The Authenticity Of Holy Books

Suff

It's about time to start hot debate for a change!!!

The Authenticity of Holy Books, Texts.

Each religion has it's holy book and every religion states that it's the true faith.

But not all can be right!

so if a Muslim, Jew, Christian, Hindu or even an Atheist would argue that they are right...what proof do they have??

Please if you are going to join/ contribute here make sure to include accurate and valid refrences from books or athorised websites.
Thanks

Dades

Suffice to say no claim in this arena has proof - only faith.
You either have it or you don't.

hairyheretic

First up, does every religion state that it is the true faith?

No one has proof. Proof, I believe, is something that could be independently verified. Short of a public visitation by any supreme being(s), I doubt we ever will have proof.

All a believer has is their own belief. For them, that should be all they need.

Suff

I can submit my proof !

Dades

Suff wrote:

I can submit my proof !

Oh, go on then... I'm all eyes.

stevenmu

The problem I'd have with 'holy books' is that they tend to claim to be the direct word of God, but we have to rely on the good faith of the people who wrote them or selected the works to be included in them. With the Christian Bible, the new testament at least, it's a compilation of work by many different writers, so we have to rely on both the honesty of the writers and believe that God guided the judgement of those who decided what works should or should not make it in. The Islamic Koran is a bit more directly linked to the 'source', iirc having been dictated by the Prophet word for word what God told him to say. This again requires us to have faith that the Prophet was who he claimed to be.

The problem I see with this model (i.e. the word of God being recorded through humans) is that in any circumstances when humans are added to any proccess, there's always the potential for error, or even outright corruption (not that I'm claiming this is the case with either of the religions mentioned above).

hairyheretic wrote:

Proof, I believe, is something that could be independently verified.

Within religious/spiritual discussion there can be different levels of proof. The type you mention being one, but there can also be 'personal' proof. An example of this would be if you prayed to God for a relative of yours to be cured of cancer, and it happens the next day, that would be powerfull proof to you, but an independant person would shrug it off as a happy coincidence.

Asiaprod

Stevenmu
Within religious/spiritual discussion there can be different levels of proof

In order to produce any proof I think that this is a key issue that needs to be addressed.
What would you consider to be proof Suff. All religions are based on faith and short of finding the original Ten Commandment tablets, the tooth of the Buddha or what ever historical artifact of what ever religion is mentioned, I don`t see how there can ever be a satisfactory answer to your post:rolleyes:. IMHO if anyone could offer actual proof, don`t you think that most of the peoples in the world would have by now joined that religion.

I am also intrigued by your apparent ability to offer proof. I presume you are refering to tangible proof here! and not such proof as the answer to prays or such like. In addition, if as you say you have proof yourself, how can you possibly be in a possition to accept proof of some other religion. Would that very proof, if offered, not in essence invalidate both proofs? You did say not all can be right! The only way around this catch 22 situation would be to accept multiple religions and deities.

So, since you asked the original question, please state where you stand and show your proof, though you have not yet stated proof of what you can show. Now that will give great grounds to develop an exciting thread:).

hairyheretic

stevenmu wrote:

Within religious/spiritual discussion there can be different levels of proof. The type you mention being one, but there can also be 'personal' proof. An example of this would be if you prayed to God for a relative of yours to be cured of cancer, and it happens the next day, that would be powerfull proof to you, but an independant person would shrug it off as a happy coincidence.

And therein lies the problem. While any person of a particular belief may believe that a certain action is proof of the existance of their deity(s), something like that is going to be all but impossible to verify by other means.

Because you, or I or anyone else, believes something does not necessarily mean its true.

A stray thought comes to me ...

"I refuse to prove I exist" said God, "Because proof denies faith, and without faith, I am nothing."

If any or all deities were proved to exist, would that strengthen or deminish peoples faith in them? After all, you don't have to believe in something if you know it's real.

Dades

People will always believe what they want to believe.

