The Authenticity Of Holy Books

Stabshauptmann

From that website, the only miraculous prediction that I would have thought impossible without divine inspiration was atomic power.

Allah splits the seed and kernel. He brings forth the living from the dead, and produces the dead out of the living. That is Allah, so how are you misguided? (Qur'an, 6:95)

The terms "seed" (al-habb) and "kernel" (an-nawa) in the above verse may indicate the splitting of the atom

Thats clutching at straws IMO, if you have faith its not, but to say its a clear reference is to be niave.

Its a great book and if it gives you solice good for you. If you would like to share its insights this is the right forum. But if you continue to proselytize, you'll be banned.

Suff

Good to see people visited the site, thanks

I'll will post a more "mainstream" point tomorrow after re-gouping my thoughts.

Salaam

stevenmu

the_syco wrote:

blah blah blah

There's no need to mock other posters beliefs (I'm assuming for now you were trying to make some kind of point, and not just outright trolling). Please read the charter or risk a banning.

Asiaprod

I can see that this is going to turn into
"The Mother of All Threads"
excuse the intentional pun:)

Tar.Aldarion

There is no proof either way,All people have is faith.
You can not say God exists or doesn't exist.
If there is a 'God' however,I doubt any religion is correct but that is my personal belief.
To blindly believe in a religion you have been brought up in is closed minded as is being an aethiest.Even if you do not believe there is a God and therefore are an aethiest you are being a little close minded as you have no proof.You are blindly believing what is essentially your religion just as people blindly believe there is a God.You are having faith that there is no God.You cannot say either way.Agnosticism seems to be a rational alternative and I suppose that is what i deem my self to be,an agnostic.
Anyway no authenticity of holy books can ever be given unless a big ole God comes down,proves he is a God somehow and tells us that of course,the mormons were right

Dades

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

To blindly believe in a religion you have been brought up in is closed minded as is being an aethiest.

Perhaps you should learn to spell atheist before you render your unerring judgement.

Or better still, go back to watching Spongebob Squarepants.

Suff

In Islam.....

To proof the existane of a Greater power would require a solid, physical thing. otherwise why do we have all these books?

they are used as a proof, giving us knowledge, Law and guidance on how to live and communicate with other people.

The Old Testement law was brought by Moses, christ added few new laws and corrected some in the New Testement, up until the message was fully completed by Muhammad in the Quraan.

(These are the Books that we know of..)

if you want GOD to come down and say "Hey people I'm God here I am worship me" people might go ahead with that and believe but only until they forget and change things back to the way they used to be.
Some of you might know the stories in the Bibile (Joseph, Noah, Lut,...) people asked the same thing "Show us GOD and we'll believe!" God sent them a number of signs but they refused to believe. we know what happened there.

To answer any claims on Holy-Men or People who see Dreams of inlightment.

To have a contact with the divine power a human must satisfy a number of elements and requirments that would make him into what we know as a prohopet.

Prohptes are known in their community, honest, greatly mannered, well spoken and have to have the seal of prophethood.

The Seal of Prophethood
( A black mole, the size of a olive on the first vertebra of the human spine, near the head. containing three long black hairs)

if they don't have that they are NOT recognised as messengers from the divine power (GOD).

but still some people would doubt this so the prophets/ messengers would need to have further proof.

The proof relies in the miracles sent with the prohpets, each had his power and a his charecter (plays a big part)

some well known examples.....

Solumon had the bility to speak to Animals, Demons and control the wind.
Moses had magic as the Magic was big at his time, Iesa (aka Christ) had healing powers when medicine was the main thing for that time and Muhammad had the Quraan as Langauge/ poetry was the main power for arabs.

The magic and the healing powers can be seen if you lived in their time otherwise you have to have faith that they did have these powers.
My point is that the Quraan being the miracle of Muhammad it did last longer than any other miracle. it's uncganged un-altered to this day.(1417 years I think)

That has to be something to take a note of.

Wibbs

Suff wrote:

The Quraan has not been changed since it was revealed 1430 years ago.
One text no additions or deletions.

True, I'll give you that one. The Quran is a more "authentic" historical document than the bible as an example. It has a very good unbroken history from the time of the prophet.

The Quraan contains a large number of facts that is held today by the world Sicenctists.

Right so, lets have a look.

Examples?

