Property Management Companies

Sizzler

Sorry to state the obvious but why don't some of the posters here STOP paying the Mgt company if you ain't getting the service.

Im copying over a post from another forum...

Heres something that might come in handy though.....when they send their invoice, send a letter back asking for a breakdown of all their charges, when you get it, reply back and say you didnt get X or Y or it wasnt to an acceptable standard. They cant ask you to pay the charge if you have an open query on it
Secondly when you have exhausted that (this really depends how good they are at credit control) but when they get 'ancy about the unpaid bill, tell them you're skint and you can only afford to pay €10 a week! You are demonstrating an effort pay, you arent refusing, thats the subtle difference. No legal challenge there ! They cant take you to court for that

antoinolachtnai

No, you cannot do that.

For one thing, service charges are paid in advance, not in arrears.

For another, the lease requires you to pay the service charge.

The biggest issue is that not paying the bill does absolutely nothing to resolve the issue. You will be left with even less money, less services, and possibly no insurance cover. And you will have to pay anyway at the end, with interest, when you sell up.

Hotblack Desiato

Sponge Bob wrote:

Many agents are out of control because all the day to day management company business is left to 2 or 3 individuals with no help who face a pack of negative moaners once a year.

:mad:
I suppose you could say that I'm an "ex-negative moaner" as we used to live in an apartment.

1st year AGM - held in a local hotel in the evening. Wwll attended and although there was plenty of criticism it was constructive, no arguments, developer promised to rectify a lot of outstanding items

End of year 1 - no promises kept by builder, unfinished structures (bin sheds) left on site creating danger for kids, no designated parking as promised, etc.

2nd year AGM - held during working hours. Not surprisingly few can attend and no communication issues from the management company except bills

3rd year AGM - same thing, held during working hours. None of the work promised by the builder in year 1 has been done.

End of year 3 - we buy a house and move out. Solicitor gets our 'unused' portion of the management fee refunded & informs them of sale. They still issue letters in our name not the new owner (our mail is being redirected by An Post). Nearly 4 years after promising it, and after more than a few rows between residents about designated parking they're finally proposing to do something about it. Estate is decaying generally, seems all the owner-occupiers are leaving...

How the hell can residents who have to earn a living participate in the mgt company when they DELIBERATELY hold their AGMs at a time when few can attend? Is that legal?

Paulw

ninja900 wrote:

How the hell can residents who have to earn a living participate in the mgt company when they DELIBERATELY hold their AGMs at a time when few can attend? Is that legal?

Firstly, check the law. The management agent doesn't have to call the AGM, in fact, a quorum of shareholders can actually call the AGM.

If the management agent calls an AGM at an unsuitable date/time then a quorum of shareholders can oppose this and request a date/time suitable.

People can give proxy permission to someone else to vote on their behalf. We did that at our last AGM. 10 people signed over their vote to the resident's association. We used their votes to change some decisions.

People need to stop moaning, and start doing. Form/join your resident's association, start taking action, become a director on the management company, change the management agent, don't just sit back and expect others to do everything.

paulus837

Dub13 wrote:

I think most people agree they are a necessary evil in apartment blocks,its there fees people have a problem with.

What has people really wound up if they are starting to be applied to houses.Imagen owned your own house and paying a management company to run the estate...Thats what taxes are for.

bnjnjkl

antoinolachtnai

Well, some management companies (or possibly their agents) make it impossible for members to call AGMs.

Sizzler

antoinolachtnai wrote:

No, you cannot do that.

For one thing, service charges are paid in advance, not in arrears.

For another, the lease requires you to pay the service charge.

The biggest issue is that not paying the bill does absolutely nothing to resolve the issue. You will be left with even less money, less services, and possibly no insurance cover. And you will have to pay anyway at the end, with interest, when you sell up.

Have you tried it? Not all places are in advance, but even if they are you are entitled to query the retrospective charges before shelling out again. Would you pay eircom for your broadband for the next 2 months in advance if the last two months were pox? I think not

antoinolachtnai

So you think that making your management company insolvent, allowing all the safety systems to go out of order, not being insured, and making the apartments unsaleable will help the situation?

Sizzler

antoinolachtnai wrote:

So you think that making your management company insolvent, allowing all the safety systems to go out of order, not being insured, and making the apartments unsaleable will help the situation?

