Anti-Americanism/Irish Neutrality

lazydaisy

I realise that these could be under two different threads. But I suspect they are linked. Maybe I'm wrong.

Does anyone else feel the anti-Americanism in Ireland is hysteria or at least partially so? It just seems so automatic and visceral, and that there is an unspoken censorship of defending the US or Ireland's assistance whether it be financial or through the use of ports and intelligence.

dahamsta

What anti-americanism? Perhaps you mean the current dislike of the current american adminisatration, which isn't the same thing?

Ray777

The phrase 'Anti-Americanism' is basically nothing more than a slur, used (in the absence of any kind of intellectual debate) against people who despise the actions of a warmongering, power-hungry administration that shows nothing but pure contempt for international law.

Memnoch

Ray777 wrote:

The phrase 'Anti-Americanism' is basically nothing more than a slur, used (in the absence of any kind of intellectual debate) against people who despise the actions of a warmongering, power-hungry administration that shows nothing but pure contempt for international law.

QFT

lazydaisy

Well, I'm using it and you [Ray 777] have no idea how I feel about the war or the people who oppose it. Your response is just more evidence of what I originally posted. And it is more than a slur. It is a reality. By anti-americanism I mean both the dislike of the administration which has permeated into a dislike of the people. By anti-americanism I mean the unsolicited and undeserved vitreol I and I am sure other people with American accents get when they are minding their own business at a Christmas party or having a quit drink in a pub or doing any other kind of mundane task. It's more than dislike, it's something else that is much deeper. And it has been around before Iraq. I'm not the only one who has noticed. I've listed several of many articles on the subject below if anyone is interested.

http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2005/01/23/story1689.asp

http://www.nuzhound.com/Irish_Eagle/articles/2003/jan31_anti-Americanism__Irish-Voice.php

http://www.rte.ie/news/2001/1125/harney.html

http://www.irishabroad.com/news/irishinamerica/columnists/intelligencer/intelligencer-050921.asp

Memnoch

well it's no surprise that some of the ill will towards the government spills over.

In terms of world opinion the american government and as a result the american nation are at an all time low.

I guess people can't help but stretch this to the citizens of the country that after all did elect those leaders and stand by their actions. Even though that's wrong.

The problem is that a collection of individuals can do terrible things even though individuals themselves can be nice family people.

And you're right, it's not dislike it is much deeper. I'd say it's a mixture of anger, frustration and guilt.

At the end of the day when people see what's happening around them and they see the way the american media propagandises a lot of things it breeds anger. Most people however are powerless to do anything about it that would make any difference and I guess it that anger and frustration builds up, so when they see an "american" it all comes out, as a vent of their feelings. I'm not saying this is right, but I think this is probably the explanation behind it.

It's silly and pointless to give out to or verbally abuse individual americans OR people with an american accent. Though I must admit that whenever I am around americans who are friends of mine it's hard to not launch into a diatribe about their government and what their country is up to.

I guess what i'm trying to say is that I understand where you are coming from but I don't know what the solution could be. These kind of sentiments are likely to prevail and spread if things continue as they are at the moment. But you gotta admit the american "we don't give sh*t about those eurinals" attitude doesn't help much.

Ray777

Ray777 wrote:

The phrase 'Anti-Americanism' is basically nothing more than a slur, used (in the absence of any kind of intellectual debate) against people who despise the actions of a warmongering, power-hungry administration that shows nothing but pure contempt for international law.

Thats essentially correct.

Back in September 2001, this country ground to a halt and had a day of mourning for those that died in New York.
A few years of the Bush administration later and I doubt the same thing would happen again.
Thats an evolution, based on people forming opinions on what they think is wrong.
I suspect , one wouldn't get a million or more people into the Phoenix park today either for Pope Benedict, like was the case in '79 for JP2.

Memnoch wrote:

At the end of the day when people see what's happening around them and they see the way the american media propagandises a lot of things it breeds anger.

I'd understand saying that about the likes of fox news but the rest of the mainstream U.S media have grown as tired of Bush as the voters have.

Have a look at this thread if you dont believe me and particularally Hobbes's link.

Hagar

I don't think it's as simple as saying the Americans are nice people but their Government are bad people.

