Educate Together funding campaign.

Nevyn

http://www.educatetogether.ie/

Educate Together urgently needs Core State Funding

Educate Together opens, develops and manages multi-denominational primary schools on behalf of the State

These are non fee-paying schools which provide equality to all children regardless of social, cultural or religious background

All families should have the choice of sending their children to a multi-denominational school within a reasonable distance of their home. This is an essential feature of a modern democratic society

However without Core State Funding Educate Together will shortly be forced to reduce its operations and plans for expansion. This will have devastating implications for the future of Irish education.

Please do take the time to go to the site and send emails to
the Minister for Education and Science
the Minister for Finance
and the Taoiseach.

OfflerCrocGod

Why is it's funding being cut off? Sorry it's not being cut off........only 20% is coming from the goverment and it's a free schooling board? Wow :eek: That is impresive on their part I can't believe that our entire primary school system is totally ****ing volunteer based! NO ****ING WONDER kids that have not been [strike]indoctrinated[/strike] baptized are finding it harder to get into schools. The majority are ****ing controlled by the ****ing church! :eek: How the **** is this **** being allowed? I can't believe it!

Primary education is amazingly important not only for the kids but for the entire ****ing country how the **** is this shambles allowed to continue! Why the **** are we subsidizing our ****ing farmers when our Education system is in such a MESS; I've always wondered why primary schools are in such a state in this country compared to the secondary schools and the rest of Europe......no bloody ****ing wonder when they don't even get a fraction of funding from the goverment.

mountainyman

While I completely agree that education should be secular, EducateTogether is a con.

It is a means for middle class parents to isolate their kids from the communties they are part of.

Kids names have to be put down for these schools at birth, effectively depriving working class kids of the chance to attend.

They may be useful in the north but down here they are a means of social isolation and of gentrification.

RainyDay

mountainyman wrote:

Kids names have to be put down for these schools at birth, effectively depriving working class kids of the chance to attend.

The requirement to put kids names down early is not an EducateTogether rule - it's simply a question of supply & demand. They have very few school places and lots of parents looking for places, so if you don't get your name down early, you don't get a place.

Can you please explain why you think this requirement 'deprives' working class kids?

ArthurDent

mountainyman wrote:

While I completely agree that education should be secular, EducateTogether is a con.

It is a means for middle class parents to isolate their kids from the communties they are part of.

Kids names have to be put down for these schools at birth, effectively depriving working class kids of the chance to attend.

They may be useful in the north but down here they are a means of social isolation and of gentrification.

There are no Educate Together Schools in the north - there are integrated primary schools but their ethos is not that of the ET sector

And I'd love to here how they are a means of social isolation and gentrification - do tell please. Have you first hand experience of this?

Both my kids attend an ET school, I certainly haven't seen this, in fact part of the reason I chose this school for my kids was so that the could mix with kids from as many different cultures/religion/backgrounds as possible.

You are correct in saying that you need kids names down in the schools as early as possible, but this is due to a first come first served policy (in most ET schools) and would not be the case if they weren't oversubscribed - ie the Govt got off its backside and provided more multi or non-denominational schools.

mountainyman

ArthurDent wrote:

And I'd love to here how they are a means of social isolation and gentrification - do tell please. Have you first hand experience of this?
QUOTE]
In order to get your kids into an ET school you have to put their names down at birth. It is like Clongowes and Blackrock. Working class parents don't put their kids names down for schools at birth. As such they are de facto middle class only.

ArthurDent wrote:

Both my kids attend an ET school, I certainly haven't seen this, in fact part of the reason I chose this school for my kids was so that the could mix with kids from as many different cultures/religion/backgrounds as possible.
QUOTE]
How many cultures/ religion/ backgrounds?
Other than middle class Irish lapsed catholics how many are there?

ArthurDent

mountainyman wrote:

ArthurDent wrote:

And I'd love to here how they are a means of social isolation and gentrification - do tell please. Have you first hand experience of this?
QUOTE]
In order to get your kids into an ET school you have to put their names down at birth. It is like Clongowes and Blackrock. Working class parents don't put their kids names down for schools at birth. As such they are de facto middle class only.