*THE CREATION OF HUMAN BEINGS FROM WATER:

"Do those who disbelieve not see that the heavens and the earth were sewn together and then We unstitched them and that We made from water every living thing? So will they not believe?" (Qur'an, 21:30)

While we are made up largely of water, we are hardly "created" from it. You could argue that this refers to evolution of life from a watery environment, but it seems vague. In any event many ancient scholars before Islam had the idea that life came from water.

*THE FECUNDATING WINDS:

"And We send the fecundating winds, then cause water to descend from the sky, therewith providing you with water in abundance." (Qur'an, 15:22)

Water in the form of rain comes form clouds? Simple observation I would have said. Where's the Sura that states that the sea evaporates this water to make the clouds fecund in the first place.

*THE SEAS NOT MINGLING WITH ONE ANOTHER:
One of the properties of seas that has only recently been discovered is related in a verse of the Qur'an as follows..

"He has let loose the two seas, converging together, with a barrier between them they do not break through." (Qur'an, 55:19-20)

You got me there. Never heard of the scientific bit so....

*THE PROGRAMMING IN GENES:
"From what thing did He create him? From a drop of sperm He created him and proportioned him. Then He eases the way for him." (Qur'an, 80:18-20)

The word "qaddarahu" translated as "proportioned" in the above verse, comes from the Arabic verb "qadare. It translates as "arranging, setting out, planning, programming, seeing the future, the writing of everything in destiny (by Allah).

To be fair, this idea was commonplace way before Islam. Aristotle writes of sperm mixed in the womb brings about creation of life and birth. Again, simple observation and common knowledge from before the time of Islam. Also, where is the mention of the other 50% of the birth equation? Namely the female egg. The notion of the female egg was largely unknown at the time(Aristotle made the same error, instead the idea of the female "matrix" and blood clots was the main theory). Surely God would know about the womans egg being involved in the whole thing?

*THE MENSTRUAL PERIOD:

"Allah knows what every female bears and every shrinking of the womb and every swelling. Everything has its measure with Him." (Qur'an, 13:8)

Ask any woman about her periods and most will tell you about the bloating of her belly that comes and goes with every month. Again, simple observation.

*THE IDENTITY IN THE FINGERPRINT:
While it is stated in the Qur'an that it is easy for Allah to bring man back to life after death, peoples' fingerprints are particularly emphasized:

"Yes, We are able to put together in perfect order the very tips of his fingers." (Qur'an, 75:4)

Again it is easy to see, even to a primitive mind that fingerprints are complicated. The verse concerned doesn't say they are different for each person, just that they would be difficult to reproduce. It could have just as easily said "hairs on the head".

---

I could go on and on and produce more facts.

Please do.

you need to ask yourself first why have this information in a holy book?
it's a clear indication that this book is not creater by a man!

Well I mentioned Aristotle before. Other ancient scientists/philosophers Pliny, Euclid etc had far more science in their writings. Does this make them holy books created by God?

Suff

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

attempts at converting people wont go down very well.

I'm sorry but I'm not trying to convert anyone here...it's a discussion and I'm trying to argue my point.

if people want to convert it won't be as fast, easy,simple as this!
people need time and resources before they can make such step.

try to be positive man

Suff

Wibbs....

Thanks for the good questions...I'll post the answers today (God willing)
I can't produce the exact Quranic text as I have to be accurate here so it might take some time.

Wibbs

Suff wrote:

The Quraan contains more and more evidance of it's authenticity. it doesn't need me or anyone to prove it.

Suff, in your mind it does and fair enough, I'm crtainly not here to question yours or anyone elses personal faith

there are no interpertations of the text, it's clear! the translation into english would not change the strucutre or the meaning of the words.

Funny, usually the first argument I hear over in the Islam forum when possibly "dubious" passages are quoted from the Quran, is that one must know Arabic to understand them, or that the passages need to be studied for many years by reigious scholars.

the arabs at that time were simple folk, science did'nt play any role for them. the example of short facts are only discovered in our time! not then!

Arabia and the lands in the middle east are considered the cradle of civilisation by many. That area has a history of technology and science(some of it still applicable today) going back many many 1000's of years. The idea that these people were isolated ignorants until Islam came along to enlighten them is plainly silly.

How would people back then know of G-force, the layers of the earth atmosphere and the water cycle??? that's why they are in the Quraan to show people the signs.

Show us the quotes and let us make our own mind up.

the bible or other books that some consider holy or have some elements in them are only writien by scholars and so called holy men.

The so called in your opinion.

if you want GOD to come down and say "Hey people I'm God here I am worship me"

That level of clarity would be a bonus.:D

people asked the same thing "Show us GOD and we'll believe!" God sent them a number of signs but they refused to believe. we know what happened there.