The American elected and re-elected their leaders. You can't absolve the individuals from the actions of the group.

The American phrases "Government of the people by the people"
and "My country right or wrong" spring to mind. You cannot seperate the American people from the actions of their leaders.

The American Empire is expanding the way the Roman Empire did. "Knell before us or die"

Dev sucessfully defended our neutrality and ports against pressure from the British during WWII now some muppet will sell them out for a few jobs in a factory that will close as soon as they can get cheaper labour elsewhere.

Hobbes

lazydaisy wrote:

Well, I'm using it and you [Ray 777] have no idea how I feel about the war or the people who oppose it.

Your links are somewhat misplaced. Ignoring the 2001 news report, the US administration try to wrap themselves up in the American flag and claim that disrespecting them is disrespecting the USA. It isn't.

Don't know where you dragged that Kathrina story up from as thats the first I heard of it, and the Irish had no problems giving money to it. In fact if you wander through the boards you would see more complaints of why not more?

By anti-americanism I mean both the dislike of the administration which has permeated into a dislike of the people.

Both? So to point out that Bush is a complete tool is somehow against America? Bare in mind nearly 50% of America at the time of voting also thought he wasn't a capable president and currently is running at 63% think hes better off gone.

Add to that his administration being indicted for corruption and possible treason charges, getting no bid contracts to rip the tax payers off, showing how bad of a leader during the Kathrina crisis (hell of a job Brownie). That most jobs are now going to China/India, US is heavily in debt to China and the middle east, and numerous Americans are dead/wounded because they were sent into a war on a lie. Also baby boomers are set to retire, US is going to be looking at a huge employment shortage and no way to pay the retirement funds.

How can anyone sit there and say that this person and administration is representative of the US?!

And it has been around before Iraq. I'm not the only one who has noticed.

Well to be fair the USA has been dicking around in numerous other countries long before Bush came into power (even in the EU). For example "November 17" terrorist group came into force due to US intervention in an illegal coup in Greece to oust an democratically elected president. Quite a few Americans died because of that (not to mention lots of Greeks dead/tortured).

It is only with Bush that the US might actually notice what it is doing outside its own country. At the end of the day, you elect the idiots. You can't absolve yourself from the blame for that. No the feeling is less of blame but more of how can people be so blind to what an administration is doing in thier name.

Hatred for Americans? More like feeling sorry for them that they can't do anything about the mess their country is in.

Hagar

Hagar wrote:

I don't think it's as simple as saying the Americans are nice people but their Government are bad people.

The American elected and re-elected their leaders. You can't absolve the individuals from the actions of the group.

You'd have to say the same of the British people then if you are going to look at it like that.
High turnout and over half the electorate voted for parties in support of the Iraq war.
You can absolve most individuals tbh.
It wouldnt surprise me if the percentage of eligible voters that turned out in the last US election was way less than the percentage that turned out in Iraq.

The point I'm making is, that if you count naders votes,half the U.S electorate were very opposed to the Bush agenda and now its over 60%

Zombrex

lazydaisy wrote:

It just seems so automatic and visceral,

I agree with you ... it is a number of factors

These are generalisations of course, they are stereotypes, I am just explaining how Irish view Americans, not justifying it cause it is nonsense.

1 - Americans are arrogant. Irish people, and other Europeans, often find Americans arrogant when dealing with social situations, and often ignorant of different cultures. Americans often seem to think they are in a theme park when in Ireland, as if the country exists to entertain them on holiday. The often tend to think that we should all be in awe of the fact that they are American, and as such come from the "best f**king country in the world!"

2 - Americans are uncool If you see someone clapping in a cinema, or over the time laughing at something that wasn't that fun, or saying loudly "that awesome", they are probably American. Irish people are obsessed with not associating themselves with something that is embarrassing to other Irish people. It wouldn't be surprising to see Irish people slowly backing away and shaking their heads as American tourist splitting his sit laughing at the dancing leprechauns on Grafton St.

3- Americans stand out like a sore thumb The general rule in fashion is that middle America is 5 years behind fashion trends in New York/UK/Ireland. And that is only the young people. Middle ages Americans could be picked out of a crowded street a mile away. And this goes back to Irish people not like being embarrassed or being associated with something they feel is embarrassing. I remember in college being in a line for a club with an American guy who was wearing completely different fashion than the rest of us. Some drunk lads behind us started slagging his clothes, and once in the club most of the Irish people we were with make a bee-line for the far side of the club.

