn't pleasant. People accepting my opinion meants jack squatt as to whether it's correct or not, but they should be at least accepting my opinion as opinion, which they aren't.

well no. your instincts generally decide whats attractive, and this is mostly based on helping you chose a healthy mate. the whole waist to hip ratio etc. men go for the childbearing hips thing, hence the hourglass figure. i dont think people are so sheep like to just follow preconceived notions of whats attractive. i mean gay men dont follow the preconceived notion that they should like women, do they?

Then why on earth did larger women used to be accepted as "attractive" many years ago, and not now? There IS bias, people are influenced by a number of things. There is no possible way you can argue this point; even looking at classical drawings the women in those were a bit larger than our modern "ideal" figures.

umm. its basic biological fact. try any *reputable* medical website and they'll list numerous conditions which are much more common, or appear exclusively in, overweight people. but that may be just a lifestyle thing, i dont know.

But you said you saw it for yourself. Now you say you're seeing it because some other people are telling you this MUST be the case.

i *do* know that my overweight uncle went in for a routine operation, which had to be cut short due to irregular breathing problems caused by being overweight and unfit

And this does happen. But again, he was probably unhealthy in general.

umm ok. dont trust doctors so. im sure they know a lot more than you do about how the human body works. so why bother asking me if im a doctor if you dont trust medical science anyway? and why on earth are you throwing in the depression thing? is that supposed to be another excuse or 'reason' for being overweight? i feel sorry for you, and im not being insulting, but we all have our problems, dont go trying to play some kind of sympathy card.

I'm not playing a sympathy card, why would I have reason to in this argument? Quite frankly, most people online don't give a **** about other people, so it would hardly win any an awwws.

And I'm just skeptical about things that are put in front of me. I don't believe everything I'm shown when I'm shown an alternative that seems more logical to me.

umm yeah i've had enough of this thread, you're not going to listen anyways. reply all ye want but i couldn't give a damn really. you're annoying me too much

I really hate these kind of "after comments". What purpose did typing that serve, really?

Rb

Rozie wrote:

Anything I say I'm supposedly forcing opinion as fact where comments like this "YES, yes it is. Who the f*ck else is to blame if someone chooses to be inactive." are perfectly okay, ignoring entirely that nobody said people who this person would percieve as "lazy" aren't always at fault.

Damnit, I left out a question mark, that should of read "Who the f*ck else is to blame is someone chooses to be inactive ?

Rozie wrote:

And how do you know that? And how do you know why they aren't eating right, or excercising? Or do you even give a ****? No, of course you don't.

I think it's pretty obvious if someones eating crap and not exercising. Even someone with an extremely good metabolism would be affected physically by that.

Rozie wrote:

Right, that was an overwhelming display of respect (or stupidity, either or).

Oh I'm to respect you?

Rozie wrote:

Then why on earth did larger women used to be accepted as "attractive" many years ago, and not now?

Probably because there was less medical information as to what can happen from being like that?

Rozie

Yeah, this is really getting stupid now.

Meadows

I think fatness should be controlled at a state level. In the future when people are fat they should be forced on safe diets and forced to exercise.

The reason behind this is because fatness leads to health problems and social problems such as depression.

If the government did this the populous would be more productive, happier and would save money on health care in the long run.

The government will save money only when fatness falls into being culturally unacceptable.

Any views please?

NeoSlicerZ

Meadows wrote:

I think fatness should be controlled at a state level. In the future when people are fat they should be forced on safe diets and forced to exercise.

The reason behind this is because fatness leads to health problems and social problems such as depression.

If the government did this the populous would be more productive, happier and would save money on health care in the long run.

The government will save money only when fatness falls into being culturally unacceptable.

Any views please?

Food will be a 5 pill meal

audge

dbnavan wrote:

Hi all,

I dont want to start world war 3 here. But I was just wondering whats the crack with this new trend of girls with bellies hangin over jeans? Before I get attacked I have nothing in the slightest against big girls at all! But not sure bellies hanging over jeans is most attractive fashion ever, girls and blokes opinions please.

D

You are right. Now I am no slim sam, I am a size 12/14, and I have a nice little pot belly going on, but I have to agree with you, it looks a whole lot better covered up. I hate love handles. and I cannot understand why women feel the need to flaunt them.
Ladies, if I could just give you one piece of advice ..................

BUY THE BIGGER SIZE!!!!!!!

Man1975

muffin tops definitely unattractive; but worse is wearing hipsters so low you can see the top of the pubic bush. Probably worth looking in the mirror before you leave home for that one.

At the same time, IMHO, nice flat bellies are very sexy and def. worth showing off.

Moonspheres

Meadows wrote:

I think fatness should be controlled at a state level. In the future when people are fat they should be forced on safe diets and forced to exercise.

The reason behind this is because fatness leads to health problems and social problems such as depression.

If the government did this the populous would be more productive, happier and would save money on health care in the long run.

The government will save money only when fatness falls into being culturally unacceptable.

Any views please?

You are joking, yes?

aoifeg

"I think fatness should be controlled at a state level."

are you joking? why stop there? ban cigarettes, alcohol, violence on tv, cars, chocolate, scissors, knives... make the country invest in a massive bubblewrap scheme to protect everyone...

Rb

Moonspheres wrote:

You are joking, yes?

AFAIK animated sigs are a no no on boards.

simu

Thread locked - this is ridiculous.