Yes it seems God punished them for Him not being clear enough. As you said if God showed up and said "Hello", things may have been different. Seems a very cruel way to operate.

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

From that website, the only miraculous prediction that I would have thought impossible without divine inspiration was atomic power.

Quote:
Allah splits the seed and kernel. He brings forth the living from the dead, and produces the dead out of the living. That is Allah, so how are you misguided? (Qur'an, 6:95)

The terms "seed" (al-habb) and "kernel" (an-nawa) in the above verse may indicate the splitting of the atom

As you've said, it's not exactly clear. In any case, it's far far more likely that it just refers to seed germination. In many older cultures a seed was considered almost an inert stone with only the potential for life. When a seed germinates the shell splits. I'd warrant it has little to do with atoms of any sort.

Suff

The Arabic is clear for arabic speaking people, that was my point, however to translate it into english will not change the meaning.

Wibbs wrote:

Arabia and the lands in the middle east are considered the cradle of civilisation by many. That area has a history of technology and science(some of it still applicable today) going back many many 1000's of years. The idea that these people were isolated ignorants until Islam came along to enlighten them is plainly silly.

No not silly....the cradle of civilisation were only in the Sham region (Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Palastine) and the Land of the Two rivers (Iraq)the arabs of the arabian peninsula, what know known is Saudi Arabia were just nomads, bedwen people. there might be some level of science but not as advanced as you may think!

Wibbs wrote:

Show us the quotes and let us make our own mind up.

Sure, that's the way to go,...examples:

---

*-THE LAYERS OF THE ATMOSPHERE:

One fact about the universe revealed in the verses of the Qur'an is that the sky is made up of seven layers:

"It is He Who created everything on the earth for you and then directed His attention up to heaven and arranged it into seven regular heavens. He has knowledge of all things." (Qur'an, 2:29)

"Then He turned to heaven when it was smoke. In two days He determined them as seven heavens and revealed, in every heaven, its own mandate."(Qur'an, 41:11-12)

The word "heavens," which appears in many verses in the Qur'an, is used to refer to the sky above the Earth.

Today, it is known that the world's atmosphere consists of different layers that lie on top of each other.19 Based on the criteria of chemical contents or air temperature, the definitions made have determined the atmosphere of the earth as seven layers.20 According to the "Limited Fine Mesh Model (LFMMII)," a model of atmosphere used to estimate weather conditions for 48 hours, the atmosphere is also 7 layers. According to the modern geological definitions the seven layers of atmosphere are as follows:

1. Troposphere

2. Stratosphere

3. Mesosphere

4. Thermosphere

5. Exosphere

6. Ionosphere

7. Magnetosphere

The Qur'an says, "[He] revealed, in every heaven, its own mandate," in Surah Fussilat 12. In other words, Allah is stating that He assigned each heaven its own duty. Truly, as will be seen in following chapters, each one of these layers has vital duties for the benefit of human kind and all other living things on the Earth. Each layer has a particular function, ranging from forming rain to preventing harmful rays, from reflecting radio waves to averting the harmful effects of meteors.

The verses below inform us about the appearance of the seven layers of the atmosphere:

"Do you not see how He created seven heavens in layers?" (Qur'an, 71:15)
"He Who created the seven heavens in layers…" (Qur'an, 67:3)


-*THE RETURNING SKY:

The verse 11 of Surat at-Tariq in the Qur'an, refers to the "returning" function of the sky.

"[I swear] by Heaven which returns." (Qur'an, 86:11)

The word "rajaai" interpreted as "return" in Qur'an translations has meanings of "sending back" or "returning." As is known, the atmosphere surrounding the Earth consists of many layers. Each layer serves an important purpose for the benefit of life on Earth. Research has revealed that these layers have the function of turning the materials or rays they are exposed to back into space or back down to the Earth.

Water:
The presence of water is essential for life on Earth. One of the factors acting in the formation of water is the Troposphere, one of the layers of the atmosphere. The troposphere layer enables water vapour rising from the surface of the Earth to be condensed from whence it returns to the Earth in the form of rain.

Sun Ray:
The atmosphere layer that blocks the rays that might be fatal to life on Earth is the Ozonosphere. The Ozonosphere turns harmful cosmic rays like ultraviolet back to space, hence preventing them from reaching the Earth and harming life.