4 - Americans are stupid They ask stupid questions about stuff, seem unable to place Australia on the map, or understand the concept of irony. Plus they ask ridiculous questions like "Did you lose a lot of family in the Irish famine"

Really a lot of the uncomfortableness that Irish people feel around Americans is due to our own issues with how to act in social situations. Behaviour that might seem perfectly fine in American is considered embarrasing in Ireland, because we as a culture are obsessed with not embarrasing ourselfs.

In reality American is just like any other country, it has some idiots assh*les and nice friendly people.

Memnoch

the problem with using elections to gauge public opinion is that people are voting on more than just one issue.

Saying that because a majority of brits voted Labour in or voted for Labour /conservative meant they support the iraq war is ludicrous. The sad truth is that the Iraq war isn't even an issue for large portions of the electorate, that are more concerned with local issues, NHS funding, university fees etc etc etc. Just as in america many voters care more about gay marriage (???) and other such "moral" issues.

To say that re-election is tantamount to support for the war is basically saying that endorsement = apathy/ignorance. WHo knows.. maybe it does?

The Church is a great example of the above. The Pope himself spoke out against the iraq war and all violence in general, yet still backed Bush as a champion of god. That's the thing with wedge issues. What issue is most important varies from individual to individual.

A lot of Brits would vote labour because at least they aren't the conservatives.

bonkey

lazydaisy wrote:

Does anyone else feel the anti-Americanism in Ireland is hysteria or at least partially so?

Yes, but no more so than the declarations of Anti-Americanism.

There's people on all sides who get carried away. The mistake - on either side - is to fail to distinguish between these and the remainder who are more considered in their opinions.

It just seems so automatic and visceral,

Again, no more so than the "You're criticising / opposed to these actions taken by the American Administration, ergo you're anti-American" school.

and that there is an unspoken censorship of defending the US or Ireland's assistance whether it be financial or through the use of ports and intelligence.

Funnily, I see this "unspoken censorship" being more of a mix of the media needing to report something other than same-old, same-old, coupled with the government deciding that "out of sight, out of mind" is a far better tactic with an election coming up than actually trying to convince the voters that they were right all along and are still right. If the supporters of the war are being censored, its only in that they fear the democratic reprecussions that could result from reminding those who might otherwise vote for them of an issue which had their blood boiling only 12 months ago.

Personally, I was opposed to the war...principally becaused I didn't believe the US post-war effort would be up to the job, up to and including them pulling out - one way or another - leaving the nation in a worse state with worse prospects for the future.

Now that the war is over, I'm totally opposed to the US pulling out in a situation which will prove my initial fears correct. Unfortunately, however, their current actions don't entirely convince me that they they're heading in a direction that will avoid that eventuality.

So does that make me anti-American? That I want to see them get it right, but fear that they won't, and am critical of whatever I see that to me is heading down the wrong road.

As to the people, I judge Americans like every other people I meet - individually. They have a different culture and educational background to me, but so do most people where I live, so its not something I have a major problem dealing with.

Consider also that 12 months ago, this board was almost exclusively discussing American politics, or international politics in which the US was centre-stage. Today, with the Administration potentially on the brink of facing indictments, with Iraq and Afghanistan far from out of the woods, with new allegations of atrocities by US soldiers (burning of Al Qaeda bodies), with the aftermath of Katrina still unfolding, with the latest allegations against Sudan and all of the rest of it.....the board is almost enitrely focussed on such burning isses as whether or not we'll see a United Ireland in our lifetimes, and other such minutiae of Irish politics.

If this is censorship, then surely it is as much on the side of the critics of the US as with the supporters.

jc

bonkey

Memnoch wrote:

the problem with using elections to gauge public opinion is that people are voting on more than just one issue.

True, but it can happen that a single issue becomes paramount in an election.

It is possible that a government get re-elected or kicked out because of their position on something like a war, but in the majority of cases, it will be more of a mix of domestic issues which sways the day as you say.

