Cork traitor retires

Guy:Incognito

Davei141 wrote:

Too many.



If roy keane wasnt such a man child he would of voiced his concerns in a way that didnt leave us without our captain and one player down, never mind the country being split, keane thought he walked on water and that he could say what he wanted and how he wanted, he was wrong.

Can I ask you a question. If you had the chance to play football for a living and earn huge money for about 10 years, then that was put in jeadpardy by being asked by an underprepared bunch of unprofessionals to potentailly put your livelyhood at risk by training in facilities that arent fit for the AUL, would you get on with it and say **** fergie and my €120000 a week and go along with such celebrated minds as Jason "Trigger" McAteer"?

Plus your wife would castrate you for being a gob****e if you got injured and stopped earning.

Guy:Incognito

Davei141 wrote:

End a players career maybe? I guess that must of slipped your mind and would tarnished the image of keane with a halo around his head.

He didnt , it was Haalands othe rknee that finished his career.

How that affects him playing fr Ireland ill never know.

KdjaCL

Davei141 wrote:

End a players career maybe? I guess that must of slipped your mind and would tarnished the image of keane with a halo around his head.

Did he end a players career playing for ireland or play like a irish man representing his country when he played?


if he ended someoens career playing for a club who gives a fcuk we irish, green jerseys is all we should care about.



kdjac

Ruu_Old

As much as i was annoyed at the whole Keane-McCarthy thing, i still think he is the best player we ever had, a great captain and a great player. He will be missed no matter what people think of him. Anyone know if he mentioned anything regarding a possible managing career?

Davei141

stekelly wrote:

Can I ask you a question. If you had the chance to play football for a living and earn huge money for about 10 years, then that was put in jeadpardy by being asked by an underprepared bunch of unprofessionals to potentailly put your livelyhood at risk by training in facilities that arent fit for the AUL, would you get on with it and say **** fergie and my €120000 a week and go along with such celebrated minds as Jason "Trigger" McAteer"?

Plus your wife would castrate you for being a gob****e if you got injured and stopped earning.

He didnt , it was Haalands othe rknee that finished his career.

How that affects him playing fr Ireland ill never know.

My mistake, he tried to end his career, much better. He didnt mind putting haalands livelihood at risk did he? No offence but going on about the facilities injuring people when he was kicking lumps out of everyone during his prime is laughable.

Did he end a players career playing for ireland or play like a irish man representing his country when he played?


if he ended someoens career playing for a club who gives a fcuk we irish, green jerseys is all we should care about.

Ill take that as tongue firmly in cheek.

BKtje

Great man (who like many great men are/were surrounded by controversy) who im very sad to see retire. Thanks Keano!

blu_sonic

all due respect we're debating his irish career not his club career, regardless of alfie inge or not, he stood up for what he thought the whole squad wanted and mick tried to make an example out of him, how better to strike fear and demand respect by slashing at Keane?

Guy:Incognito

Davei141 wrote:

No offence but going on about the facilities injuring people when he was kicking lumps out of everyone during his prime is laughable. D

Football is a hard game, haaland tackle aside the rest is part and parcel of football. Ive given a lot worse than what ive seen Keane doing. Just because thyeve let diving fairies into the game doesnt change the fact that its a contact sport.

He might have been getting his own back on haaland but he didnt do it to end his career.

Guy:Incognito

The fact of the matter is. None of us or our opinion smatter. The thing is tho, for all the Keane doubters and the people who blame him for saipan. Why did th esquad welcome him back with open arms if he was so wrong? Even Quinn hasnt said a bad word about him since. They were all supporting McCarthy for one reason: they were too scared to stand up to him and jeopardise their own world cup for what was right.

Aquos76

Stekelly wrote:

The fact of the matter is. None of us or our opinion smatter. The thing is tho, for all the Keane doubters and the people who blame him for saipan. Why did the squad welcome him back with open arms if he was so wrong? Even Quinn hasnt said a bad word about him since. They were all supporting McCarthy for one reason: they were too scared to stand up to him and jeopardise their own world cup for what was right.