Radio wave:Each layer of the atmosphere has beneficial attributes for human beings. For example, the Ionosphere layer, one of the upper layers of the atmosphere, reflects radio waves broadcast from a certain centre back down to the Earth, thus enabling broadcasts to be received from long distances.

The troposphere, 13 to 15 kilometres above the Earth, enables water vapour rising from the surface of the Earth to be condensed and turned back as rain. The ozone layer, the lower layer of stratosphere at an altitude of 25 kilometres, reflects harmful radiation and ultraviolet light coming from space and turns both back into space.

The ionosphere reflects radio waves broadcast from the Earth back down to different parts of the world just like a passive communications satellite. Thus, it makes wireless communication, radio, and television broadcasting possible over long distances. The magnetosphere layer turns the harmful radioactive particles emitted by the Sun and other stars back into space before they reach the Earth.

The fact that this property of the atmosphere's layers, that was only demonstrated in the recent past was announced centuries ago in the Qur'an


-*THE LAYERS OF THE EARTH:
One item of information about the Earth given in the Qur'an is its similarity to the seven-layered sky:

"It is Allah Who created the seven heavens and of the earth the same number, the Command descending down through all of them, so that you might know that Allah has power over all things and that Allah encompasses all things in His knowledge." (Qur'an, 65:12)

The information in the above verse is confirmed in scientific sources, wherein it is explained that the Earth consists of seven strata. These, as scientists have identified, are:

1st layer: Lithosphere (water)

2nd layer: Lithosphere (land)

3rd layer: Asthenosphere

4th layer: Upper Mantle

5th layer: Inner Mantle

6th layer: Outer Core

7th layer: Inner Core

The word lithosphere is derived from the Greek word lithos, meaning stone, which is a hard stratum forming the Earth's top layer. It is quite thin in comparison to the other strata. The lithosphere under the oceans is still thinner, and is a region with volcanic activity. Its average thickness is 80 km. It is colder and harder than the other strata, and therefore, forms the earth's shell.

Below the lithosphere is the stratum known as the asthenosphere, from the Greek word for "weak," asthenes. This layer is thinner than the lithosphere and shifts. It was formed of hot, semi-solid substances capable of melting when exposed to high temperatures and pressure over geological time.

It is thought that the hard lithosphere floats or moves over the slowly moving asthenosphere. 23 Under these layers is a high-temperature layer some 2,900 km thick, made up of semi-solid rock known as the mantle.

This contains more iron, magnesium and calcium than the crust, and is also hotter and denser, because temperature and density in the Earth increase with depth.

At the centre of the Earth is the core, approximately twice as dense as the mantle.
The reason for that density is that it contains a higher proportion of metals (iron-nickel alloy) than rock.

The Earth's core consists of two parts.
One is the 2,200 km thick liquid outer core, the other a 1,250 km thick solid inner core. The liquid outer core provides the Earth's magnetic field as the planet rotates.

-*THE PROPORTION OF RAIN (Water Cycle):

Another item of information provided in the Qur'an about rain is that it is sent down to Earth in "due measure." This is mentioned in Surat az-Zukhruf as follows:

"It is He Who sends down water in due measure from the sky by which We bring a dead land back to life. That is how you too will be raised [from the dead]". (Qur'an, 43:11)

This measured quantity in rain has again been discovered by modern research. It is estimated that in one second, approximately 16 million tons of water evaporates from the Earth.

This figure amounts to 513 trillion tons of water in one year.
This number is equal to the amount of rain that falls on the Earth in a year.

water continuously circulates in a balanced cycle, according to a "measure." Life on Earth depends on this water cycle.
Even if all the available technology in the world were to be employed for this purpose, this cycle could not be reproduced artificially.

Philipp Lenard, a German physicist who received the Nobel Prize in physics in 1905, found that the fall speed increased with drop diameter until a size of 4.5 mm (0.18 inch). For larger drops, however, the fall speed did not increase beyond 8 metres per second (26 ft/sec).54 He attributed this to the changes in drop shape caused by the air flow as the drop size increased.
The change in shape thus increased the air resistance of the drop and slowed its fall rate.

---

more anyone?

Wibbs wrote:

The so called in your opinion.

I'm not being surcastic, please read my post on the prophets above to understand my point.

Wibbs wrote:

Yes it seems God punished them for Him not being clear enough. As you said if God showed up and said "Hello", things may have been different. Seems a very cruel way to operate.

Now who's being silly!

