Agnosticism

MrJoeSoap

Following on from a discussion I had earlier with a friend, I decided to search boards for opinions on agnosticism and was amazed that I couldn't find any threads specifically on it.

So, looking up the most recent Irish census I was even more amazed to find that only 1,028 Irish people are classed as agnostic. Now, I'm fairly sure I'm classed as Catholic, although I am in fact an agnostic, and I know a few other people in the same boat so I won't say the statistics are entirely accurate. I would, however, have thought that a much larger section of the Irish population would fall under this category.

Personally, I can't consider myself being anything other than agnostic. I have no problems with people with religious belief, but have seen enough to feel safe in my choice of "faith".

Does anyone else out there have an opinion of agnosticism they want to share?

stevenmu

The thing about agnosticism is that it's really a huge and wide ranging catch-all for all kinds of level of belief, ranging from 'I don't think there's a God, but maybe there is something' to 'I'm almost sure there is a God/something, but I'm not sure what form'. People belonging to the various religions or belief systems, all have things in common to discuss, but really the only thing common to agnostics is their uncertainty.

MrJoeSoap

Very true, I remember reading an article somewhere that said deep down everyone is an agnostic. Maybe not everyone, but I reckon deep inside every person with religious beliefs has some doubting/questioning tendencies. I guess that can be defined as agnostic at a bit of a stretch. I'm actually in between the two examples you gave above, my beliefs are middle-of-the-road agnosticism. Possibly leaning towards atheism, however.

I'm still baffled as to why so few people chose agnostic in the most recent census. I'm sure there must be far more people out there who would place themselves in that category, or maybe I'm reading too much into myself and my peers.

Dades

I remember filling out the last census - but I don't remember there being an agnostic option. Maybe I missed it. Think I just ticked "other".

There were some great discussions on agnosticism/atheism on the philosophy boards, but these seem to have been archived or something. There have been other threads around Boards, mainly ones that start off discussing something else and a clash occurs between believers and born again pagans.

I lobbied for an atheism/agnosticism forum so that discussions didn't have to happen in Christianity (beseiged by pagans recently) and Spirituality. Didn't get too much support, though with the amount of religious banter that's been around recently maybe this idea should be mooted again.

But yes - I think there's a lot more agnostics out there than the census would have us believe.

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Maybe not everyone, but I reckon deep inside every person with religious beliefs has some doubting/questioning tendencies.

My sig used to read "faith is the belief in something you know isn't true".

stevenmu

I'd guess there are a lot more agnostics out there than the census figures show. Like The Athiest says, there isn't really a box to tick for it, and I think when people are filling out census forms they tend to try and keep thinggs consise and exact. Also, for many reasons, people would still claim to be catholic on a census form, even though they'd claim they aren't if you ask them in person.

Tar.Aldarion

MrJoeSoap wrote:

So, looking up the most recent Irish census I was even more amazed to find that only 1,028 Irish people are classed as agnostic.

1,028!I practically know more people personally that are agnostic than that figure for ireland
Nearly everybody I know says that is what they are but on a form I don't think they would,people go for the easy option.
I was brought up in a catholic family so instead of ticking other and writing agnostic I would probably just tick the catholic box,even though I havn't believed in it since about the age of 8.

The Free Man

doesn't being agnostic mean believing that humans will never be intellegent enough to discover if there is a god or not, like as if its just something we just aren't ment to know?

Tar.Aldarion

Agnosticism is a religious orientation of doubt; a denial of ultimate knowledge of the existence of God; "agnosticism holds that you can neither prove nor disprove God's existence"
Anyway it's just the belief that it cannot be said if a God exists or not because there is no proof either way.

Dades

The Free Man wrote:

doesn't being agnostic mean believing that humans will never be intellegent enough to discover if there is a god or not, like as if its just something we just aren't ment to know?

Doesn't necessarily mean we aren't intelligent enough. If the evidence isn't available to us it doesn't matter how intelligent we are.

Maybe we were created and now our creator resides 1,000,000 light years away and we're precluded by the speed of light from ever coming into contact. Maybe... anything. That's what not knowing is all about.

stevenmu

The Free Man wrote:

doesn't being agnostic mean believing that humans will never be intellegent enough to discover if there is a god or not, like as if its just something we just aren't ment to know?

