Liam Lawlor killed in moscow car crash

MrJoeSoap

As I said in the After Hours thread:

Given what the Independent newspapers have done, I would at least expect the editor to step down. Not even people of Liam Lawlors low morals deserve what they have done to him.

swiss

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Given what the Independent newspapers have done, I would at least expect the editor to step down. Not even people of Liam Lawlors low morals deserve what they have done to him.

I don't feel sorry for Liam Lawlor, but I do feel sorry for the woman who was in the crash whose reputation was impugned by unsubstantiated reporting, and for his bereaved family, who don't need these kind of aspersions being cast on their deceased relative.

The Sunday Independent definitely deserves to be criticised for this kind of unconfirmed sensationalist reporting. Based on the facts as they were then known, there was some evidence that indicated that the woman could be a prostitute, such as her relative age, the area in which the car crashed and the lack of an apparant legitimate reason as to why she would be there. However, you can't run a story like this unless you're pretty certain of your facts, and even if the Russian police suspected that she might be a prostitute, that is all it was - a suspicion.

Suffice it to say I find this disappointing, I think the quality of it's [The Sunday Independents] editorial coverage varies depending on the columnist and is usually quite high, but the nature of this story and the manner in which it was reported is hugely damaging for the paper, and deservedly so.

Lemming

Just a question to throw out ....

Exactly what was a 16 year old (??) doing in his car? Are eastern europeans on an accelerated career path or something? Out of school at 12, college by 13, graduate as a translator by 16?

Pardon me for being a cynic, but the age of the girl in the back of that car (assuming she was of course a 16 year old) tends to not speak, but scream, volumes.

MrJoeSoap

Todays reports variously claim she was 28, 32, etc....

Lemming

What's the age reported by the Moscow police?

seamus

Aye, they're all now saying late twenties, early thirties. It's a strange one alright. That said, it is possible to confuse grown women for girls. My 25-year-old girlfriend regularly gets mistaken for 16/17, and gets asked for ID.

Lemming

seamus wrote:

Aye, they're all now saying late twenties, early thirties. It's a strange one alright. That said, it is possible to confuse grown women for girls. My 25-year-old girlfriend regularly gets mistaken for 16/17, and gets asked for ID.

Ok, then there is also the question of where is her passport? Since she's not Russian. She's Ukrainian. And according to several Ukrainians that I work with (and have just asked) you still need a passport to travel between the two countries. Just no visa.

So why doesn't she have one?

MrJoeSoap

Not everyone carries their passport everywhere.

Lemming

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Not everyone carries their passport everywhere.

In Moscow you are requierd to carry id - courtesy of a moscovite I work with. IF the police stop you and ask and you can't, you get fined. If you plan to stay in the city more than three days, you have to also register with the city authorities.

The fact that she has no passport (and the inference I took from the statement was that she didn't have one period.) raises a few more questions.

seamus

Lemming wrote:

Ok, then there is also the question of where is her passport? Since she's not Russian. She's Ukrainian. And according to several Ukrainians that I work with (and have just asked) you still need a passport to travel between the two countries. Just no visa.

So why doesn't she have one?

Joe got in there before me. Perhaps she left it in her hotel room or wherever she was staying. I gather whatever the Moscow police said was purely their immediate views. Girl, says she's Ukrainian, they couldn't find a passport on her, didn't get much info from her (was she unconscious/in shock?). Two men dead in the vehicle, both presumably had ID on them.

It is strange though that the girl wouldn't be carrying some form of ID, particularly in as dodgy a country as Russia. Perhaps the inquest today will reveal more.

Lemming

seamus wrote:

Joe got in there before me. Perhaps she left it in her hotel room or wherever she was staying. I gather whatever the Moscow police said was purely their immediate views. Girl, says she's Ukrainian, they couldn't find a passport on her, didn't get much info from her (was she unconscious/in shock?). Two men dead in the vehicle, both presumably had ID on them.

You don't just state someone has no passport if they just don't have it on their person. That's quite a clear statement. Otherwise they'd just be saying they couldn't confirm her identity or some such.

Imposter

The indo also reported this morning (online at least) that she left the hospital, went to a 5-star hotel but has since vanished.

MrJoeSoap

Lemming wrote:

In Moscow you are requierd to carry id - courtesy of a moscovite I work with.

Didn't know that but had a feeling thats why a big deal was made of the passport issue. There could be plenty of reasons why she didn't have it, I'm not going to guess at why.