About time, someone pointed this out.

Roy will always be remembered for what happened over in Saipan. But stats dont lie, He will also go down as Ireland greatest player and will hold that title for a very long time to come, as the future looks very bleek with regards to new players emerging for our country.

Thanx 4 The Fish

He was not even Irelands greatest ever midfielder, let alone best player ever.

blu_sonic

may i ask who you'd put forward for the role?

and can i ask if its his utd connection that clouds you as a livepool fan?

i would say he is a great, i would say anyplayer was the greatest its too personal a decision, ie my grandfather swore george best was the all time greatest, most everyone agrees its pelé, many more would say maradonna, its a personal decision, my all time fav was paulo rossi, i don't think he was the greatest ever just my fav.

ireland wise many people are forgetting:
Paul Mcgrath, david o'leary, ronny whelan, johhny giles, don givens, liam brady. lets be honest most user on boards are not too old so the keane is the first quality player they've seen, (I'm only 22, so even my short list is flawed). but give the man his dues he really was our only world class play for about 7-10 years.

thoughst?

CrimE

Well said stekelly. Keane was the only player man enough to stand up and tell it as it was; we all know by now the state of the facilities they had to endure. For this he was ostricised, criminalised and hated by a lot of the Irish people he had played his heart out to represent.

Its a disgrace that people can question his contribution to Irish football. Imho he is the best ever Irish player by miles.

My 0.02.

eirebhoy

Pigman II wrote:

Give the OP break. He's only voicing his opinion and I reckon he's just hitting a few home truths that some are not comfortable hearing or facing. Because Imho whilst I accept there is definetly a large percentage of people who genuinely take TheTraitors side on things re Saipan there is also lot of hypocrites around who were ready to forget it all and accept TheTraitor back into the fold (not because they felt he was right in his actions in 2002 but) only because he was a great player and they could see as well as anyone that he was needed on the pitch.

Do you agree with my "if mccarthy was player and keane was manager" comment? If not, why?

Thanx 4 The Fish

Why would you suggest that my liverpool ties would affect how I feel about an Irish player ? I would put Liam brady (arsenal not liverpool) up in there for a start lad as a better midfielder. As for best player ever, McGrath worthy of mention (there is a bit more of my liverpool bias).

mewso

The worst thing about this Keane arguement is the blinkered views some people have. Nothing is ever simple. To alot here the sun shines out of Keane's proverbial. I'm of the opinion that he has been a great player for Ireland but like Thanx for the Fish has said Liam Brady was probably our greatest player (imo of course). He is the only player we have had who was successful overseas, a true world class player. Keane was outstanding at his job, as a holding midfielder, not creative and in fairness the tough tacklers and holders of the ball don't always get their due. In Keanes case he got his due and beyond to the point of hysteria in the media and rabid fans lapping it up.
In Saipan I was with McCarthy. I thought both Keane and McCarthy had acted badly and both had made mistakes but I couldn't agree with Keanes actions at that particular time. He would have had the whole country behind him if he had timed his complaints when it wasn't going to bugger up preparations for the WC. At that point the damage was done (bad training facilities etc.) and making an issue out of it on the eve of the WC helped nobody. The issues were not life threatening or career threatening and the rest of squad seemed able to play and played well in the games that followed despite poor facilities.
When Kerr decided to ask Keane back it was for me a bad move. We had a team that was learning to live without Keane because yes as I said I recognised him as a great player who inspired the team etc. etc. but we had moved on and were making a difficult adjustment. Now they had him back and he was nowhere near what he once was. Of course it would be sacrilege to suggest he was anything less than a God to some people.
Now with the expected announcment of his retirement I would salute him for what he did for Ireland and I would never call him a traitor. Thats as bad as the hysterical Keane lovers. No balance. Keane did what he thought was right whether I agree or not.
Finally the idea of him becoming a manager panders to the hysterical Keane lovers yet again. How could he not be a great manager? It's Keano ffs. Well maybe because he hasn't managed before now. I have this silly little idea that it would nice to have somebody with a proven record in the job. For example I consider Brady our greatest ever player but I wouldn't want him to have the job because he has failed as a manager. Simple as that. Any hope of realism from folks here who are extreme to one side of the arguement or the other is futile I suppose.