Alien Overlords could land in every city on Earth and show us how we've all been part of a giant biological experiment, and people would still find some scripture that supports their diety.

stevenmu

The Atheist wrote:

Alien Overlords could land in every city on Earth and show us how we've all been part of a giant biological experiment, and people would still find some scripture that supports their diety.

Well, our aliens overlords have to have been made by someone

Asiaprod

stevenmu wrote:

Well, our aliens overlords have to have been made by someone

Oooops, now its gone in a whole different direction.
We are back to the creation vs evolution issue again.

Dades

Asiaprod wrote:

Oooops, now its gone in a whole different direction.
We are back to the creation vs evolution issue again.

If Suff would just put us out of our misery and show us The Proof, then we could all just go home and wait for Armageddon!

Stabshauptmann

Suff wrote:

I can submit my proof !

Really?

Anyone else starting to think of southpark and the mormans btw?

Stabshauptmann

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

Really?

Anyone else starting to think of southpark and the mormans btw?

If aare to go down the road of predictions made by holy scriptures. Bear in mind Nostradamus (sp?) and his predictions. If its about miracles, bear in mind ppl of many other religions have witnessed miracles as well.

Asiaprod

Oh, come on Suff, you have the ears and eyes of the world holding their collective breath. Show us "The Proof" and put us out of our misery........please:)

stevenmu

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

Really?

Anyone else starting to think of southpark and the mormans btw?

Hehe, I loved that episode, I've actually been thinking of it a lot in relation to other threads around the place, I wonder if any of my american cousins have it on dvd.

OfflerCrocGod

The Atheist wrote:

If Suff would just put us out of our misery and show us The Proof, then we could all just go home and wait for Armageddon!

Show some respect Atheist! Soon you will be grovelling before your God begging for Mercy! Once suff shows us the proof.
So pronounce it correctly it's THE PROOF!*





*40 + 2 = 43

Suff

The proof is simple...

Take a look at the world around us. why is it the way it is?
Sicence is the key because it's the only way we understand the world.

My proof is............The Quraan.

"Will they not ponder the Qur’an? If it had been from other than Allah, they would have found many inconsistencies in it."
(Qur’an, 4:82)


What is it?
The Quraan is the actual word of GOD, no other religion can state the same thing, as the bible (old & new) is written according to someone and there are a number of versions of it. changed across the years.
(I'll add more on this subject soon)

The Quraan has not been changed since it was revealed 1430 years ago.
One text no additions or deletions.

Why?

The Quraan is complied and created in an amaizing method far from any human way of thinking. the arabic text is very uniqe and strong.
cannot be replicated.
Please do search the web for more info non this matter, I'll produce more info soon.

The Quraan contains a large number of facts that is held today by the world Sicenctists.

Examples?

*THE CREATION OF HUMAN BEINGS FROM WATER:

"Do those who disbelieve not see that the heavens and the earth were sewn together and then We unstitched them and that We made from water every living thing? So will they not believe?" (Qur'an, 21:30)

*THE FECUNDATING WINDS:

"And We send the fecundating winds, then cause water to descend from the sky, therewith providing you with water in abundance." (Qur'an, 15:22)

*THE SEAS NOT MINGLING WITH ONE ANOTHER:
One of the properties of seas that has only recently been discovered is related in a verse of the Qur'an as follows..

"He has let loose the two seas, converging together, with a barrier between them they do not break through." (Qur'an, 55:19-20)

This property of the seas, that is, that they meet and yet do not intermix, has only very recently been discovered by oceanographers. Because of the physical force called "surface tension," the waters of neighbouring seas do not mix. Caused by the difference in the density of their waters, surface tension prevents them from mingling with one another, just as if a thin wall were between them.60

It is interesting that, during a period when there was little knowledge of physics, and of surface tension, or oceanography, this truth was revealed in the Qur'an.

*THE PROGRAMMING IN GENES:
"From what thing did He create him? From a drop of sperm He created him and proportioned him. Then He eases the way for him." (Qur'an, 80:18-20)

The word "qaddarahu" translated as "proportioned" in the above verse, comes from the Arabic verb "qadare. It translates as "arranging, setting out, planning, programming, seeing the future, the writing of everything in destiny (by Allah).