Suff

another example of the rain:
-*THE FORMATION OF RAIN:

How rain was formed remained a great mystery for quite some time. Only after the weather radar was invented was it possible to discover the stages by which rain is formed.

According to this discovery, the formation of rain takes place in three stages. First, the "raw material" of rain rises up into the air with the wind. Later, clouds are formed, and finally raindrops appear.

The Qur'an's account of the formation of rain refers exactly to this process. In one verse, this formation is described in this way:

"It is Allah Who sends the winds which stir up clouds which He spreads about the sky however He wills. He forms them into dark clumps and you see the rain come pouring out from the middle of them. When He makes it fall on those of His servants He wills, they rejoice." (Qur'an, 30:48)

examin each stage?

FIRST STAGE: "It is Allah Who sends the winds..."

Countless air bubbles formed by the foaming of the oceans continuously burst and cause water particles to be ejected towards the sky.
These particles, which are rich in salt, are then carried away by winds and rise upward in the atmosphere. These particles, which are called aerosols, function as water traps, and form cloud drops by collecting around the water vapour themselves, which rises from the seas as tiny droplets.

SECOND STAGE: ".... which stir up clouds which He spreads about the sky however He wills. He forms them into dark clumps..."

The clouds are formed from water vapour that condenses around the salt crystals or dust particles in the air. Because the water droplets in these clouds are very small (with a diameter between 0.01 and 0.02 mm), the clouds are suspended in the air, and spread across the sky. Thus, the sky is covered in clouds.

THIRD STAGE: "…and you see the rain come pouring out from the middle of them"
The water particles that surround salt crystals and dust particles thicken and form raindrops, so, drops that become heavier than the air leave the clouds and start to fall to the ground as rain.

In another verse, the following information is given about the formation of rain:

"Have you not seen how Allah drives along the clouds, then joins them together, then makes them into a stack, and then you see the rain come out of it? And He sends down from the sky mountain masses [of clouds] with cold hail in them, striking with it anyone He wills and averting it from anyone He wills. The brightness of His lightning almost blinds the sight." (Qur'an, 24:43)

Scientists studying cloud types came across surprising results with regards to the formation of rain clouds. Rain clouds are formed and shaped according to definite systems and stages. The stages of formation of one kind of rain cloud, cumulonimbus, are these:

STAGE 1, Being driven along: Clouds are carried along, that is, they are driven along, by the wind.

STAGE 2, Joining: Then, small clouds (cumulonimbus clouds) driven along by the wind join together, forming a larger cloud.55

STAGE 3, Stacking: When the small clouds join together, updrafts within the larger cloud increase. The updrafts near the centre of the cloud are stronger than those near the edges.
These updrafts cause the cloud body to grow vertically, so the cloud is stacked up. This vertical growth causes the cloud body to stretch into cooler regions of the atmosphere, where drops of water and hail formulate and begin to grow larger and larger.
When these drops of water and hail become too heavy for the updrafts to support them, they begin to fall from the cloud as rain, hail or snow.





.......I'm tired now, no posts please let me relax abit

Dades

"It is Allah Who sends the winds which stir up clouds which He spreads about the sky however He wills. He forms them into dark clumps and you see the rain come pouring out from the middle of them. When He makes it fall on those of His servants He wills, they rejoice." (Qur'an, 30:48)

How could you possibly read all those meteorological intricacies into this type of quote? The above paragraph could have been written by anybody looking at the sky...

"Wind brings clouds, dark clumps, rain from the middle of them..."

Is says nothing other than what you see when you watch a raincloud approach.

You are reading things that ARE NOT THERE.

Asiaprod

Suff wrote:

.......I'm tired now, no posts please let me relax abit

Suff, that is probably the best thing you have said today, go have a good sleep.:)

Tar.Aldarion

The Atheist wrote:

Perhaps you should learn to spell atheist before you render your unerring judgement.

Or better still, go back to watching Spongebob Squarepants.

Way to rip apart my argument my good man.A Spelling mistake I made at 02:41AM,Truely obliterated what I said.
How about you actually address the points I made after that instead of making the classical argument people use when they have nothing to say back to a point.
I have seen Spongebob Squarepants the odd time,quite good.