ArthurDent wrote:

Both my kids attend an ET school, I certainly haven't seen this, in fact part of the reason I chose this school for my kids was so that the could mix with kids from as many different cultures/religion/backgrounds as possible.
QUOTE]
How many cultures/ religion/ backgrounds?
Other than middle class Irish lapsed catholics how many are there?

Clongowes and Blackrock are fee paying schools - ET school open to all non fee paying - apples and oranges.And you although most ET schools offer a first come first served policy and you do have to put their names down early - so what? Is there a rule for "working class", as you put it, parents that they can't register their children?
De facto middle class schools? not here in dublin west pal. The school my kids attend in Lucan has over 50% of children who either they or their parents weren't born in Ireland and come from 33 countries and speak 29 languages at home. I'm pretty sure "middle class lapsed catholics" are in serious minority - but seeing as you are not asked your religion in an ET school, it'd be pretty hard to quantify!

Talliesin

mountainyman wrote:

Working class parents don't put their kids names down for schools at birth.

I pondered how best to respond to this statement for some time, but the best I think really what sums it all up is:

WTF?

Are you saying working class parents somehow don't know about the pressures on school places or what?

Wex1

OfflerCrocGod wrote:

Why is it's funding being cut off? Sorry it's not being cut off........only 20% is coming from the goverment and it's a free schooling board? Wow :eek: That is impresive on their part I can't believe that our entire primary school system is totally ****ing volunteer based! NO ****ING WONDER kids that have not been [strike]indoctrinated[/strike] baptized are finding it harder to get into schools. The majority are ****ing controlled by the ****ing church! :eek: How the **** is this **** being allowed? I can't believe it!

All a load of rubbish - RC church don't pay for sweet f all.

This is an obviously Dub thread. Down here outside the pale we don't have too much trouble getting kids into school but we don't have a choice of schools! RC is it unless we want to travel outside our community. Other religions perfectly welcome - they just abstain from 20 mins religion a day - if parents want! Parents I know are perfectly happy with this arrangement. the above quote is assuming the schools are still operating as they did in the old days - not so... And I haven't a problem with the standard of education mine are getting in Ireland today and all i pay is €15 per term (covers whole family). PS my standards as far as education is concerned are higher than my standards in most other things

OfflerCrocGod

Your standards must be very low. Children should not be sent to schools to be taught "religion"; that sort of thing should be left to parents/family and not to the goverment paid school. So you are saying that the schools are totally paid for by the goverment? So why do people still feel the need to baptise their children to ease their way into schools? They shouldn't be RC schools they should be State schools religion should have NOTHING to do with your state education - especially if our taxes are going to pay for these ****ing schools. I've seen many primary schools which are basically pre-fab buildings with crud facilities, that should not be allowed stand. Personally I'd never be happy sending my children to a shed to be educated with subpar facilities; I'd rather the country had a top-European level primary school service.

RainyDay

mountainyman wrote:

In order to get your kids into an ET school you have to put their names down at birth. It is like Clongowes and Blackrock. Working class parents don't put their kids names down for schools at birth. As such they are de facto middle class only.

This sounds like a huge stereotyping exercise. Have you any data that supports your view that "Working class parents don't put their kids names down for schools at birth"? You do accept that there is nothing to stop any parent of any class registering their child at an Educate Together school at any time - right?

ArthurDent

Wex1 wrote:

All a load of rubbish - RC church don't pay for sweet f all.

This is an obviously Dub thread. Down here outside the pale we don't have too much trouble getting kids into school but we don't have a choice of schools! RC is it unless we want to travel outside our community. Other religions perfectly welcome - they just abstain from 20 mins religion a day - if parents want! Parents I know are perfectly happy with this arrangement. the above quote is assuming the schools are still operating as they did in the old days - not so... And I haven't a problem with the standard of education mine are getting in Ireland today and all i pay is €15 per term (covers whole family). PS my standards as far as education is concerned are higher than my standards in most other things

Wex1 - RC church don't pay for sweet f all, but they do control these schools and their ethos is the one enforced in these schools.