The important thing to note is that means saying "the government could be voted out because of the war" does not necessarily lead to "if the government is re-elected, it must therefore also be because of the war". (Same if you reverse the positions, of course).

netwhizkid

I am in favour of full Irish Neutrality and we should have absolutely no involvement with any war or the corrupt Bush administration. I am anti-bush and anti-capitalist. I think american people show the same amount of intellect as your average caged mouse. I am looking forward to when Petroleum runs out as it will bring the downfall of stupid american values and their ultra-right wing religious zealot attitude of we are the greatest and we can steal any countries wealth either through forcing privatisation and globalism or when they can't crack the government of said country, just simply invading it and stealing it like the case of the Iraqi oil. I have pity for the american people as they are basically brainwashed and i am sure many of them would embrace European values, and European intellect rather than American throw away society of McDonald's and 5MPG guzzler SUV for a person weighing 9stone. American views will take decades to repair after what damage Dubya have done to the view of America. And to think i actually felt sorry for the USA on 9/11 and i amongst other thought that bush was doing a good job. Ah well only another 3 years to go and 18mths before their PDs and FF puppets are kicked out here.

Memnoch

Memnoch wrote:

Saying that because a majority of brits voted Labour in or voted for Labour /conservative meant they support the iraq war is ludicrous.

Indeed but I was only commenting on Hagars generalisation and not suggesting that.
Clearly I said if one was to condemn US voters for bringing back a war mongering regime then logic says you apply the same logic to the Brits aswell.
OK they didnt give labour a majority of the votes, but they gave pro Iraq war parties a majority of the votes.

I was talking to a nurse from the states last year who was working in a Dublin Hospital.She said she voted for Bush for several reasons, the war wasnt chief amongst them.

lazydaisy

Hagar you said:

Dev sucessfully defended our neutrality and ports against pressure from the British during WWII now some muppet will sell them out for a few jobs in a factory that will close as soon as they can get cheaper labour elsewhere.

That's not exactly true. Ireland was officially neutral but unofficially helped the allies a lot. One of the many ways they helped was by letting the US use its ports. Part of this was due to a well founded fear that Ireland would have been used by Germany as a flanking nation to invade England and also because Ireland didn't have the resources to defend itself against German occupation. Ireland was more a non belligerant than neutral nation. It was a big part of Dev's foreign policy to make Ireland the bridge between America and Europe.

Hobbes - How are the links misplaced? They seem entirely relevant. How did you not hear about Katrina? I didn't "drag it up". The Irish Voice is a very prominant and widely read paper in the Irish immigrant community in the US. You didn't hear the Vincent Brown show and other media getting on their high horse about the million euro and what a crappy country America is?

And of course criticising the Bush administration or opposition to the war does not equate with anti-Americanism, but the bigotry and prejudices aimed at US citizens does. Just look at Wicknight's list of stereotypes, which are only the tip of the iceberg, as evidenced by some of the perceptions on this thread.

Bonkey - that is unfortunately very true. People do get carried away and don't hear the more considered opinions. They tend to hear the loudest and most repetitive voices. There are a lot of them around however. The I feel sorry for Americans comments are even more ridiculous, superiority complexes disguised as compassion.

Netwhizkid - could you elaborate? What exactly are European values and European intellect?

Hagar

lazydaisy wrote:

One of the many ways they helped was by letting the US use its ports.

I wasn't aware of this. I would be very interested in any details you might have.

netwhizkid

netwhizkid wrote:

I think american people show the same amount of intellect as your average caged mouse.

And you have based this extremely simplified observation and over-generalisation on what study? 'European values and European intellect' have seen Europe plunge the world into war twice in a century when the Europeans have looked to the US to bail it out, while European powers have historically tried to colonise the world. Now while I'm not saying Europe owes the US anything, but let's not get too smug and self satisifed over some supposed intellectual advantage over the Americans.

bonkey

lazydaisy wrote:

Just look at Wicknight's list of stereotypes,

But are they stereotypes, or simply - as he pointed out - cultural differences which the Irish, as a culture, are uncomfortable with?

<edit>
And lets not forget that I am generalising and stereotyping the Irish as much as the Americans here...
</edit>

For example, there does appear to be a relative difference in the knowledge the average US citizen has about the world outside his/her nation and that of the average European. Of course, if we compare more equivalent land-mass sizes, one could ask how much the average European knows of the world outside Europe, and I'm guessing that gap would rapidly close, if indeed it does exist.