*THE MENSTRUAL PERIOD:
The menstrual period is when the unfertilised egg is expelled from the body. Since fertilisation has not taken place, the walls of the previously readied womb contract and the egg is expelled with the breaking of tiny blood vessels. Following that, the body will then begin preparations to repeat the whole process all over again.

All of these stages are repeated in all women over a specific period. Every month, new egg cells form, the same hormones are secreted-again and again at the same times. Thus the female body is prepared as if it will be fertilised. However, in the final stage, the absence or presence of the sperm changes the nature of the preparations in the body.

During the period in question, the changes in the empty space in the womb can only be identified by an anatomical or gynaecological examination. Yet these changes, only recently identified by scientists, are miraculously indicated in Surat ar-Ra'd:

"Allah knows what every female bears and every shrinking of the womb and every swelling. Everything has its measure with Him." (Qur'an, 13:8)

*THE IDENTITY IN THE FINGERPRINT:
While it is stated in the Qur'an that it is easy for Allah to bring man back to life after death, peoples' fingerprints are particularly emphasized:

"Yes, We are able to put together in perfect order the very tips of his fingers." (Qur'an, 75:4)

The emphasis on fingerprints has a very special meaning. This is because shapes and details on everyone's fingerprint are unique to each individual. Every person who is alive or who has ever lived in this world has a set of unique fingerprints. Furthermore, even identical twins having the very same DNA sequence have their own set of fingerprints.105

---

I could go on and on and produce more facts.
you need to ask yourself first why have this information in a holy book?
it's a clear indication that this book is not creater by a man!

tj-music.com

I could go on and on and produce more facts.
you need to ask yourself first why have this information in a holy book?
it's a clear indication that this book is not creater by a man! ...

According to the "Conversations with God" books, we all are God without really believing it.

If God works through me and all people it is only fair to assume that also the Qu'ran could be created by a human being.

Suff

We are part of GOD. Our soul is from him.

Just to clear one thing...The Quraan was not written.
it was never written. it was spoken / revealed to the world.

To have something written means you have to sit and think it as you write!
this is not the case as the prophet (PBUH) did not write or read!
He could never have produce such a collection of text.

it was from GOD.
Will produce more facts tomorrow.

Asiaprod

He could never have produce such a collection of text. it was from GOD.

Suff, I hate to be the one to rain on your parade, but just because there are some scientific facts on which the Quraan appears to have an inner knowledge does not make it an infallible proof of God to anyone other than a follower of your faith. Medicine and science were very well developed arts during the time the Quraan was revealed. The Chinese were street ahead of most other race in their understanding of these arts. the Greeks, the Romans, and I have no idea how many other races also had incredible insight.

And this concept of revealing not writing, which you feel justifies your claim to authenticity, also does not hold up very well. It is by no means unique to the Quraan; The Mormon bible was revealed in dreams, The Christian`s God wrote not one single word, he spoke and others wrote it down for him.These are just as credible proofs as you claim yours to be.

I do not believe your proof meets the criteria for actual proof, it still requires faith. It has to be deemed secondhand information and this can never be considered to be actual proof. It is your belief system and you are entitled to believe in it, but it does not follow that just because you believe in it, it must be true for others. Your "Proof" still requires you to have faith. You were not around when it was written, you know nobody that was, and like every other religion, it is second hand knowledge irrespective of whither it was revealed, spoken by work of mouth, or heard in a dream.

Stabshauptmann

Had a longer reply but lost my connection

Suff, that the Quraan is the word of God is strictly faith.
Those examples are open to interpretation, one I personally dont share. Nostradamus predicted the death and circumstances of a reigning king, the invention of planes, the rise of hitler and WW2 and the fall of the USSR under Gorbie. Depending on interpretation.
And I would have believed the seas not mixing and menstuation cycle would have been known at the time.

This is your faith Suff, not proof by any standards.