And as for other religions being perfectly welcome - you're right (but if there is a space issue Catholics will be given preference), but is it appropriate that they are "accomodated" by withdrawing for the 40 minutes time allocated each day to religion. What about communion and confirmation years where much of the singing, art and other activities (not just religion time) is dedicated to production of material for these sacrements?

We are a secular state and the government has a responsiblity to provide an education system that is not denominational - surely it is the role of the family and or the church to provide denominational instruction for members of their faith.

And as to it being a "Dub" thing - not so sure.
According to the ET website (www.educatetogether.ie) the areas that parents are working on starting up new schools next are

Baldoyle, Dublin 13
Letterkenny, Co. Donegal
Wexford Town
Galway East
Blessington, Co. Wicklow
Leixlip, Co. Kildare

mountainyman

Rainyday you are absolutely right, there is nothing to stop any parent putting the kids name down. But who actually does. Attend an educate together meeting and the overwhelming majority (by which I mean all and without exception) of those attending are middle class.

Look at the school in Cabra, what proportion of the kids are black or from new immigrant commnunities. What proportion of people in dublin 7 are black or from new immigrant commnunities those kids go to state/rc schools.

In this sense educate together should be called educate apart.

I don't dispute that they are good schools, however if the kids in the ET school were in the local school their parents would be a good influence, by virtue of the fact that they are intensely and rightly interested in their kids education.

Parents make decisions for the good of their own children. No one can fault them for this in fact we regard those who don't with disdain That is why I have VHI though I am against private health care. I see ET as similar. It is good for the individual family but bad for the community, the city and the nation.

MM

ArthurDent

mountainyman wrote:

Rainyday you are absolutely right, there is nothing to stop any parent putting the kids name down. But who actually does. Attend an educate together meeting and the overwhelming majority (by which I mean all and without exception) of those attending are middle class.

Look at the school in Cabra, what proportion of the kids are black or from new immigrant commnunities. What proportion of people in dublin 7 are black or from new immigrant commnunities those kids go to state/rc schools.

In this sense educate together should be called educate apart.

MM

As discussed aboved, the ET school my kids go to in Dublin West has over 50% of its kids from an international background.

Also figures from a recent ET press release
"Educate Together, the national representative body for multi-denominational schools, is currently the fastest growing sector in Irish education, creating a complementary choice in primary education and working with existing providers. This September 4 new Educate Together schools opened, from these over 77% of the children enrolled in the schools have at least one foreign born parent. "
Source
http://www.educatetogether.ie/press_releases/pr050915.html

Educate apart - hmmm don't think so.

OfflerCrocGod

mountainyman wrote:

I see ET as similar. It is good for the individual family but bad for the community, the city and the nation.

Wrong; it sets a benchmark for the other schools to aspire to. If there are better public schools then their methods should be used/adopted by the school.

RainyDay

mountainyman wrote:

however if the kids in the ET school were in the local school their parents would be a good influence, by virtue of the fact that they are intensely and rightly interested in their kids education.

Why not look at it the other way? Why not say 'if the parents of the working class kids would only sign up for Educate Together, it would be a more diverse environment'?

mountainyman

If I didn't perceive ET as being almost exclusively middle class I wouldn't be such a crank on the subject. Working class kids don't get in because putting your kids name down for a school at birth is almost exlusively culturally middle class behaviour.

What proportion of ET students don't have a parent who went to university?

RainyDay

Hi MM - I know very little about ET - Two friends of mine have their kids in ET schools, and yes, shock horror, they could both be described as 'middle class'. But you do seem to making broad, sweeping statements about them - do you have anything to back these up?

No offence, but you do seem to have a bit of a chip on your shoulder about this. If we accept (and I'm not sure that we do) that they are middle-class, who's fault is this? Are you suggesting that middle-class parents should not patronise ET schools, simply because working-class parents don't have a culture of registering their children early?

That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

mountainyman

RainyDay wrote:

...you do seem to making broad, sweeping statements about them - do you have anything to back these up?

Only anecdotally, my perception is that ET is almost exculsively middle class.

RainyDay wrote:

... you ... have a bit of a chip on your shoulder about this. ... Are you suggesting that middle-class parents should not patronise ET schools, simply because working-class parents don't have a culture of registering their children early?

