Pistol licence - What next?

P38Man

Current circumstances:

1. Eircom Phonewatch monitored alarm installed in house.
2. Have approved gun safe, installed in the recommended manner.
3. Have owned a licensed .22 rifle for about 3 years.
4. Member of Rifle / Pistol Club.
5. Have club insurance (countryside alliance).
6. Doing a pistol / range safety course next month.

I have just bought a Walther P38 from Germany. As soon as I get the receipt and serial number from Germany what else do I have to bring to the Garda station? Is there something about a Section 7 form? Where do I get the ammo (9mm)?

Thanks,
Eric

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

You should be able to buy ammo from your local gunsmith. Saying that, not all gunsmiths will have the 9mm ammo in. I'm not sure exactly where you will get it. I suggest going on the net and get one of those kits that allow you to reuse the shell.

As for requirments I don't think that numbers 1, 3, 5 and 6 are legit. I am not sure either what the proper requirments are but I would also suggest you know the legitimate requirments before you hand in the request or you will be met with some total bull...

I mean having phonewatch installed is rediculous, not everyone has a phon, and if they do they may not be willing to pay for that service. I can't see this being a "real" requirment...

Number 3 seems more believable but I wouldn't be 100% on it, check it out.

Having club insurance would be covered in most pistol clubs membership. If you are apart of a club then you may already be insured. I will say that having insurance would be down to the owner of the firearm, not a law.

I'm not sure about number 6 either. I never heard about having to do a course although I can see the reasoning, but if it is the case then why would you not be required to do a saftey course on any other firearm?

Could someone please post the requirments for possessing a pistol in plain english... Thanks.

Chipboard

P38man

Your list nearly covers it.

The next thing you should do is ring your local station and tell the Firearms Officer you'd like to drop in to discuss an application you'll be making for a firearm. My fella was dead on, he asked me what I was applying for, what I wanted it for, what training I had and what security precautions I would be taking. The only valid purpose (according to my FO) is target shooting (although I'd say a stud owner,deer hunter might be allowed one at a stretch); personal protection is an automatic refusal. You're about to do the safety course so thats good (I assume its specifically for pistols). The security precautions I took are as follows; gun safe bolted (rawlbolts) to concrete wall and concealed with alarm sensor on safe and PIR sensor in the room. Separate ammo safe in another room again bolted to concrete wall, consealed with alarm sensor and PIR movement sensor. Monitored alarm. I had a camera on the front of the house (a discreet one) so for good measure I bought a video activator for it (activates record on video when someone walks on front of camera).

My FO told me on the spot that if I did the above I'd get the licence. He asked me to put the above points in a letter (firearm, purpose, training, security, and also club membership (photocopy) and insurance cover) and enclose cheque for €38 and details of the firearm (serial number, calibre, type). He also said the might do away with the need to inspect my set up if I enclosed proof of purchase of the different security items (which I did). Be sure to state in the letter that you want 500 rounds on the licence otherwise you'll get 100 which wouldn't do you for 20 minutes on the range. I forgot this point and now I'll have to get the licence amended after its issued every year.

I had the licence in about 2 weeks. This is the easy way to do it. If you want you can make an issue about some of the requirements on the basis that they're not written into the law but 1) you'll be making your life difficult and 2) when you actually get the pistol all the above will help keep your mind at ease as its a big responsibility owning a pistol, I wouldn't be happy to have one in my house without the above. Bear in mind that if your pistol is stolen your unlikely to get another licence. I can't see why anyone would have a problem with having to do a safety course before being allowed to own a pistol - it would plain stupid for this to be allowed.

Tell the FO you want an article 7 with the licence (your entitled to it if you get the licence) and you want a Europass. There's no additional fee for these but you have to supply two passport photos and your signature (2 samples) on a piece of paper.