Saying it is the word of god adds no more weight than the morman bible or the traditional Christian gosepels. People believe these books based on faith. And this forum wont be used to say some are wrong/liars/mistaken/outdated.

Dades

Suff wrote:

I could go on and on and produce more facts.

I'd strongly advise you not to bother.

Suff, I thought at least you'd have something humourous for us, rather than a misguided attempt to proselytize. I mean, really, what were you expecting?

Suff

you missed the point here.... I was'nt joking!

The Quraan contains more and more evidance of it's authenticity. it doesn't need me or anyone to prove it.
I would need months to write them down and explain them.
there are no interpertations of the text, it's clear! the translation into english would not change the strucutre or the meaning of the words.


the arabs at that time were simple folk, science did'nt play any role for them. the example of short facts are only discovered in our time! not then!

How would people back then know of G-force, the layers of the earth atmosphere and the water cycle??? that's why they are in the Quraan to show people the signs.

it's not new to say these are only old world myths and prodictions, it's been told before! sometime 3000 years ago!

the bible or other books that some consider holy or have some elements in them are only writien by scholars and so called holy men.
even if they had a dream and then wrote it down it's not from a divine power!
why??.....you need to study the background of the three faiths it's too long to write (Islam, Christianity and Judaism)
the message in one, came from One Divine Power (GOD), there are rules and specific conditions for a man to receive these word from the divine. not any man can! (check the specifications of a Prophet)
they all came from one line of prohpets from Adam through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Iesa (AKA Jesus) to the last one Muhammad.

the Message that came with Abraham is the same as muhammad.
Moses's "Zabor" (old testement) was the same asking people to worship one GOD, later this message was changed depending on the human power looking after this message Christ came with the same message, to be changed 360 degree and have a large number of deletions and alternations until the message has faded.
the Bible according to this and the Bible according to that! why so many versions of ONE message!??

Faith alone don;t work! (IMO) you need something infront of you and in Islam it's the Quraan.
I would ask of any one who think the quraan is a book simular to the bible...To go and see that it's not!!
really I'm not forcing this at anyone...:)

it simple..I'm stating my opinion and would ask people to try it themselves to see y point other wise how can you argue?

Dades

All I'm hearing is.... talk talk talk talk OLD BOOK talk talk talk talk OLD BOOK talk talk talk talk WRITTEN BY GOD talk talk talk talk OLD BOOK talk talk talk MAN.

Is there anything tangible in this proof of God such as a cure for cancer or malaria? Or maybe an energy source to stop our dependancy on fossil fuels? Perhaps an early warning device for earthquakes? Or are all the scientific revelations conveniently "discovered" with the benefit of hindsight?

If God wrote this book introducing new science, why doesn't he ever update it?

Suff

if you actually read what I'm writing you can find out yourself!
hence me asking you to go and read it.

I cannot tell you nor you can say that GOD should update his Book!
There is no time limit here. it's valid for all times.

proven yet again, how? as Islam is still here and is the fastest growing in the world!

another thing.....try to be positive once in a while...being negative won't solve any discussion.

Dades

Suff wrote:

another thing.....try to be positive once in a while...being negative won't solve any discussion.

I'm not being negative, I'm strength-testing your theory. It's a very bold claim you're making, you know.

I cannot tell you nor you can say that GOD should update his Book!
There is no time limit here. it's valid for all times.

Actually that was my point. From the examples you've given us it's not for all times.

And why can't we ask why God hasn't updated his guide for humanity? If he gave scientific revelations all those years ago why won't he do it again with his people in the grips of a pandemic, and suffering natural disasters alarmingly often?

Suff

The Atheist wrote:

I'm not being negative, I'm strength-testing your theory. It's a very bold claim you're making, you know.

NO

The Atheist wrote:

Actually that was my point. From the examples you've given us it's not for all times.

Explain? my examples are just a small example of what's there to learn.
please if you have 30 min free visit this website

The Atheist wrote:

And why can't we ask why God hasn't updated his guide for humanity? If he gave scientific revelations all those years ago why won't he do it again with his people in the grips of a pandemic, and suffering natural disasters alarmingly often?