If you are thinking of moving obviously this isnt an option

If you are trying to gee them up then it IS a road you can go down.
Don't think your mgt fee alone will put them into insolvency, if it did then you SHOULD be worried :eek:

Insurance, bollix to that, its buildings, who gives a hoop, whats the odds of the place being hit by a tornado or burnt to the ground? Pretty slim I would suggest, as long as you have your contents insured you should sleep safe at night.

Paulw

Sizzler wrote:

Insurance, bollix to that, its buildings, who gives a hoop, whats the odds of the place being hit by a tornado or burnt to the ground? Pretty slim I would suggest, as long as you have your contents insured you should sleep safe at night.

What sort of a fool are you???? A simple fire can set a whole block alight, and then you have no home. Sure, you have your contents insured and can claim that back, but you have no home, no building insurance, and still have a mortgage to pay. That's really smart !!

It is up to residents to take control and take responsibility. Too many residents sit back, moan, but do nothing. You have plenty of things you can do, all within your own control. The home owners own the management company.

99/100 it's the management agent acting up and not doing their work. Hold an AGM and replace them. Contact the bank where your funds are, and inform them that the agent is no longer responsible and to terminate all transactions without the expressed consent of the directors.

Sizzler

Paulw wrote:

What sort of a fool are you???? A simple fire can set a whole block alight, and then you have no home. Sure, you have your contents insured and can claim that back, but you have no home, no building insurance, and still have a mortgage to pay. That's really smart !!

LOL ! OK, show me how many apartment blocks that have been burnt to the ground by a "simple fire" in this calendar year....:o

I tell you whats smarter again, don't buy a place to live that attracts a management fee as it invariably becomes a nightmare , your experience would seem to underpin that.

Im sure theres plenty of other ways to spend 1K a year

Paulw

In the last year we have had two fires in our complex, both resulting in structural damage. The fires were arson, kids messing outside, but still.

People go on and on about the problems they have, but yet all they need to do is actually take control.

mfodonnell

Hi everyone,

If you would like to compare how your management company is doing against others, please get in touch with me directly.

I've a Benchmarking Report that can compare your costs with other Companies who have contributed. Obviously, the lack of transparency across the city is leaving owners worried and concerned that they're being ripped off, even in the Recession.

I managed a 60+ complex in south dublin for 4 years as a Board Director, with the usual hassles of chasing defaulting members, liaising with the management agent, deciding on fee levels, preparing next years budget, other project work and running AGM/EGMs.

The more people who contribute, the more accurate an up-to-date I can give you. While I can get most of your company's costs and expenses off the CRO website, I'd need a few other details to give you a decent comparison with others. I've a short questionaire that I'd send you.

You will be able to use these findings at your next AGM or if you are a Board member, discussions with your management agent.

You'll appreciate there is a small admin fee for this work, but given that I'm trying to help others across Dublin, it will only be a nominal amount.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Mike

tommy21

mfodonnell wrote: »

Hi everyone,

If you would like to compare how your management company is doing against others, please get in touch with me directly.

I've a Benchmarking Report that can compare your costs with other Companies who have contributed. Obviously, the lack of transparency across the city is leaving owners worried and concerned that they're being ripped off, even in the Recession.

I managed a 60+ complex in south dublin for 4 years as a Board Director, with the usual hassles of chasing defaulting members, liaising with the management agent, deciding on fee levels, preparing next years budget, other project work and running AGM/EGMs.

The more people who contribute, the more accurate an up-to-date I can give you. While I can get most of your company's costs and expenses off the CRO website, I'd need a few other details to give you a decent comparison with others. I've a short questionaire that I'd send you.

You will be able to use these findings at your next AGM or if you are a Board member, discussions with your management agent.

You'll appreciate there is a small admin fee for this work, but given that I'm trying to help others across Dublin, it will only be a nominal amount.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Mike

So just to clarify, you are in fact a representative of a management company?

mfodonnell

Hi Tommy21,

Thanks for your posting.

To clarify:
a) I am a private apartment owner, and thus a member of a Management Company.
b) I am no longer a Board Director, due to work pressures.
c) I am not affiliated to a Management Agent (e.g. Wyse, ODPM etc.).