Suff

you still not looking at the other refernces, so what's your say on the layers of the earth and sky???
the rain cycle? come on you can just argue like that.

also I think I've came up with good examlpes today :P

Wibbs

*-THE LAYERS OF THE ATMOSPHERE:

I knew I'd seen this before. Seven has been a mystical number for a very long time. One of the reasons for this was the number of planets the ancients could see As one of the links below states the Sun, Moon, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus, and Saturn. To divide the "heavens" into seven spheres is quite common in mythology and doesn't refer to seven layers of the atmosphere. It's an astrological reference at best and a commonly held pre copernican view of the universe(or heavens). It would be natural for the people of Arabia to continue with this idea as it was the current one.

http://www.eliki.com/ancient/myth/daily/

http://webexhibits.org/calendars/week.html

This graphic illustrates the concept better

http://www.12x30.net/early1.html

The quote "by heaven which returns" could, in fairness mean anything Suff

As for the proof contained in the seven layers of earth. You will find the ancients also had the notion that there were likely seven layers below as above. Seven layers to hell and all that. I find it interesting that in your example lithosphere is mentioned twice, so actually there are six layers of the earth in science.

The cloud formation proof is as The Atheist points out a bit of a stretch. In any event, there is nothing there that would not have been known by the ancients. Even more by Bedouin tribes, who are very aware of rainfall and water tables. They've had to be to survive. I've met some and those lads can pretty much find and get water from a stone, so to speak.

Still Suff, when people ask for examples and references, you keep them coming. I'll give you that. Credit where credits due.

Suff

Wibbs wrote:

*-THE LAYERS OF THE ATMOSPHERE:

I knew I'd seen this before. Seven has been a mystical number for a very long time. One of the reasons for this was the number of planets the ancients could see As one of the links below states the Sun, Moon, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus, and Saturn. To divide the "heavens" into seven spheres is quite common in mythology and doesn't refer to seven layers of the atmosphere. It's an astrological reference at best and a commonly held pre copernican view of the universe(or heavens). It would be natural for the people of Arabia to continue with this idea as it was the current one.

Yes seven is a mystical number and still is.

please read carefully...

"Then He turned to heaven when it was smoke. In two days He determined them as seven heavens and revealed, in every heaven, its own mandate."(Qur'an, 41:11-12)

each layer have it's own function (I explained them in the previous post) so I don't think this would apply to the mythology of planets.

Wibbs wrote:

The quote "by heaven which returns" could, in fairness mean anything Suff

can you give me one example please, to have a better idea?

Wibbs wrote:

Still Suff, when people ask for examples and references, you keep them coming. I'll give you that. Credit where credits due.

Thank you

Dades

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

Way to rip apart my argument my good man.A Spelling mistake I made at 02:41AM,Truely obliterated what I said.
How about you actually address the points I made after that instead of making the classical argument people use when they have nothing to say back to a point.

Tar, if you're going to classify a belief group as "closed minded" at least extend them the courtesy of spelling it correctly (once is a typo, twice is not).

Even if you do not believe there is a God and therefore are an aethiest you are being a little close minded as you have no proof.

In the realm of religion, since when did anyone have proof for anything? (shush, Suff). Why does an atheist need proof that something doesn't exist, when none exists to say that it does? Atheism comes in many forms and frequently hinges on the definition of a "god". Your definition and mine may well be different, so until such time as you are versed in any particular individual's beliefs, I suggest you keep your generalisations to yourself.

To assert that your outlook is correct, and all others are "close minded" is naive. You can believe something whole-heartedly and have an open mind.

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

Anyway no authenticity of holy books can ever be given unless a big ole God comes down,proves he is a God somehow and tells us that of course,the mormons were right

With that - I concur.

Wibbs

Suff wrote:

Yes seven is a mystical number and still is.

please read carefully...

"Then He turned to heaven when it was smoke. In two days He determined them as seven heavens and revealed, in every heaven, its own mandate."(Qur'an, 41:11-12)

each layer have it's own function (I explained them in the previous post) so I don't think this would apply to the mythology of planets

Well mandate is different to function, but here the problem may be the translation of the Arabic. In any case, the planets were assigned different "functions" or meanings in astrological terms, so the passage would still read correctly from that viewpoint. While you explained their scientific functions, the Quran in that passage at least, does not.

Also on re-reading the Quranic passage a second time, it appears to suggest that the earth was created before the "heavens".

He Who created everything on the earth for you and then directed His attention up to heaven

. Now if we take your view that the "heavens" is referring to the atmosphere, then the Quran says everything on earth(including life etc) was created before the atmosphere. Any understanding of science would say this is impossible. If you take my view that it refers to the 7 "planets", then it's equally false scientifically. It would mean the Earth was created before the rest of the universe. The theory goes back to the pre-copernican view that the Earth is the center of all things(which we now know isn't the case).