Because who are you or me to ask such a thing? don't you think he knows already what people would say and think!
I'm sure there are yet more to be discovered within the Quraan. cos at the moment a number of US based team are working on a new model of cement that can take on earth Quakes...the idea was taken from the Quraan.

AL Kaheif
" And they ask you about Zulqarnain. Say: I will recite to you an account of him. Surely We established him in the land and granted him means of access to every thing. So he followed a course. Until when he reached the place where the sun set, he found it going down into a black sea, and found by it a people.
We said: O Zulqarnain! either give them a chastisement or do them a benefit.
He said: As to him who is injust, we will chastise him, then shall he be returned to his Lord, and He will chastise him with an exemplary chastisement.
And as for him who believes and does good, he shall have goodly reward, and We will speak to him an easy word of Our command.
Then he followed (another) course.
Until when he reached the land of the rising of the sun, he found it rising on a people to whom We had given no shelter from It.
Even so! and We had a full knowledge of what he had.
Then he followed (another) course.
Until when he reached (a place) between the two mountains, he found on that side of them a people who could hardly understand a word.
They said: O Zulqarnain! surely Gog and Magog make mischief in the land. Shall we then pay you a tribute on condition that you should raise a barrier between us and them.
He said: That in which my Lord has established me is better, therefore you only help me with workers, I will make a fortified barrier between you and them.
Bring me blocks of iron; until when he had filled up the space between the two mountain sides, he said: Blow, until when he had made it (as) fire, he said: Bring me molten brass which I may pour over it.
So they were not able to scale it nor could they make a hole in it.
He said: This is a mercy from my Lord, but when the promise of my Lord comes to pass He will make it level with the ground, and the promise of my Lord is ever true. "

That's where they are basing their research.

the Quraan is full of information on business, law, marriage, death, birth, war, other civilisiations, past prohpets the after life, judgement day and futuer events.

if you don't have a copy of the Quraan I highly recomend you do,
see for yourself.
Thanks

Dades

Suff wrote:

NO

Uh, yes!

please if you have 30 min free visit this website

Sure maybe tomorrow.

Because who are you or me to ask such a thing? don't you think he knows already what people would say and think!

No I don't actually.

Responding to a question about GOD's actions with the response "Who are we to ask..." does not inspire me with belief.

It's the catch-all don't ask awkward questions response.

the_syco

Hi. This is GOD. I'm using this human's body so that I can talk to you sinners. You've all sinned! You're all going to hell. There's no relief down there, you know. The plumbing hasn't been working for the last 10,000 years (a t-rex did a sh|t and it blocked it all up), so you'll have to hold it till the plumbing is fixed.

As for the texts, well, they wrote it down wrong. So to clear up a few things, instead of talking through people (we all know how badly that can go), I'm speaking DIRECT to you...

I exist.

Now, go back to your church's, and start praying, mortals.

Stabshauptmann

Suff wrote:

The Quraan contains more and more evidance of it's authenticity. it doesn't need me or anyone to prove it.

Correct, no system of faith needs to be proved or disproved.

there are no interpertations of the text, it's clear!

Your opinion

the example of short facts are only discovered in our time! not then!

The thing about the seas would have been known to any sailor who ventured down to cape hope. Why, they may not have known, but why isnt said in the Quraan!

the bible or other books that some consider holy or have some elements in them are only writien by scholars and so called holy men.

Watch the so-called remark.

even if they had a dream and then wrote it down it's not from a divine power!

One more remark like that Suff and your second ban will be considerably longer than the first

the Bible according to this and the Bible according to that! why so many versions of ONE message!??

Its actually the goespel according to mathew, Mark, Luke or John; not bible. Some scholars say origional gospels written by the deciples were burned after some failed uprising or other. But Im not a scholar so Im not sure

Faith alone don;t work! (IMO)

Funny, cos thats all you've got. And attempts at converting people wont go down very well.