If this relative difference does exist, is it inherently wrong to be affected by it? To point it out? Sure, some people will mock Americans because of it, but Americans are no different in having plenty of citizens willing to mock or belittle others for being inferior to some superior Americanness in a similar manner.

which are only the tip of the iceberg, as evidenced by some of the perceptions on this thread.

That, to me, is a statement which risks missing the point at which considered opinion becomes more fanatical or fundamental in nature.

To suggest that there are no strong cultural differences which exist would seem to be unsupportable to me.

To reference these differences and how they effect you doesn't seem unreasonable, as long as one makes it clear they are generalisations (which hopefully means that not only does the poster realise it doesn't apply to all Americans, but doesn't pre-judge Americans on the assumption they will have this trait).

To make comments like "I think american people show the same amount of intellect as your average caged mouse.", on the other hand.......well, its the type of position I couldn't even be bothered dignifying by discussing it in any further detail than to dismiss it.

jc

Hobbes

lazydaisy wrote:

Hobbes - How are the links misplaced? They seem entirely relevant. How did you not hear about Katrina? I didn't "drag it up". The Irish Voice is a very prominant and widely read paper in the Irish immigrant community in the US. You didn't hear the Vincent Brown show and other media getting on their high horse about the million euro and what a crappy country America is?

Well lets examine each one.

You have a news report from 2001. TBH the feeling in Ireland was certainly was to mourn the loss of all that life and Ireland (and the rest of the world) was certainly behind the US up until the "With us, or against us" speech. Even check back through boards around the time.

Irish Eagle is about as intresting and relevant as Ann Coulter. Some how linking Bush = US therefore = Anti-American.

You have another story going on about a single news reporter saying we shouldn't give money to the US (when in fact we sent a lot more then money). One opinion of a news reporter is hardly the opinion of Ireland.

You have another story claiming that the drop in student numbers in the US is due to Anti-Americanism. Actually while that may be part of the factor the major factor is that you have give fingerprints/personal information and queue for hours for an interview to give in depth details of where they will be in the country while there. Add to that if you are arrested you have no rights whatsoever (I'd say Terrorists only, but there have been a number of cases where this has been applied to non-terrorists/students).

Also this Anti-American crap is generally spouted by those who can't actually argue the position and is about as reflective as Bill O'Reilly boycotting the French.

Netwhizkid - could you elaborate? What exactly are European values and European intellect?

Please don't get him started.

dahamsta

Hobbes wrote:

Irish Eagle is about as intresting and relevant as Ann Coulter. Some how linking Bush = US therefore = Anti-American.

I laughed out loud when I read:

I'm not anti-American, but I'm anti-Bush.

As far as I'm concerned, this view is anti-American.

It could actually have been written by Coulter, the hateful bitch. It was certainly written by someone that's either: a) thick; b) a troublemaker; or c) both.

adam

TomF

An interesting thread. It seems the anti-Americanism of some is reciprocated by the anti-Europeanism of others. Here's a snippet from an essay by an American, James K. Glassman, who by no means of measurement could be called stupid, and may be cool and well-dressed as well! Ireland, as a country on the fringe of Europe (maybe Ireland isn't really European at all) gets a free pass from Glassman in his essay.

"Europe, or at least the parts I go to, is a wonderful place to live and to visit. It's beautiful; the food is great; the people are generally warm and relaxed. If there is a greater pleasure than eating a plate of Insalata Caprese (tomatoes, mozzarella, basil and cold-pressed extra-virgin olive oil) on a sunny terrace on the Amalfi Coast with the islands where the Sirens lured Ulysses in the distance, then I haven't found it yet.

But, when it comes to public policy, Europe has taken a wrong turn. Its welfare state has sapped initiative and driven jobs abroad; its treatment of immigrants is shameful; unemployment is in the double digits; health policy is making people sicker; and foreign policy is based on isolationism and moral posturing.

The results are predictable: The countries that use the euro will grow 1.2 percent this year, according to The Economist; the U.S. will grow 3.5 percent. Similar disparity has prevailed for a decade, and Americans today have a living standard about one-third higher. The notion that Europe will be able to compete with resurgent China and India in the next 30 years is laughable.