The next bit is where it gets tricky. My dealer in NI told me he needed a copy of my southern licence and an article 7. The Gardai told me forget about the article 7/Europass and meet him at the border and the Dept of Justice told me to send them the article 7 and they would give me an article 11 which I would give to the dealer in the North. In the end I gave the article 7 to the dealer and that did the job. I suspect as you are purchasing from Germany you might have to send the Art 7 to the DOJ and get the Art 11 and send it to Germany (prob best to ask the dealer in Germany what he wants and go with that).

On the subject of ammo, I think if you have an article 7 any dealer can use it to import ammo for you but I dont know. As I have a Europass and NI permit I can purchase in the north so I havent had occasion to look for it down here. I dont think you can reload in the south yet but I'm not sure.

I'm sure someone will disagree with some aspect of the above because it is all relatively new stuff (to the Gardai/DOJ etc) and I'd say each application pans out a bit differently but this is how it went for me. I finally got mine yesterday.

Hope this helps and best of luck.

Sparks

Aubriella Helpless Narrator wrote:

As for requirments I don't think that numbers 1, 3, 5 and 6 are legit.

As blanket preconditions, they're not. If the super has set them as individual preconditions (and that'd be easy for him to argue), then the judgements in Dunne v. Donoghue say that they're probably legal.

I mean having phonewatch installed is rediculous, not everyone has a phon, and if they do they may not be willing to pay for that service. I can't see this being a "real" requirment...

I dunno. A sig is going to run you what, nearly a grand? A decent morini or pardini will certainly top that out with room to spare, and an AW93...
Does phonewatch *really* cost that much by comparison, especially given that it's adding to the security of your entire home? (And can you not get insurance premium reductions for fitting a security system from your household insurance?).

Number 3 seems more believable but I wouldn't be 100% on it, check it out.

Of all of the things P38 has listed, none is stricly a legal requirement - land to shoot on or membership of a club with a range you can shoot on would be the closest.

Having club insurance would be covered in most pistol clubs membership. If you are apart of a club then you may already be insured.

Double-check that. Some clubs do, some clubs don't.

I will say that having insurance would be down to the owner of the firearm, not a law.

I dunno. I have been thinking recently that we can't really argue that firearms ought to be licenced in as straightforward a manner as cars without accepting some of the conditions that go with such licencing models - like mandatory third-party insurance. And it does strike me as being the responsible thing to do, regardless of legal obligation (of which there currently is none, by the way).

Could someone please post the requirments for possessing a pistol in plain english... Thanks.

Straight out of the Firearms Act, Section 4:

4.—Before granting a firearm certificate to any person under this Act the superintendent of the Gárda Síochána or the Minister (as the case may require) shall be satisfied that such person—
( a ) has a good reason for requiring the firearm in respect of which the certificate is applied for, and
( b ) can be permitted to have in his possession, use, and carry a firearm or ammunition without danger to the public safety or to the peace, and
( c ) is not a person declared by this Act to be disentitled to hold a firearm certificate.

And (c) is defined by Section 8 of the act, as amended by the 1964 Act:

Persons disentitled to hold a firearm certificate or a permit.

8.—(1) The following persons are hereby declared to be disentitled to hold a firearm certificate, that is to say:—
( a ) any person under the age of sixteen years, and
( b ) any person of intemperate habits, and
( c ) any person of unsound mind, and
(d) any person who has been sentenced by any court in the State to penal servitude or to imprisonment for any term which has not expired or has expired within five years previously for a crime in the course of which a firearm was used or a firearm or an imitation firearm was produced for the apparent purpose of intimidating any person or a threat to use a firearm against any person or property was made, and
(e) any person who has been sentenced by any court in the State to penal servitude or to imprisonment for any term of not less than three months which has not expired or has expired within five years previously for a crime consisting of or including an assault on any person, and
( f ) any person who is subject to the supervision of the police, and
( g ) any person who is bound by a recognizance to keep the peace or be of good behaviour, a condition of which is that such person shall not have in his possession, or use, or carry any firearm or ammunition.