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/041.qmt.html#041.010

If you continue to read the relevent passages that you quote, you will also see that according to the Quran, the stars(lights/lamps) were also created after the earth. Interestingly it also says that Allah "adorned the lower/nether heaven with lights". this would suggest that the stars are in the lowest levels of the atmosphere. Even if we take that it means the last "heaven" it still means that according to the Quran, the stars are part of the atmosphere. Which we know is untrue. Again we're back to the ancient pre-copernican view of the universe.

Tar.Aldarion

The Atheist wrote:

Tar, if you're going to classify a belief group as "closed minded" at least extend them the courtesy of spelling it correctly (once is a typo, twice is not).

Saw an atheist spell it wrong on boards today,go with the new trend man!
Anyway if my spelling offended you I'm sorry...long day....bulmers.....I just didn't read your name enough I guess.:).[/QUOTE]

The Atheist wrote:

In the realm of religion, since when did anyone have proof for anything? (shush, Suff). Why does an atheist need proof that something doesn't exist, when none exists to say that it does? Atheism comes in many forms and frequently hinges on the definition of a "god". Your definition and mine may well be different, so until such time as you are versed in any particular individual's beliefs, I suggest you keep your generalisations to yourself.).

@generalisations;everything I express is-in my opinion-I don't feel that I need to keep typing IMO for people to get that.
Now Atheists.I was just going on the definition.An atheist believes there is/are no god/s.
The basis for this is,there is no proof of God therefore, why believe in one?
It's just not logical to believe something without proof.
There is no proof so you believe there is no God.Yet there is no proof that there is no God so therefore by your own logic you should conclude that you do not know if there is a God or not.So agnosticism for me.Ie,until proof is given you know not which is true.Is Atheism not therefore, having the faith that there is no God and hence very much like a religion?

The Atheist wrote:

To assert that your outlook is correct, and all others are "close minded" is naive. You can believe something whole-heartedly and have an open mind.

You can believe that there is a God,you can believe that there is none but these are just believes,faith.You can believe Atlantis exists,you can believe it doesn't but one does not have proof either way.To say.there is an atlantis or there is no atlantis for certainty in your mind is ridiculous.This can be applied to anything(unicorns,vampires,ghosts,ufos's etc)Can agnosticism not be construed as 'having an open mind' as it is the belief that we cannot know for sure at the time being.Do you know for sure there is no God?I know you believe that there is no God but you cannot discount that there might be?Is it possible to be both agnostic and Atheist.Ie you do not know whether there is a God or not but if put to it you would say 'probably not'.
Maybe there should be some sort of sub-sections.....

Asiaprod

Now Atheists.I was just going on the definition.An atheist believes there is/are no god/s.
The basis for this is,there is no proof of God therefore, why believe in one?
It's just not logical to believe something without proof.
There is no proof so you believe there is no God.Yet there is no proof that there is no God so therefore by your own logic you should conclude that you do not know if there is a God or not.So agnosticism for me.Ie,until proof is given you know not which is true.Is Atheism not therefore, having the faith that there is no God and hence very much like a religion?

Tar. Aldarion, you have just given me a headache.
I have no idea what you are trying to say. I respect your right to say what you feel, I just wish I understod what you said.

Tar.Aldarion

Asiaprod wrote:

Wibbs, you have just given me a headache, I have no idea what you are trying to say. I respect your right to say what you feel, I just wish I understod what you said.

Why did you quote me and talk about wibbs?? :eek:

Asiaprod

Oops Tar. Aldarion and Wibbs, please accept my apologies, blame it on that headache:o

Tar.Aldarion

Asiaprod wrote:

Tar. Aldarion, you have just given me a headache.
I have no idea what you are trying to say. I respect your right to say what you feel, I just wish I understod what you said.

Ok now that I am sure that it is me that has given you your headache(mission accomplished)
What can you not understand from that?

Now Atheists.I was just going on the definition.An atheist believes there is/are no god/s.
The basis for this is,there is no proof of God therefore, why believe in one?
It's just not logical to believe something without proof.
There is no proof so you believe there is no God.Yet there is no proof that there is no God so therefore by your own logic you should conclude that you do not know if there is a God or not.So agnosticism for me.Ie,until proof is given you know not which is true.Is Atheism not therefore, having the faith that there is no God and hence very much like a religion?

ah screw it I will try to clarify line by line,so you can say what confuses you.:)

I was just going on the definition.An atheist believes there is/are no god/s.
The basis for this is,there is no proof of God therefore, why believe in one?
It's just not logical to believe something without proof.