Certainly, however, there isn't just a single Europe. The countries on the outer edges -- Britain, Poland, Ireland, Portugal, Estonia, and so on -- remain fairly aspirational, leaning in the direction of American liberalism (in the best sense of that word -- a tendency to place freedom, economic and personal, number-one on a list of values). They haven't given in to the smug complacency of France, Germany, Belgium and (I'm sad to say) Spain. Italy, the Netherlands and the Scandinavian countries are somewhere in between.

http://www.techcentralstation.com/102105E.html

bonkey

But, when it comes to public policy, Europe has taken a wrong turn. Its welfare state has sapped initiative and driven jobs abroad;

Unlike America, where jobs have been driven abroad by the simple fact that people in developing economies simply do more for less.

its treatment of immigrants is shameful;

Unlike America, where the grey economy treats illegal immigrants like kings, right?

unemployment is in the double digits;

As a matter of interest, does anyone know what level unemployment in the US would be at if long-term unemployed weren't dropped off the figures after enough time has elapsed?

Also, is the author referring to average unemployment across all of Europe, the EU, Western Europe, or what?

health policy is making people sicker;

We should clearly follow the US ideal of healing the wealthy and letting everyone else either owe everything they'll ever earn to hospitals or simply refuse them treatment.

and foreign policy is based on isolationism and moral posturing.

Again, coming from an American, criticism of anyone's foreign policy is somethign I'd take with a grain of salt.....after I figured out exactly what he means by foreign policy in relation to a continent. Again, is he talking about the EU, Western Europe, some average of European nations, or what?

The notion that Europe will be able to compete with resurgent China and India in the next 30 years is laughable.

The idea that the US will be able to compete with them is equally laughable, but one that the author (at least in this excerpt) avoids mentioning.

Certainly, however, there isn't just a single Europe. The countries on the outer edges -- Britain, Poland, Ireland, Portugal, Estonia, and so on -- remain fairly aspirational,

If we remove the "edge" nations, Germany is about all thats left. Well, germany and some of the newer members in the East.

So it would seem that when the author is attacking Europe, he's attacking Germany. He's probably also attacking France, and probably Italy (ooh - reading further, I'm bang on, except he included the Belgians too), but doesn't seem to realise that they too are "edge" nations.

leaning in the direction of American liberalism (in the best sense of that word -- a tendency to place freedom, economic and personal, number-one on a list of values).

It always cracks me up. The good nations in Europe are the ones most closely matching "American liberalism". So basically, the more American we are, the better we are. Funny an American should think that.

Its even funnier that he should be giving these nations credit for matching American liberal ideals when one of Bush's main tactics in the last election to discredit Kerry was to label him as a liberal.

Apparently then, liberal Americanism is what non-American nations should strive for, but is the path to ruin for America.

They haven't given in to the smug complacency of France, Germany, Belgium and (I'm sad to say) Spain. Italy, the Netherlands and the Scandinavian countries are somewhere in between.

So basically, all of the criticism of Europe is because of 4 nations.

FFS. If I tried to criticise America because of the actions of just the bible-bashing states, I'd be ridiculed for trying to portray all Americans as fundemantalist Christian nuts. TomF's chosen author, however, sees no problem doing a similar - arguably greater - disservice to Europe.

To be honest, the more I consider the snippet TomF posted, the more and mroe I'm inclined to disagree with the assertion that the author by no means of measurement could be called stupid. In terms of his demonstrated knowledge of Europe, I think that label could most certainly be applicable.

jc

lazydaisy

Bonkey,

When you refer to the average person from Europe who do you mean? When you refer to the average American who do you mean? How do you measure who knows more about what is outside of their nation? Are you saying that this is what Irish people like to mock Americans for? A gap which may not even exist? I found your post a little confusing.

Are you also saying generalisations are ok when the person who is saying them makes it clear to the listener/reader that it applies to most, some, many but not all of the people being described and hopes for the best that the listener/reader understands that, despite possibly being one of those people being described?

You will question someone's stance on foreign policy just because they are American? You said "Again, coming from an American, criticism of anyone's foreign policy is somethign I'd take with a grain of salt....." You don't think that's racist? Substitute the word American with Brit, Nigerian, Traveller, woman, homosexual, or whatever and see what it looks like.