Pigman II

eirebhoy wrote:

Do you agree with my "if mccarthy was player and keane was manager" comment? If not, why?

I'm sorry but I don't really see why you are asking me this question? Are you trying to point out that the the two of them didn't get on? We knew that but that's not my issue.

Just to clarify I am not anti-Keane because he was unsatisfied with Irelands setup or because he missed every 2nd game for us or because he was at loggerheads with the manager or even because as it turned out he never played in any of those 4 WC games.

I am critical of him because he made a commitment to his team and country to play in the World Cup Finals yet subsequently made his intentions clear he was going to walk out on us the day before he was eventually given no choice in the matter. When he made the decision to walk he was subsequently talked out of it, however the damage had already been done as far as I was concerned. The man who had missed 48 out of 106 internationals for us up to this point had finally shown his true colours. That's when he became 'TheTraitor' in my eyes.

Unlike Keane, McCarthy as a player was never openly critical of his teammates, or made his intentions clear that he was going to walk out on his team-mates and country at the 11th hour or committed himself to play in a World Cup tournament for his country only to make clear he was leaving when the scenario that presented itself got too much for him or didn't meet his own expectations.

So to answer your question as best as I can , I'd have to say 'no' because MmcC wouldn't have given 'manager' Keane a reason to send him home by not acting in the way 'player' Keane did in the first place.

blu_sonic

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote:

Why would you suggest that my liverpool ties would affect how I feel about an Irish player ? I would put Liam brady (arsenal not liverpool) up in there for a start lad as a better midfielder. As for best player ever, McGrath worthy of mention (there is a bit more of my liverpool bias).

just there seems a huge man u - livepool bias on the whole forum

why tell me (arsenal not liverpool) could say juve too, couldn't you?

lad?? a little patronising

i agree that people saying keane is the be all of irish footy are a little bit nieve, but i think its a hard call on the best of all time, it is too hard of a call, i think for people to say i rate roy along with brady and mcgrath would be more realistic

Thanx 4 The Fish

blu_sonic wrote:

just there seems a huge man u - livepool bias on the whole forum

why tell me (arsenal not liverpool) could say juve too, couldn't you?

lad?? a little patronising

i agree that people saying keane is the be all of irish footy are a little bit nieve, but i think its a hard call on the best of all time, it is too hard of a call, i think for people to say i rate roy along with brady and mcgrath would be more realistic

There may well be a huge manu - liverpool bias on this forum and it is your choice to continue to post here. As for why I said Liam Brady of Arsenal it was to highlight that you suggesting that I do not rate keane over Brady bbecause I was a liverpool fan is utter rubbish.

blu_sonic

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote:

There may well be a huge manu - liverpool bias on this forum and it is your choice to continue to post here. As for why I said Liam Brady of Arsenal it was to highlight that you suggesting that I do not rate keane over Brady bbecause I was a liverpool fan is utter rubbish.

I support neiter of the reds, i never once sudjested you rateed him over brady becase of lpool, i asked if supporting lpool influenced your decision in your contempt of RK. its not rubbish its a valid point, people on this board seem so preoccupied with their man u - lpool bias that they "cut off their nose despite their face" in regards to a one up man ship between the supporters, don't you accept/agree that RK should be mentioned alone with brady, mcgrath, giles and co? whats your criteria for the all time irish player?

Thanx 4 The Fish

That was not what I was responding to though. The statement that Roy Keane was the best irish player ever was what I took issue with.

If the question was asked should he be mentioned amongst the best, well he most certainly should.

I would appreciate it if you desisted in suggesting that it is because I am a liverpool fan that I do not think that Roy Keane was the best Irish player ever because I can guarantee you that such a suggestion is absolute rubbish.