I have to say, I was in work on Saturday evening and each Saturday around 8pm the Sunday Indo's come in. I am the one who has to sort them out, put the supplements in etc... and I had a good read of the article and posted it here as soon as I got home.

I was sucked in, possibly because it was all I had actually heard of the crash at that stage, and assumed some other papers would be covering the story. I did include the words if and allegedly in all my posts as I was not willing to fully commit myself to the Independent before reading another source. When the Observer/Guardian published a similar piece I began to trust it a bit more, but now, with the benefit of hindsight I can see I should have waited for police quotes and inquests. Having said that, at no point did I believe 100% that the information was clear-cut and at no point did say I say any such thing on here.

I, personally, feel this has taught me a lesson. I feel massively duped by the Sunday Independent and will not be "buying" it any more (I usually take it home for free on a Saturday for the parents). I never really read it myself, as it all seems very much geared towards a section of the population I have no connection nor desire for, but I would read the daily Irish Independent quite frequently. Not any more, however.

I still feel strongly about Liam Lawlor. I still feel he was one of the greediest and most corrupt men to have "graced" this country in recent times. I still show sympathy to his family, especially after what now are being exposed as quite untrue allegations made by Sundays Independent.

I still have no sympathy for Liam Lawlor himself.

Lemming

Lemming wrote:

The fact that she has no passport (and the inference I took from the statement was that she didn't have one period.) raises a few more questions.

Is the point you are trying to make that the Sindo may have been right all along, they may have accidently hit the truth? Or because most reports confirm that (i) she was not a prostitute (ii) she was not a teenager, the best anyone can come up with is that she may be dodgy because she wasn't carrying a passport? What do you think of the coverage in the Sindo?

Lemming

Deleted User wrote:

Is the point you are trying to make that the Sindo may have been right all along, they may have accidently hit the truth? Or because most reports confirm that (i) she was not a prostitute (ii) she was not a teenager, the best anyone can come up with is that she may be dodgy because she wasn't carrying a passport? What do you think of the coverage in the Sindo?

I am commenting on a) Moscow police statements regarding her "legal" status and b) the knowledge of several co-workers who, funnily enough, just so happen to be either Ukrainian or Russian (and Moscovites in particular) and what they've said about being able to identify yourself in Moscow. I'd take their [my co-workers] word over any Irish newspaper columnist on that score any day and only a fool would argue otherwise.

The Sindo can jump for all I care. They went for the easy option and decided to write around innuendo. Why they couldn't press home about her legal status is beyond me. Would make for a much more compelling read. And somethign that couldn't be wriggled out of if caught up in.

All of the above simply raises far more questions than it answers Conor74, whether you want to admit it publically or not.

dbnavan

Look,

I am sorry some people have lost, a family member, maybe a father, husband, grandfather, i dunno his personal life, and while i agree we shouldnt speak ill of the dead, I still find it hard to show him any respect.

To be honest, and this may cause contravesy, but I wonder what the chances are that he faked his own death, couple of people(high profile) said it to me and it was my first thought when I heard. he had the money to do it.... Why was he allowed leave the country anyway if he was involved in the tribunrals?

The man is dead, sorry to his family but thats about it.... he with many others laughed and held 2 fingers up to the irish taxpayers and justice system.

oscarBravo

dbnavan wrote:

...I still find it hard to show him any respect.

Adam said it best: there's no requirement to show him respect. It just shouldn't be all that hard not to show disrespect.

dbnavan wrote:

...I wonder what the chances are that he faked his own death...

:rolleyes:

dbnavan wrote:

Why was he allowed leave the country anyway if he was involved in the tribunrals?

Um, stab in the dark, but maybe involvement in the tribunals doesn't impose any requirement not to leave the country?

Lemming

Lemming wrote:

All of the above simply raises far more questions than it answers Conor74, whether you want to admit it publically or not.

Yeah, that she forgot her papers.

Presumably anyone involved in anything dodgy would at least have the papers bit well covered anyway.

Lemming

Deleted User wrote:

Yeah, that she forgot her papers.

Eh ... no. Bearing in mind that the Moscow authorities are quite strict on this matter it stands out a little more than, say, walking down the street in Dublin and being asked who you are by the Gardai. The /Moscow/ (ie. not Dublin) police report did not say "She had no identity papers on her when challenged". It said she had no passport.

For clarity I will emphasis the final '.'