Hobbes - discrediting the witness doesn;t exactly help an argument. Those are a few of many articles available on the web. You can google Irish Anti-Americanism and see for yourself. There are plenty more examples of other people observing its existence.

What, other than money did Ireland give to Katrina victims?

When you refer to mourning the loss of all that life, I assume you are referring to Sept 11th? You didn't say. But I recall the feeling after Sept 11th because I was still living in Dublin, and yes the sympathy was there, but it was coupled with sanctimony even then.

J1 visa visitors are down because of the fingerprinting and long questionaiires? Most VISAs which allow you to work in a foreign country have those kinds of questions. If Ireland or other EU nations had these kinds of programmes for US or other non-national students to work there, more people would be aware of that. But the EU generally does not make it easy for non-citizens to work or live in Europe. In fact, it's nearly impossible.There are no such things as J1 visas, greencards, etc.... And in Ireland -even birth in the country doesn't entitle you to citizenship and that's probably part of why the author cited below thinks Europe is not great for immigrants aside from a million other reasons.

Do you have any links to the reports of Irish students being arrested? I'd be interested in reading them.

fly_agaric

lazydaisy wrote:

I realise that these could be under two different threads. But I suspect they are linked. Maybe I'm wrong.

Does anyone else feel the anti-Americanism in Ireland is hysteria or at least partially so? It just seems so automatic and visceral, and that there is an unspoken censorship of defending the US or Ireland's assistance whether it be financial or through the use of ports and intelligence.

I suppose there was always that element of "America - the evil empire:eek: " with the left in Ireland - indeed with the far left in the US too perhaps.
What has changed after years of Bush Jr's craziness is that more ordinary people have also become quite cynical about the US.

I don't see much love for "Europe" flowing across the atlantic either these days - and last I heard we were part of Europe.

Anyway, what does it matter really?:)

To listen to the conservatives in the US, no true blue American patriot would pay any heed to the hystericals of a bunch of damn dirty for'ners - esp'shally not to a pansy europussy coward-nation of quislinglickspittlesurrendermonkeys who will be first in line to kiss the Caliph's ass when Ahl-Kaidah have their "Islamic empire" (as de prez'nent called it in a speech recently). Dey have no nukular weapons either ffs! Who on God's green earth takes a nation without the A-bomb seriously anyway?

That techcentral article is a typical example of the smug condescension the American media (especially the right-wing bits) always shows Europe. They are always so sure that they have found the truth, the perfect way a democratic and free nation should be governed. Your "axis-of-evilness-quotient" is predetermined by how close your country matches up in terms of laws, government etc to that beacon of hope for us benighted for'ners - the US of A.

Hobbes

lazydaisy wrote:

Hobbes - discrediting the witness doesn;t exactly help an argument. Those are a few of many articles available on the web. You can google Irish Anti-Americanism and see for yourself.

Sorry, when the witness is bogus to begin with (and wtf witness?) why should we take the story as the norm?

I can certainly google, however the amount of "Anti-Americanism" spouted tends to be spouted by the right wing conservitive sites. Prehaps if you can point me to actual blatant anti-americanism as opposed to those who claim to be reporting it.

My relatives are from America and currently enjoying Ireland at the moment. They haven't had any hassle at all. The friends with them are the sterotypical right-wing ulta religous conservatives (which was fun debating with them ). While we disagreed on everything the discussion never went down to "bloody americans/liberals" arguments that I see spouted when questioned on issues. Of course they are not reflective of all Americans, but they never mentioned anything out of the ordinary that you have mentioned (except maybe people trying to rip them off).

There are plenty more examples of other people observing its existence.

Less observations, more actual incidents would be better. Can you dig them up?

What, other than money did Ireland give to Katrina victims?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0905/katrinaaid.html

Not to mention we opened up our oil reserves to the US (as part of EU agreed)

When you refer to mourning the loss of all that life, I assume you are referring to Sept 11th? You didn't say. But I recall the feeling after Sept 11th because I was still living in Dublin, and yes the sympathy was there, but it was coupled with sanctimony even then.

You posted a news report from 9/11 claiming that Anti-Americanism was rampant. It wasn't at that time. Even France said "We are all Americans now".