(2) Any person who is by virtue of this section disentitled to hold a firearm certificate shall also be disentitled to hold a permit under this Act in relation to any firearm or ammunition.

Now, here's where it gets ...trying.

According to Dunne v. Donoghue, the case taken all the way to the Supreme Court, and won, by the NARGC, setting any other blanket preconditions than those above in section 4 would be illegal. But, both the High and Supreme court judges said that setting additional preconditions on an individual basis was a seperate issue, not yet ruled upon in court, but on which they would be most likely to rule as being lawful because of the wide latitude given to the Superintendents under section 4(b) (the public safety clause). So the superintendent could, and in all probability would be backed up by the courts should it be taken down that route, impose other preconditions. It's a rather nasty little legal loophole.

Also, if the CJB goes through (and given the majority the current government enjoys, it can be railroaded through with ease), all this will alter in that:
a) Section 4 will be amended to add in a clause requiring "secure storage", which won't be a defined term, so the safe and the alarm will probably be a legal necessity.
b) The Commissioner will be empowered to draft instructions to all the Superintendents setting out minimum standards for "secure storage" which must be met.
And c), the nightmare scenario, the Minister will be empowered to declare some firearms illegal to possess or licence. There's no indication if that'll be a whole class of firearm (as in "pistols"), a calibre, a particular make/model or what.

*Sigh*

Best advice would be to do as Chipboard suggests. Yes, what they're doing is jumping the gun on the law, however, what they're looking for is pretty much best practise, and you'd spend more money fighting it than you'd save from not having to get the stuff together, not to mention the hassle you'd bring on yourself. If you decide that you do want to take the legal route, I'd suggest contacting the NARGC as they've got rather deep pockets for their legal team, but I'd recommend first that you sleep on it - as a friend of mine with experience in the area from fighting County Councils in court is wont to tell me, "you don't go to court for principle; you only ever go to court for money"

Or, as an American judge (Holmes) put it, "This is not a court of justice young man, this is a court of law"

Riggser

I can't see the point in putting a sensor on the actual safe, would it not be better to put a sensor on the door and window if any? Meaning that the alarm goes off when the room is breached not the safe. Plus the Phonewatch isn't much use if the phone line is cut.

By all means definitely get everything mentioned above first and don't argue in what you need to get or you're in for a long haul.

Well done on getting your license Clipboard. They don't come easy.

jaycee

And c), the nightmare scenario, the Minister will be empowered to declare some firearms illegal to possess or licence. There's no indication if that'll be a whole class of firearm (as in "pistols"), a calibre, a particular make/model or what.

I'm not so sure that the news will be all bad ...:)

From the transcripts:

Quote:
Minister McDowell:
I also propose to insert a new part in the Bill to deal with a series of provisions relating to the firearms Acts 1925 to 2000. The new provisions will concern the certification for possession, use and carriage of firearms and ammunition; allow the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to deem certain firearms as restricted and allow for an increase in fines and penalties relating to offences generally under the Firearms Acts; and the creation of mandatory minimum sentences for certain firearms offences, including some new offences concerning the modification of a firearm. I am thinking of sawn-off shotguns. The provisions will also introduce a right of appeal to the District Court from firearms decisions made by the Garda Síochána, a new power for the Commissioner to make guidelines or guidance notes for the uniform administration of the Act and a provision for the authorisation of rifle and pistol clubs and shooting ranges. It will also contain a provision allowing the Minister to make a scheme to provide for payment for certain surrendered firearms in limited circumstances. It will also make provision allowing for a period where firearms may be surrendered to members of the Garda Síochána.

Fingers crossed ..:rolleyes:

Chipboard

I'd agree that putting a sensor on the safe itself could be considered excessive because an intruder would be doing very well to get past the perimeter alarm sensors and the PIR to begin with but I think they want safes alarmed. The only situation I could see it helping with was where someone who legitimately had access to your house (plumber, nanny, aggrieved wife etc), tried to force the safe. If you had a shock sensor with the zone set to 24 hr then the alarm would go off when an attempt was made to force it.