Far from it, however I think they should be honest about what ET is.
After all if working class parents can't send their kids to Clongowes whose fault is that?
Don't get me started on so called private schools, they are very heavily subsidised.

As I say I am would abolish the VHI and all private health insurance as well; so my position is at least logically coherent even if based on a false premise (which I don't accept).

MM

PS why can't I get the quotes to work. An answer like 'because you're a moron' while it may be accurate won't be helpful.

ArthurDent

mountainyman wrote:

Only anecdotally, my perception is that ET is almost exculsively middle class.


As I say I am would abolish the VHI and all private health insurance as well; so my position is at least logically coherent even if based on a false premise (which I don't accept).
.

you are basing your argument on a perception that they are almost exclusively (as opposed to earlier when they were "all and without exception")middle class and yet you've been given evidence of Educate Together schools that have over 50% of their kids form an international background and a press release that shows that 77% of children in the 4 newest ET schools have at least one parent not born in Ireland. So just face it - you are not being logical or coherent you might even be accused of being unfairly biased against these types of schools.
So unless you can come up with a better argument that I don't like them because I think they are middle classed without presenting proof to back this, i can't see how you can meaningfully add to this discussion.

RainyDay

mountainyman wrote:

After all if working class parents can't send their kids to Clongowes whose fault is that?
Don't get me started on so called private schools, they are very heavily subsidised.

As I say I am would abolish the VHI and all private health insurance as well; so my position is at least logically coherent even if based on a false premise (which I don't accept).

In all fairness, private schools/hospitals are a totally different story - there is a very clear barrier to entry (i.e. cost) in those cases. There is no barrier to entry for ET schools, other than the 'supply/demand' issue.

mountainyman

As regards parents not being born in Ireland, that proves nothing.

If a kid is half German half Irish it communicates nothing about his families' class background.
Lies damn lies and statistics?

ArthurDent

mountainyman wrote:

As regards parents not being born in Ireland, that proves nothing.

If a kid is half German half Irish it communicates nothing about his families' class background.
Lies damn lies and statistics?

Get over yourself will you? Just admit that you have an irrational problem with these schools and leave well enough alone.
First it was all white lapsed catholics, then all middle class and now you want to know the educational background of the parents, to prove they are university educated. So what - even if that was the case you admit they are good schools, they are non-fee paying, the parent's involved are motivated and they are open to all faiths and none. They deserve to be funded and funded well, end of story.

mountainyman

ArthurDent wrote:

Get over yourself will you? Just admit that you have an irrational problem ... it they are good schools, they are non-fee paying, the parent's involved are motivated and they are open to all faiths and none.

I admit all that you say. I won't get involved in any future ET threads. But I still think I'm right.

RainyDay

mountainyman wrote:

I admit all that you say. I won't get involved in any future ET threads. But I still think I'm right.

Aw jeez, don't shy away from future thread. Diverse opinions are what make any discussion. You may well have a point about the current population of ET schools. However, I'd disagree with you about possible solutions to this issue.

mountainyman

RainyDay wrote:

Aw jeez, don't shy away from future thread. Diverse opinions are what make any discussion.

Nevertheless it would be bad manners for me to keep banging on about educate together every time the subject came up. I don't ring up friends who send their kids to Educate Together schools and give out to them at random. I 'hijacked' this thread as I can now see which was quite bad manners anyway.

loz

mountainyman wrote:

If I didn't perceive ET as being almost exclusively middle class I wouldn't be such a crank on the subject. Working class kids don't get in because putting your kids name down for a school at birth is almost exlusively culturally middle class behaviour.

What proportion of ET students don't have a parent who went to university?

My partner and I didnt go to uni, and our daugher is in an ET school.

b3t4

Working class kids don't get in because putting your kids name down for a school at birth is almost exlusively culturally middle class behaviour.

Isn't having one's child baptised another form of putting their name down for a school in the future? Just because the "putting the name on a list" is hidden behind religion doesn't negate the fact that a baptised child will find it easier to get into the majority of schools in this country.

A.