Ok, an atheist believes there there is/are no god/s.
They believe this because there is no proof that a God exists.
They believe that is is not logical to believe in something without any proof; just like somebody would not believe in dragons.

There is no proof so you believe there is no God.Yet there is no proof that there is no God so therefore by your own logic you should conclude that you do not know if there is a God or not.

They believe there is no God because of lack of proof but their belief of there being no God is also founded on a lack of proof.Ie they have a sort of faith that there is no god.So a breakdown of what people believe could go like this.one could believe in multiple/singular/no God/s,It is just different faiths.
So they discount there being a God yet believe that there is none.I'm saying that surely they can't say that there is no God so maybe Atheism is like a sub-section of agnosticism.They can't know if there is a God or not without proof(agnosticism) but they believe there is not a God anyway.

So agnosticism for me.Ie,until proof is given you know not which is true.

That's why I am agnostic,one cannot know if a God exists or a God does not exist.
Maybe belief in a God makes that God exist for all we know.

Is Atheism not therefore, having the faith that there is no God and hence very much like a religion?

Having faith that there is no God is the same thing as having faith that there is one.They are just two different faiths.What I'm trying to say is that I think any open minded person that believes in God or one that does not believe in God falls into the agnostic category because they do not discount the fact that they may be wrong.
Agnostic subsections-->open minded person in a religion

---

>open minded atheist.

stevenmu

I think that most athiests, at least those who've considered their athiesm, see that there is a lack of evidence for any type of God, and not believing in God is the default position they fall back to due to this lack of evidence. They see believing in God as a 'yes' or 'no' question, and with no reason to go for 'yes' they just stick with no (that's a little simplistic but...). This type of athiest would generally accept that there is the possibility of a God, or a 'something', and would change their position if given good reason to. There is a large area of overlap between athiests and agnostics in this regard.

There is of course the type of athiest who says 'religion is ghey, I'm an athiest, that's so much cooler'. These people are of course, closed-minded idiots.

Asiaprod

They believe there is no God because of lack of proof but their belief of there being no God is also founded on a lack of proof.Ie they have a sort of faith that there is no god.So a breakdown of what people believe could go like this.one could believe in multiple/singular/no God/s,It is just different faiths.

Ah, got it, thank you, the headache is gone, the mission is accomplished.

The problem I have is with your usage of the word FAITH.
I can associate having FAITH in a god.
I cannot associate using the term FAITH to signify not believing in a god. To me faith is a word I associate with a religeous usage. Believing in no God is hardly a religion since having a god or deity is what defines something as a religion.
Have I returned the favor and given you a headache now:)

Tar.Aldarion

stevenmu wrote:

I think that most athiests, at least those who've considered their athiesm, see that there is a lack of evidence for any type of God, and not believing in God is the default position they fall back to due to this lack of evidence. They see believing in God as a 'yes' or 'no' question, and with no reason to go for 'yes' they just stick with no (that's a little simplistic but...). This type of athiest would generally accept that there is the possibility of a God, or a 'something', and would change their position if given good reason to. There is a large area of overlap between athiests and agnostics in this regard.

There is of course the type of athiest who says 'religion is ghey, I'm an athiest, that's so much cooler'. These people are of course, closed-minded idiots.

I hate those latter atheists and I have come accross many...just like The Hardcore Pope types

I see it as a sort of venn diagram,see attachment

Asiaprod wrote:

Ah, got it, thank you, the headache is gone, the mission is accomplished.

The problem I have is with your usage of the word FAITH.
I can associate having FAITH in a god.
I cannot associate using the term FAITH to signify not believing in a god. To me faith is a word I associate with a religeous usage.

Well faith can have many meanings outside if believing in God my good man,
Here's a list
Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.
Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
often Faith Christianity. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
A set of principles or beliefs.

I'm glad we have that cleared up (:

Believing in no God is hardly a religion since having a god or deity is what defines something as a religion.

Religion can also be defined as having,
A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.(dictionary.com for reference)

I'm glad we have that cleared up (:

Have I returned the favor and given you a headache now

Nope,headaches are things that God send to the naughty to keep them in line
You gave me a cramp.:p

Asiaprod

Nope,headaches are things that God send to the naughty to keep them in line
You gave me a cramp

Touche, I will settle for second best and the cramp. I will work on giving you a headache teh next time:)