Do you understand now? Or do I have to draw a diagram for you? :rolleyes:

parsi

murphaph wrote:

The more I think about this the more p!ssed off I get. Lawlor knew soooo much. There will be sooooo many equally corrupt slimeballs breathing much more esily following his death. It was a dissafected mans testimony that opened this whole can of planning worms. Lawlor was in a simlar boat and could have taken a lot of corrupt scum down with him. That won't happen now. :mad:

Maybe the Irish Secret Service contracted the same team as MIwhatever used for Dodi Fayed ? ;-)

Lemming

Lemming wrote:

Do you understand now? Or do I have to draw a diagram for you? :rolleyes:

Scanned through post.

Saw this.

Clearly, you have confused being patronising and trolling with discussing the issues.

I wonder, btw, if it was the same 'Moscow authorities' that confused a professional mother in her late 20s with a teenage hooker? Unlike you, I may be a bit more cynical of their 'information'.

Lemming

Deleted User wrote:

Scanned through post.

Saw this.

Clearly, you have confused being patronising and trolling with discussing the issues.

Said the pot to the kettle.

I wonder, btw, if it was the same 'Moscow authorities' that confused a professional mother in her late 20s with a teenage hooker? Unlike you, I may be a bit more cynical of their 'information'.

As a matter of fact yes it would be the same Moscow authorities that, well funnily enough since not being given any proof of identity (and consequently age) had to judge her based on appearance.

Let me make this really simple for you to understand Conor74 since you seem to be having problems seeing past the FF-tinted glasses you wear.

1. The Moscow authorities require you to carry id at all times. If you don't, you get fined.
2. The Moscow authorities require anyone staying more than three days in the city to register with them (which has the knock-on effect of point #1).
3. Ukraine does not have a no-passport agreement with Russia. Only no-visa. Ukrainians wishing to travel to Russia require a passport.
4. Said girl does not have a passport, as stated by the Moscow police (this could reasonably be extended to include any other form of id also but at this point is inaccurate. The point still stands - no passport = bad)
5. No passport = violation of point#3
6. No id = violation of point#1 (and possibly #2)

So ... which of those above points would you like to argue against?

Victor

I wonder was she already in Moscow or did she come throught the airport? Didn't I see reference to two sets of luggage?

Calina

Lemming wrote:

1. The Moscow authorities require you to carry id at all times. If you don't, you get fined.

So too do the French, Belgian and German authorities to name but three, but it doesn't seem to worry a lot of Irish people wandering around Paris, Brussels and Munich without their ids.

Lemming

Lemming wrote:

Said the pot to the kettle.

Oh yes, the guy who took umbrage and ran off to the mods!!

I didn't hear from them afterwards - I presume that says a lot about what you perceived as trolling.

Don't worry, between myself and yourself, while you like the patronising tone, I won't get all touchy about it and lodge complaints. Mods have enough to be doing already, and as far as I can see they do it very well here on what must be trying circumstances, because nothing raises hackles quite like politics.

Lemming wrote:

4. Said girl does not have a passport, as stated by the Moscow police

The point I made was that Moscow authorities got the bit about the hooker/16 year old wrong. If they said she does not have a passport, I wouldn't take it as gospel tbh. I certainly wouldn't draw as many conclusions from it as you have, other then that the 'Moscow authorities' are no great source of facts on which one could base any satisfactory conclusions.

sceptre

Conor, Lemming, knock it off. Last I checked this wasn't the pissing on each other board.

Deleted User wrote:

I didn't hear from them afterwards - I presume that says a lot about what you perceived as trolling.

Never presume.

sceptre

sceptre wrote:

Conor...knock it off.

Wrist duly slapped.

Consider it knocked off.

Lemming

Calina wrote:

So too do the French, Belgian and German authorities to name but three, but it doesn't seem to worry a lot of Irish people wandering around Paris, Brussels and Munich without their ids.

Are the French, Belgian and Germans likely to either fine and/or drag you down the station on a frequent basis?

Do the French, Belgian or Germans require you to register in a given city if you intend to stay over three days? (this is in addition to border control notice). Probably not. Moscow does. And they are quite stringent on these measures.

A Dub in Glasgo

Dragging this back on topic and out of the playground, is there any evidence that Lawlor was in a red light district or that the woman in the car done anything wrong?

Zombrex

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Dragging this back on topic and out of the playground, is there any evidence that Lawlor was in a red light district or that the woman in the car done anything wrong?

No, it is the just the Independent being idiots, big surprise.

Ask the Russian police was this girl a hooker they will say yes. Ask the Russian was she a big flying elephant with a cocaine problem they will say yes. Shoddy reporting by the Indo, but really coming from the paper that is a tabliod in all but page size do we expect much better?