The reason perhaps that some people think I am being biased because I do not think that Roy Keane is the best Irish player ever is because they only started to support Irish football when it became popular or are too young to remember an Irish team without Roy Keane in it and granted he is the best of the most recent crop but that does not say much for him.

blu_sonic

ah thats grad crossed wires cuz thats exactly the view i have, i would put any player up fr best ever its too personal a desicion for anyone to make, so many different reasons to be the best.

my fav irish player would be pau mcgrath, but i couldn't say if he was the best ever

eirebhoy

eirebhoy wrote:

Brian is also a gent and doesn't deserve comments like that. He tried his best, he failed. He has been great for football in this country.

look your dead right. kerr is a gentleman and did give it his best shot fair play to him. its all we could have asked for.

however i honestly do not think he has a future as ireland manager but having said that some of the players who became great players before the brian kerr era such as stephen carr, john o shea, did not put in the performances for him and some of the team became complacent and inconsistent.

i dont believe we will improve much greater under him, i may be wrong but its my opinion.

KdjaC wrote:

Why do you bother EB? I mean look at who and what your replying to,

i gave keano a bit of praise same as you so i think your being harsh on me. i was merely suggesting i think kerrs time is up which is my humble opinion

Chucky the tree

blu_sonic wrote:

all due respect we're debating his irish career not his club career, regardless of alfie inge or not, he stood up for what he thought the whole squad wanted and mick tried to make an example out of him, how better to strike fear and demand respect by slashing at Keane?

Yea, i am sure the whole squad wanted him to call mcCarthy an English wanker. :rolleyes:

Stekelly wrote:

The fact of the matter is. None of us or our opinion smatter. The thing is tho, for all the Keane doubters and the people who blame him for saipan. Why did th esquad welcome him back with open arms if he was so wrong? Even Quinn hasnt said a bad word about him since. They were all supporting McCarthy for one reason: they were too scared to stand up to him and jeopardise their own world cup for what was right.

Sorry, i must of been away for a week when all the irish world cup squad spoke out and criticised McCarthy, Any chance you can put some links up so i can see what they all said?

arbeitsscheuer

Say what you like about McCarthy, but under his stewardship was the last time Ireland played anything like the kind of football I want to see it play. Since he left we've regressed - in terms of tactics, approach, confidence and style.

Now, you could blame that on any number of things, and certainly the current crop of players is the most talentless Irish squad I've ever seen, so Kerr didn't exactly hav a rich variety to work with, but nonetheless...

It was certainly obvious that under Kerr's reign, Ireland could only ever hope of touching greatness if Keano was in the side. And call be a pessimist, but constantly having to rely on a 35 year old to bail out your national side smacks of having "short-term solution" written all over it.

P.S. Best Irish Player Ever? Why, the same as Arsenal's! Chippy Brady.

blu_sonic

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote:

The reason perhaps that some people think I am being biased because I do not think that Roy Keane is the best Irish player ever is because they only started to support Irish football when it became popular or are too young to remember an Irish team without Roy Keane in it and granted he is the best of the most recent crop but that does not say much for him.

i said this in my 1st post, and i agree fully, its that so many people on boards would be young 14-28 or so that they remember nothing pre italy 90, (and i said being 22 i'm one of em)

i never said "you hate keane cuz your a liverpool fan" i aked if that it was his man utd connection that might colour your judgment of him, a simple no would have surviced.

Chucky the tree wrote:

Yea, i am sure the whole squad wanted him to call mcCarthy an English wanker.

Agreed they weren't expecting that, i'm guessing they wanted him to complain about the facilities, and depending on who's side of the story you read, he only said that after mick had belittled him in front of the whole squad after keane voiced himself on the conditions

now, this thread isn't about decussing the ins and outs of the Saipan fiasco, its about keane retiring, whether people think its good or bad,

The Muppet

Stekelly wrote:

Best Irish player ever. Legend. The only one who cared enough and put the country before himself by speaking out.