Even though the definition generally includes it, I don't think agnostics nessecarily believe we can never prove the existence of God (or lack thereof). Altough no matter what evidence or how detailed an understanding of life and universe we come up with, people will always be able to claim there's some devine force behind it all

The Free Man

i see, thanks for clearing it up. i can see how only 1000 or so people are regestered as agnostic, i reckon a majority would have beliefs along the lines of agnosticism, but would not know its name, or would have other factors in their beliefs....

stormkeeper

I'd have prolly put down Agnostic myself, though I seem to lean towards Paganism...

Anto and Moe

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

agnosticism holds that you can neither prove nor disprove God's existence

I'm a devout agnostic, I think any other religoin is silly, and have and will argue it to death!

Dades

Anto and Moe wrote:

I'm a devout agnostic

That's cool

I think any other religoin is silly

That's not.
(Does nobody any favours - especially you).

have and will argue it to death!

That's also cool.
Great to see young people taking an interest.

Tar.Aldarion

Hey it's ok to think everybody but you is wrong young lad,tis the way of the world
Now argue...(and support the forum request in system--->forum) :P

Anto and Moe

Well a great part of being an agnostic for me is the principal that we cannot know anything for certain, and as such to claim to be certain enough of christianity (or whatever religion) to put faith in it and live your life by it is foolish, and also inhibits your ability to reach any higher truth... And as for religious wars... oh don't even get me started!

stevenmu

Anto and Moe wrote:

Well a great part of being an agnostic for me is the principal that we cannot know anything for certain, and as such to claim to be certain enough of christianity (or whatever religion) to put faith in it and live your life by it is foolish, and also inhibits your ability to reach any higher truth... And as for religious wars... oh don't even get me started!

Tbh it sounds to me like your faith in this principal is similar to the faith of theists in their God. Your faith also has just as little proof to back it up as theirs might. I strongly agree with you that absolute certainty in a theistic belief inhibits your ability to reach any higher truth, but similarly absolute certainty in non-theistic and/or agnostic beliefs can have the exact same effect.

MrJoeSoap

stevenmu wrote:

Your faith also has just as little proof to back it up as theirs might.

Have to disagree there, how can "not believing in something you haven't seen" be similar to "believing in something you haven't seen"?

(sorry if I misunderstood)

stevenmu

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Have to disagree there, how can "not believing in something you haven't seen" be similar to "believing in something you haven't seen"?

(sorry if I misunderstood)

I was referring more to his belief in the 'principal that we cannot know anything for certain' and the implication that therefore agnosticism is the only sensible choice. Believing in such a principle so strongly automatically rules out any information which could lead to proof in the existence or non-existence of God/Spirit/Other, either on a universal or a personal level. By denying the possibility of definitive information relating to a God/Spirit/Other, you deny the chance of understanding any potential God/Spirit/Other.

edit: Personally I believe that, assuming the existence of a God/Spirit/Other, we can come to understand it's nature. While for the foreseeable future this will merely be on a personal level, I see no reason why our scientific understanding of the universe could not evolve to include a good scientific knowledge of God/Spirit/Other.

MrJoeSoap

stevenmu wrote:

I was referring more to his belief in the 'principal that we cannot know anything for certain' and the implication that therefore agnosticism is the only sensible choice. Believing in such a principle so strongly automatically rules out any information which could lead to proof in the existence or non-existence of God/Spirit/Other, either on a global or a personal level. By denying the possibility of definitive information relating to a God/Spirit/Other, you deny the chance of understanding any potential God/Spirit/Other.

Agreed.

As far as I can see it, there are two main types of agnostic:

- Someone who believes we will never know (while alive at least) if there is a God.
- Someone who is just questioning of the existence of a God.

I'm somewhere in between (which kinda ruins my argument I guess...).

Dades

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Agreed.

As far as I can see it, there are two main types of agnostic:

- Someone who believes we will never know (while alive at least) if there is a God.
- Someone who is just questioning of the existence of a God.

Re your first catagory there, I'd divide it further into two

- close-minded, and
- open-minded

I think what stevenmu is referring to is the close-minded attitude that can be taken with all beliefs/disbeliefs which will preclude you from ever gaining a different "truth" or indeed even a different perspective.

It is on course possible to maintaining strong beliefs and be open minded about new information. Conviction doesn't always equate to impassiveness.