I hope this helps.

Kind regards,

Mike

tommy21

mfodonnell wrote: »

Hi Tommy21,

Thanks for your posting.

To clarify:
a) I am a private apartment owner, and thus a member of a Management Company.
b) I am no longer a Board Director, due to work pressures.
c) I am not affiliated to a Management Agent (e.g. Wyse, ODPM etc.).

I hope this helps.

Kind regards,

Mike

11th July 2010

Dear Mr. Mike O'Donnell

I fear I may have misjudged you.

Your sincerely
Tommy21

mfodonnell

Further to the above, I'd a very helpful discussion with the moderator who was (rightly) concerned that I'd charge a fee to examine an apartment complex's accounts in order to compare it with others.

The objective is to examine your costs and compare them with others; giving you a cost per apartment.

If you have a copy of your most recent accounts already, I can go through them for FREE. I'd have a few additional questions which aren't detailed in the accounts.

Otherwise, the nominal amount I'd charge would be €7.50 to download your complex's accounts off the CRO website, covering the most recent accounts, B1 Annual Return and B10 Director changes Form showing who the legal contact is for your Management Company. (Each download costs €2.50). The amount would be repaid to me via Paypal.

Send me a private message with your contact email if you'd like to be part of this. After we've about 10-20 complexes examined, we'll post the results online here.

Best regards,

M.

terrymc3

Hi Guys,
i owned an apartment in limerick about 5 yrs ago i sold up and bought a house. when i moved into the apt i was told the management co would be in touch re fees etc as a new co was taking over. i never heard from them or received a bill ever. as far as i was concerned the building was never maintained the lift never worked for the whole 3 yrs i lived there the front door was always broken so any1 could walk in and before each showing when i was selling i had to sweep the halls myself. also for a period of 1 month there was no electricty in the halls and i had to use a flash lamp. the auctioneer that sold it said i would have got an extra €10k if the building wasnt so crap. when it was sold i was advised the managers of the building had not renewed their contact (2 wks b4 the sale) so my solictior held the payment and legaly would have to hold it for 5 yrs. today i got a solictiors letter demanding €3250 and will apply for their legal fees against me in court. the new management co also cant supply bills from the old co. i do have a letter from the auctioneer stating the building was run down and cost me several sales........surely i have a case?? or is it a case of tough u have to pay?

any feedback guys would be great
thanks
Terry

pinkypinky

That's a very unfortunate situation but since I presume you signed a lease with the management company when you originally purchased the apartment, then yes you are liable. However, given the circumstances, I would try to negotiate only paying some of the fees.

antoinolachtnai

They are a bit late coming after an 8-year-old invoice that they can't actually produce a copy of. The purchaser really should have checked that this was paid before taking over the lease. I wouldn't think the state of the building would be of much concern one way or the other.

One for the solicitor really though.

Paulw

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

One for the solicitor really though.

Definitely one for the solicitor, however, you should have made sure all your debts and bills were paid in full when selling.

In this case, while you may argue, you are liable for all management fees up until the point where the sale was completed.

antoinolachtnai

He might be liable in principle, but in practice there might be some real difficulties in law with collecting the money. But it depends on the exact dates and the lease.

terrymc3

I was advised not to pay as there was no management co at the time of the sale however my solicitor held the fees back from the purchase price and legally has to hold them for 6 yrs now 5 yrs later I'm being brought to court.
the state of the building was as follows: no lock on front door for the full time i lived there and we had homeless sleeping in the halls, lift never worked EVER. halls might have been swept once every 2-3 months. for a period of 2 months halls had no esb and i had to use a flashlight to come and go. the only thing that was done was the bin collection.
i asked for an invoice from the company that managed the place while i lived there so i could see a breakdown on where the money was spent(as i never ever received and form of invoice or bill while i was there) and the new management co sent me their charges for 2007 (i moved out in dec 2006). i replied stating they were not in charge then and could i get invoices for the dates in question to which i got no reply. in court now in 4 wks!

surely someone somewhere was in court in a similar situation??????

in my opinion its like agreeing to pay €10 to wash your car and arriving back to a manky car with a €10 bill!

gerrycollins

I think the biggest issue here is the way the system workes. i was responsible for a property where no management agent was appointed(we were the management company along with the developer who retained x amount of units) and after I left there was one appointed and they started chasing me for the amounts racked up However in total about €10k was spent on the place 8k of which I paid directly myself to the service providers.