J1 visa visitors are down because of the fingerprinting and long questionaiires? Most VISAs which allow you to work in a foreign country have those kinds of questions.

Actually they don't. You have to list in detail where you will be in the US for your stay there. The only time I have seen something similar is the anti-terrorist form that all the lucky Irish got to fill out when going to England.

But this has been discussed to death before on boards.ie. Shame the search isn't active.

Do you have any links to the reports of Irish students being arrested? I'd be interested in reading them.

I'll dig out what I can when I get back from my hols. Off the top of my head two Russian students were detained for months without charge in the US. The crime? Cycling into a police station to ask for directions.

bonkey

lazydaisy wrote:

Are you also saying generalisations are ok when the person who is saying them makes it clear to the listener/reader that it applies to most, some, many but not all of the people being described and hopes for the best that the listener/reader understands that, despite possibly being one of those people being described?

You will question someone's stance on foreign policy just because they are American?
...
You don't think that's racist?

Yes I will, and no I don't.

I think its a reflection of my opinion of American foreign policy, coupled with a belief in the notion of "before removing the mote in thy neighbour's eye...", backed up by my distaste of someone pointing at the flaws of one side to conclude that the other is superior somehow, without addressing equally the flaws on the supposedly superior side.

I will criticise America, but not in order to conclude that because American deserves criticism, Europe is clearly superior. Europe has its own flaws, and if I were to discuss - on any point - which I believe is better, I would at least have the intellectual honest to weigh up the pros and cons of both sides, rather than taking TomF's chosen author's approach of "I don't like this aspect of Europe, so clearly America is better in this regard".

I will also draw your attention to the ironical fact that you began this thread asking about the "hysteria" of anti-Americanism, and yet suggest as your first response that a comment I make is racist in origin, despite the fact that I've already tried to make clear that I make an effort to be considered in my criticism.

You disregarded my claims of consideration, and immediately went for the "isn't that racist" come-back. Considering how multicultural America is only further highlights how carefully considered that response was.

A remarkable stance for someone asking if other people's criticism is somewhat based in hysteria, I must say.

Again, I'm reminded of the notion of "before removing the mote in thy neighbour's eye..."

jc

lazydaisy

Bonkey,

Thank you for clearing that up. As I said, I was confused by your post so I wanted to ask if I understood you correctly. Clearly I didn't. If you notice, I did put question marks at the end of the sentences, thus implying a question, not a statement. Taking someone's opinion with a grain of salt because of their nationality, I think is a somewhat racist, but we don't have to agree on that. We don't have to agree on what is racist and what isn't. There are people [not me though] who would argue that quoting the Bible at me when you don't know what my faith is is Eurocentric, arrogant, preachy and biblethumping. In case you care, I do not take offense at it. I know you're just trying to tell me I'm a hypocrite and not trying to impose your Judeo-Christian values on me.

Hobbes,

I didn't notice that those were right wing conservative sites. The Irish Voice is defintely not right wing conservative. Is Irish Eagle and The Sunday Business Post right wing conservative? [I genuinely do not know - please tell me]. If I find leftwing- liberal examples would that be better? If left wing liberals say it it has credibilty? [The Irish Voice has traditionally been left wing leaning but you dismissed that too].I would- but I have the feeling you have already decided I am wrong and no matter what I show you you will discredit the author. Also - are people claiming it's the norm? It just seemed to me that they were saying it existed and is/was growing in popularity?

The link you supplied regarding aid to Katrina said what Ireland may offer in addition to money and not what it did offer I don't disbelieve you though. I'm sure Ireland did offer more than financial assistance.

Hagar

lazydaisy wrote:

What, other than money did Ireland give to Katrina victims?

Well I tried to put a ham sandwich, two buckets, a saxophone and a canoe in the Red Cross Box but they wouldn't fit.

Imagine the gall of a country our size merely sending money as aid. I'm ashamed of us. :rolleyes:

dahamsta

Hagar wrote:

Well I tried to put a ham sandwich, two buckets, a saxophone and a canoe in the Red Cross Box but they wouldn't fit.

LOL. I get the buckets, the saxaphone and the canoe, but wouldn't something fish-related be more appropriate than a hang sandwich?