If the rest of the senior players, I'm looking at you Quinn and staunton, had doen th eright thing and stood behind him instead of putting themselves at risk by maybe missing their last chance to play in a world cup it would have been so different.



The simple fact is that none of the players have since blamed him, which seriously smacks of them puting themselves and them playing in a world cup ahead of what was best for Ireland, whos the real traitor?

Definately my choice for manager, cos he will get th ebest from players. He has all their respect, its obvious.Although I dont think it will happen this time as its too early plus he should aty least get some coaching experience at Utd first and maybe when hes assistant at Utd he could make the jump.

DubGuy wrote:

Ok, I don't know if this thread is ment to go down a Roy Vs Mick McCarthy road here, so let's just set out a few groundrules!

1/ He never walked out on his country, he was kicked out of the world cup by Mick McCarthy, and he addmitted he wanted to stay.
2/ He said he wouldn't go back if he was asked, which he never was, or would have been by McCarthy.
3/ We don't know what the McCarthy/Keane relationship was like....it's about 15 years old, and a lot of things could have been said or done in that time by either party that we have no idea of.
4/ It's fair to say, everybody (and anybody with ay memory or comprehension of football) knows we wouldn't have been in that WC if it wasn't for his performances in the qualifiers against Cyprus, Portugal, Holland.
5/ If we're going to speculate about what went on in that room, then it's fair to say anything that happend or was said that could ryle Roy Keane up that much should have been handled in private, and if it was, the whole "undermining McCarthy infront of the squad" would never have happend, and that was McCarthys reason for sending him home.

I don't think anybody can take 100% either side, as they are both perfessionals, and it should have all been taking care of in private. If tension existed the FAI should have attempted to resolve it....do they even have a human resource department?

So there are as many as three parties at fault, and I can't say any of them can be 100% blamed.

All that said nobody can denie Roys contribution to Irish football....he's the greatest player of a generation...how ungreatfull can you be? If he had never of played football...we still wouldn't have had him in the WC, but we wouldn't have gotten all his amasing performances outside of it.

Legend.

Two excellent post which would sum up my feelings on the issue.

It's sad to see the myopic inane comments made about one of our greatest players ever in this thread. I say inane because many comments in this thread and even the thread title is not factually correct. It is fact that Keane was sent home from Saipan By Mc Carthy, He was not given the option to stay. If you are unwilling to accept that listen here http://www.themuppet.utvinternet.com/keano/ . There was fault on both sides and IMO those comments berating Keano are a poor reflection on those making them.

I wish Roy all the best and thank him for the positive contribution he has made to our national team, For going some way to sorting out the mess that was the orgainsation behind our team but most of all for the dedication commitment and passion he has shown on the pitch while wearing The Green Of Ireland.

Pigman II

Where is anyone (including myself) denying that RK was a great player or even that in the end it was McCarthy who ended his World Cup? Why exactly do you think people are calling him a traitor?

If anything it is the people who excuse RK for everything he's said and done just because he was a great player who are being myopic, posting inanities and casting a poor reflections on themselves.

The Muppet

Pigman II wrote:

Where is anyone (including myself) denying that RK was a great player or even that in the end it was McCarthy who ended his World Cup? Why exactly do you think people are calling him a traitor?

If anything it is the people who excuse RK for everything he's said and done just because he was a great player who are being myopic, posting inanities and casting a poor reflections on themselves.

A few people in this thread have said that Roy walked out on Ireland in Saipan. As my clip shows Mc Carthy sent him home, had he not Keane would have played in the last world cup. Anyone that spotuts the "he walked out on his country" line is factually wrong and are inanely letting ther personal dislike for the man cloud their view.

Your viewpoint is slightly different than some of teh otheres expressed in that you call him a traitor because he threatened to walk when the facilities In Saipan fell far short from what they should have been in the weeks before the world cup.

If you want to lable him a traitor for that well then in my view you are wrong. The Genesis report has found in Keanes favour on that issue and I feel he did Ireland a hugh service for highlighting issus that had for too long been swept under the carpet and ignored by the incomptents ruling our national team.