Having a monitored alarm would be pointless if your phone wires were exposed but mine are underground. An intruder could get to the phone in the hallway of course but it wouldn't be any use cos the digital communicator seizes the line in an alarm situation.

Sparks

jaycee wrote:

I'm not so sure that the news will be all bad ...:)
...
Fingers crossed ..:rolleyes:

Thing with that bit though, is that he could ban all but air pistols and still have pistol clubs around. And while we'd know we'd been diddled, few others would care. Look at the protest over ticknock - a group of people who legally had no claim to be on either the land in use or the land around it because they were trespassing according to Coillte policy (and that was signposted all over the area) brought a protest against the reactivation of the range by the LRPC - and the TDs backed the trespassers!

Plus, what clubs will have to go through for this now mandatory authorisation is something we'd want to watch very closely indeed.

There's a lot in the way of hazards in the CJB for our sport, as well as boons

Sparks

BTW, do phonewatch not treat the phone lines being cut in the same way they treat an alarm being sounded? And isn't there a vodafone variant that uses a mobile phone connection?

Clare gunner

A wireless eircom phone watch is what you need.No phone lines to cut.Works like a GSM mobile phone.

demonloop

Clare gunner wrote:

A wireless eircom phone watch is what you need.No phone lines to cut.Works like a GSM mobile phone.

Could Mr Thief not just take the SIM card out then?

Sparks

Actually, does anyone have a list of alternative companies to Phonewatch for this kind of service? A few people have been wondering about this...

Chipboard

One alternative is to fit a digital communicator which rings or texts your phone, thus cutting out the middle man. Its alot cheaper than getting Eircom to monitor it.

Rovi

Chipboard wrote:

One alternative is to fit a digital communicator which rings or texts your phone, thus cutting out the middle man. Its alot cheaper than getting Eircom to monitor it.

When my security was checked by the Crime Prevention Office almost a year ago, he mentioned that (for pistol applications) they 'preferred' alarms installed to 'EN 50131' standard, and monitored to 'IS 228' standard. It'd be worth checking, but I'd suspect that a privately monitored alarm wouldn't conform to that standard
A local alarm specialist told me recently that the Guards were planning to change their alarm response policy soon. According to him, they will no longer respond unless at least two sensors have been activated. They've been getting too many call-outs to 'one sensor' false alarms, apparently.

.

Rew

You can get sensors that that use both IR and microwave and require both before they trip. These cut down the false positives.

les45

Guys, the garda website has the latest info re monitored alarms and the spec required.

Rovi

les45 wrote:

Guys, the garda website has the latest info re monitored alarms and the spec required.

Link?

.

Meclor

This maybe the link

http://www.garda.ie/angarda/pub/intruder_alarm_policy.doc

Riggser

So what alarm companies are approved?

eircom Phonewatch is a rip off, any other companies that don't shaft you as much?.

civdef

Get your Golden Pages out and start looking for alarm contractors in your area. I called several, all were cheaper than Phone watch, the best quote I got from a contractor was less than half the price Phonewatch quoted.

Make sure they advertise themselves as complying with the relevant standards.

Clare gunner

demonloop wrote:

Could Mr Thief not just take the SIM card out then?

Er NO!!!Cos the sim card is embedded in a steel box,and any effin around with the box will trigger the alarm as well!!!.Plus he had better be damn good to find,open,decrypt and remove a sim card[BTW which does not look like a normal phone sim card]within 30 seconds.