As far as I concerned at the end of the day as a person responsible for paying the fees you are only obliged to pay the running costs to your complex. normally your fees are calculated a year in advance.

If no costs were racked up then there is nothing to pay for, now there are some issue with accountancy fees,insurance and such which do need to be paid etc to keep everything in order even if its to clear a backlog, however Im finding talking to people that builders who are still somehow involved in buildings or the management there of are chasing what ever money they can get their hands on and using bullying tactics to get it.

Your solicitors best course of action now is to offer to pay the actual portion of fees(invoiced) that your apartment is supposed to pay however only for actual work done I cannot see a judge disagreeing with this as while you have agreeded to pay for the service you have not never benefitted from it. Each year at an agm it should be pointed out that the funds are in the red or black becasue of such and such, if there is a surplus it should be taken off next years tally or the reverse if in debt. Normally your fees include a few "just in case" funds which IMO is a way of putting cash into someones else pocket so I would exclude these in any calculations when paying back fees.

good luck

mbiking123

People may find the book " The Essential guide to apartment living in ireland " by Robert Gogan useful. He was originally a barrister as I find his book very good

Up to you, cost me 15.00 euro

mbiking123

I was advised not to pay as there was no management co at the time of the sale however my solicitor held the fees back from the purchase price and legally has to hold them for 6 yrs now 5 yrs later I'm being brought to court.
the state of the building was as follows: no lock on front door for the full time i lived there and we had homeless sleeping in the halls, lift never worked EVER. halls might have been swept once every 2-3 months. for a period of 2 months halls had no esb and i had to use a flashlight to come and go. the only thing that was done was the bin collection.
i asked for an invoice from the company that managed the place while i lived there so i could see a breakdown on where the money was spent(as i never ever received and form of invoice or bill while i was there) and the new management co sent me their charges for 2007 (i moved out in dec 2006). i replied stating they were not in charge then and could i get invoices for the dates in question to which i got no reply. in court now in 4 wks!

something seems wrong there alright, solicitor would seem to be doing something unusual in your case. By law you must pay management fees. If man company is successful you will be in stubbs gazette which affects your credit rating

Management company by law need accounts audited and are given at AGM

You moved out, I take it you still own it in which case you must still pay management fees until sold. You cannot sell until the management company is fully paid up

If you rented the property its a different story as its the landlords problem, but he/she could chase you personally

If court finds in favour of management company you also pay interest and possibly all legal fees

mbiking123

i owned an apartment in limerick about 5 yrs ago i sold up and bought a house. when i moved into the apt i was told the management co would be in touch re fees etc as a new co was taking over. i never heard from them or received a bill ever. as far as i was concerned the building was never maintained the lift never worked for the whole 3 yrs i lived there the front door was always broken so any1 could walk in and before each showing when i was selling i had to sweep the halls myself. also for a period of 1 month there was no electricty in the halls and i had to use a flash lamp. the auctioneer that sold it said i would have got an extra €10k if the building wasnt so crap. when it was sold i was advised the managers of the building had not renewed their contact (2 wks b4 the sale) so my solictior held the payment and legaly would have to hold it for 5 yrs. today i got a solictiors letter demanding €3250 and will apply for their legal fees against me in court. the new management co also cant supply bills from the old co. i do have a letter from the auctioneer stating the building was run down and cost me several sales........surely i have a case?? or is it a case of tough u have to pay?

few months late -sorry

Do you mean that there was a change to the managing agent that was managing the management company ?

They should have indemnity insurance, possibly you can claim for some commerial neglect ?

dudara

Best suited to Accomodation & Property

Mods - you may want to close this thread as it is an old one that keeps coming back to life.

dudara

the groutch

imo, unless it's a gated community which the council don't have immediate access to, nobody should have to pay these fees for a house

Paulw

the groutch wrote: »

imo, unless it's a gated community which the council don't have immediate access to, nobody should have to pay these fees for a house

If it's in the contracts, then you have to pay it. Simple as that.

In most cases, it's the council, through planning permission applications that force developments to have a management company.