If you listened to Brian Kerr the other evening talking abour how Ireland now prepares for games I think it's obvious that there is a lot of support for Keanes stance amoung the players and management.

Pigman II

Let's get something straight here. He wasn't just 'threatening' to go. He didn't give Mick and the FAI an ultimatum of 'fix x, y and z by this time next week or I'm gone' He had in fact at this point actually thrown in his cards, washed his hands of the team, made the decision to leave and declared it. He only returned to the squad at this point because McCarthy and FAI officials subseqently managed to convince to stay.

I'm not arguing as to whether he was right or wrong to blow up like he did over the quality of the buildup. I'm saying that when you make a commitment to your team and country play in a world cup you stick to it 100% no matter how badly it turns out. You don't walk out on your teammates (you don't even threaten to either).

Guy:Incognito

Chucky the tree wrote:

Sorry, i must of been away for a week when all the irish world cup squad spoke out and criticised McCarthy, Any chance you can put some links up so i can see what they all said?

Where exactly did I say they criticised McCarthy? What I did say was that once outside his influence none of them blamed Keane or Criticised him.

Guy:Incognito

Pigman II wrote:

Let's get something straight here. He wasn't just 'threatening' to go. He didn't give Mick and the FAI an ultimatum of 'fix x, y and z by this time next week or I'm gone' He had in fact at this point actually thrown in his cards, washed his hands of the team, made the decision to leave and declared it. He only returned to the squad at this point because McCarthy and FAI officials subseqently managed to convince to stay.

I'm not arguing as to whether he was right or wrong to blow up like he did over the quality of the buildup. I'm saying that when you make a commitment to your team and country play in a world cup you stick to it 100% no matter how badly it turns out. You don't walk out on your teammates (you don't even threaten to either).

I'd walk away if my boss called a staff meeting and belittled me in fron tof everyone. Even moreso if I was a footballer and my integrity was called into question y a man claiming I faked injury.

ZENER

The mods should change the title of this thread.

Keano is a legend.
Keano for manager.
Thanks for the memories Roy.

ZEN

Pigman II

Stekelly wrote:

I'd walk away if my boss called a staff meeting and belittled me in fron tof everyone. Even moreso if I was a footballer and my integrity was called into question y a man claiming I faked injury.

Would ya. Aren't ya very precious then.

Guy:Incognito

Pigman II wrote:

Would ya. Aren't ya very precious then.

What an adult reply. Congratulations.


I assume you'd just accept what was said and ask for more?

Pigman II

Stekelly wrote:

I assume you'd just accept what was said and ask for more?

If I wanted to play the WorldCupFinals or cared about playing for my country half as much as RoyKeane CLAIMS he does then yes I would. MMcC could do or say whatever the hell he liked about me as long as the net result was I was out there playing and captaining my country vs Cameroon on match day1.

But obviously you being the expert on acting like an adult would just storm off in a huff.

The Muppet

Pigman II wrote:

If I wanted to play the WorldCupFinals or cared about playing for my country half as much as RoyKeane CLAIMS he does then yes I would. MMcC could do or say whatever the hell he liked about me as long as the net result was I was out there playing and captaining my country vs Cameroon on match day1.

But obviously you being the expert on acting like an adult would just storm off in a huff.

Mind you don't fall from that lofty position you are taking.

Most people (especially those of us with a backbone) would react angrilly to abuse, especially if said abuse was aired publically in front of all your work colleagues.

Pigman II

Well then I guess if you're still going through life caring so much about what people say about you to the extent that it jepordises what you are trying to achieve in life then either you don't care much about what you are trying to achieve or you are as weak-willed and emotionally-brittle as Keane.

yop

First off best of luck to Roy, thanks for the 100% you have given to the Irish shirt, shame we may not see the likes of you again for another 10 years, you are up there in the top 5 Irish players, without a doubt.

2nd, I will again echo that the title of this thread be changed by the mods, or a reason given to us why this title does not cause offense