Folks,can i just point out one thing here if you are shopping around for a monitored alarm company?
1] With the security act 2000 now law.You can check up on any security company that offers this service with the Private Security Authorthy,in Tip town,co Tip,to see if they are liscensed.If they are Not and advertising as an alarm monitoring company the PSA would like a word with them!
2] Be careful on this "approved" alarm company that your Super might only accept or insist you get.Check out the company owners& directors.It would and is not unknown that backhanders are passed on between the Super or whom ever and the company.Some of these companies are Ex garda ,now working in the private sector,and it is another little cosy cartel that goes on that is quite unknown about.
3]Yes,eircom is a rippoff or as I call it EIRCON.BUT it has only one advantage most of the others dont have.It is national govt and Garda approved operation.So the garda cant refuse you on the grounds of an insufficent alarm system.They approved it,so are they now saying what they approved isnt good enough???
4] Get references from the prospective alarm company and CHECK THEM OUT! Go meet the referee and see what sort of an operation they are running.Paper does not refuse ink,and you can say whoever or whatever at the end of a phone line.Also meet the alarm company at their hq.Any company if ligit will be only too happy to show you around their facility,ask also to see their public INDEMNITY insurance,not their public liability insurance[a common fob off trick].[Publlic indeminity means if your house is robbed,and this lot were asleep under the counter,and arrive 24 hours later to the response call,and you sue them,that they are coverd for such an event.Of them falling asleep of course].It's VERY expensive to have in Ireland,but it is the mark of a company who is taking their job seriously.They will also need it if they are installing your alarm,so that if your priceless ming vase is broken by them while installing your alarm,they are coverd for such an eventually as well.

Umiq88

i dont know if this is accepted by the gardai as i havent tried for a pistol application but the way my alarm works is you put a motion sensor in each room everything is wireless so easy installation then if you want a room without them you can get wireless thingys for the windows and doors there is the main control unit and if the alarm goes off it rings your phone/mobile telling you

also another handy feature is that it can be set to different zones we have it up and down stairs so you can leave it on at night downstairs and walk around upstairs and use the bathroom and it comes with a remote control unit so that you can switch it on and off upstairs or keep it in the car or whatever

i can find out the make/model if anyone is interested cant remember what it cost

P38Man

Went to the FO today and submitted my application. Comment passed was that a 9mm calibre is treated as a combat calibre and may not be passed although there are a couple in the area that have been licensed. Told that a .22 calibre is the preferred round for target shooting.

Also asked to import it through a local gun dealer if possible - I've to get a "bill of sale" from same plus a letter from the club confirming I am a fully paid up member - despite showing my membership card.

All in all not bad if that's all I have to do.

Thanks for all the help guys.

Eric

cantona

P38man, what station are you applying to?

Riggser

P38Man wrote:

Went to the FO today and submitted my application. Comment passed was that a 9mm calibre is treated as a combat calibre

If it were treated as a combat calibre nobody in this country would have them, they're treated as target shooting and sport shooting calibres. More Firearms Officer bull**** from where ever, ask them next time where they got that information from and see them run a mile and make up something hilarious.

P38Man

cantona wrote:

P38man, what station are you applying to?

In the midlands - sorry but don't want to be any more precise as unfortunately the authorities breed paranoia

cantona

Applicants in Swords, Malahide and Coolock have gotten the same reply and also been told that they have no good reason to hold a pistol over .22.Just wondering if you were there or if other stations are using this excuse as well.

Sparks

cantona wrote:

been told that they have no good reason to hold a pistol over .22

Great. "Combat Calibres". *sheesh*
Can't wait to hear how .32 pistols are "combat calibres" and of no use for target shooting...

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

I really do hate the BS that the FO hands out sometimes... I remember me and my brother going for our permits the same day and the FO told my brother that he wasn't giving him a licence, why you ask? Just because, no reason at all...

What good is a .22? I would like to have a choice of pistol. Personally I would like something with a bit of a kick like a .40 or something.

Sparks

What good is a .22?

Hey now, just 'cos we want other stuff as well, don't go puking on the real tests of marksmanship that .22 and air pistols provide

civdef

Can't wait to hear how .32 pistols are "combat calibres" and of no use for target shooting...

Well, James Bond used a .32, so that must be a combat calibre as well....