The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 1)

Zombrex

Jakkass wrote:

Yes I am genuinely puzzled, regarding this. (read the contents of the link below and that will explain to you exactly why)
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=52980261&postcount=20

I have read that. I wasn't sure what exactly you how you would like me to respond. It is all pretty basic moral teachings. I certainly agree with all of it, but am I supposed to be impressed by it?

It also highlights the wide ranging hypocracy of the Old Testament, which is probably due to the fact that it is actually a large number of different books written at different times.

For example "Do not ill-treat foreigners who are living in your land."

That is a nice idea, I would give it the two thumbs up. But then the principle behind it doesn't seem to extend very far, because most of the time the Israelites where actually genociding their foreign neighbours, under God's command.

It is clear therefore that there isn't an underlying principle behind these moral guidelines. Be nice to your neighbour if God commands you. Kill your neighbour and his wife and his children, if God commands you.

Jakkass wrote:

You also fail to understand that Christians are followers of the last and great revelation of Jesus Christ. This revelation was the better than all previous revelations of YHWH.

But Jakkass you started doing what every other Christian here did when confronted by the atrocities in the Old Testament, you started attempting to justify them.

Your Christian love and compassion went out the window.

Suddenly it was right that this child died and it would have been right if God had decided to kill the lot of them (be thankful he didn't). What is the point of all these good moral teachings if there is no principle behind them. It becomes just words that don't mean anything.

Be nice to your neighbour because God says so except when God wants you to chop off his head and take all his stuff.

Killing children is absolutely wrong except when God wants to do it, or wants you to do it.

There is no understanding of why it is wrong to kill a child, which is that the child doesn't want to suffer and doesn't want to die. It doesn't matter who in the end kills the child, the child still suffers and the child still dies.

From my point of view, as someone who doesn't think any of these stories actually happened, I am far more concerned by the way Christians (and Jews and Muslims) can quickly turn to justifying the most ridiculous things because they are done in the name of their religion.

And to me it is frightening beyond belief to see how people can so quickly turn to this, how good people can be persuaded to justify horrific acts so easily.

Jakkass wrote:

Yes I am genuinely puzzled to how people cannot use the Bible as a moral guidebook, completely and utterly.

Ok, take for example the idea of foreigners.

Your passage says if a foreigner is in your land you should be nice to him. Fair enough, sounds like a good rule of thumb.

But God also teaches that it is ok to murder your foreign neighbour in battle, kill his wife and children, and take his money.

So if the first one is a good law to live by, is the second one not also a good law to live by?

Jakkass wrote:

Also, Wicknight, should you be really horrified, if you don't even believe that it took place?

Well the events are horrific, but as I said, the thing that horrifies me personally is not the question of if this happened or not (I believe and hope it didn't), it is the fact that people can hear or read of these things happening, genuinely believe that they did happen, and say to themselves "Yup, thats grand. I've no problem with that" or attempt to seek out ways to logically justify them to themselves.

JimiTime

JimiTime wrote:

Few points.

1. All were guilty. There was no 'innocents'. All inheritted the sin of Adam, and all were sentanced to death already, thanks to Adams betrayal.

Which emphasises Wicknight's point that god likes punishing people for what other people did, regardless of what the punishees had or had not done.
It's easy to say "we are all guilty" but in honesty, I prefer our current law system which does not send a whole family to jail as well as or in lieu of the guilty person.
And Adam's betrayal was orchestrated by god in the first place anyway, so it's not like anyone ever got a choice in the matter.

2. If you do not find it sinful or immoral to reject God, then you will never see the point. The most important Commandment was to Love God with your whole heart and whole mind. Anyone that rejected God was cut off from him. All deserved death, but Gods undeserved kindness meant that he did not cut us off but gave us the way of salvation. His people Israel, were blessed and their enemies were delivered up. Being consistent however, if Israel exhibited this same rejection they too were punished and delivered up unto their enemies.

What kindness? He created us with this particular "flaw" then punishes us for having it, and torments anyone he feels like at his whim. Even Job got tormented because god felt like it, despite being very faithful and worshiping. In fact, his family got killed too.
God creates a whole universe, heaven and hell, and is insecure enough still to care who worships him or not.
Once again, psychiatrist. =/

3. The issue is that you believe you are entitled to life. You are not. Nobody is.

Yet more of this self-loathing complex. So you're happy with being an omnipotent being's plaything to be tormented at will with no guarantee that being good and obedient (Job) will even get you anywhere. Good for you.
I, however, don't hate myself.

It is through the undeserved kindness of God that we have been given salvation. You can be part of his people, or be one of the nations who reject him. He owes you nothing, you owe him everything. If you embrace him, he will bless you with everlasting life where he promises, 'exquisite delight'. Reject him and your judgement will be decisive, dead forever. That is both Just and Loving, so has he been since the beginning of time.

If he owes us nothing, he should stop killing everyone for fun (Wicknight's pharaoh-heart quote). I'm happy to be left alone, and I don't want to worship a megalomaniac, thanks.
I don't owe him everything. Even if he did exist and created me, then a little gratitude might be in order (maybe) similar to my parents. But if those parents abuse me, then no, I don't owe them anything. Same goes for your god.
I wouldn't mind just being dead forever, I'd welcome non-existence rather than being cooped up with him where he's still free to torment anyone. But if hell really is actual eternal torture, then no, it's not remotely just or loving.

philologos

bluewolf wrote:

Well, in fairness, I could say that too. Was there any kind of follow up?

Yes...

1 Kings 17:16 wrote:

As the Lord promised through Elijah, the bowl did not run out of flour nor did the jar run out of oil.

As for the "pathetic" argument. You already see theists as pathetic, you have already made up your own judgement as to what you think of God.

bluewolf wrote:

Oh wow! He was so lucky to escape disaster! How on earth is that benevolent!! Maybe there shouldn't have been disaster in the first place?

Maybe you should read up on what King Ahab of Israel did first, by assassinating Naboth so that he could take possession of his vineyard. As I say, it is like a Jewish form of Karma. You point out the punishments that God does, without knowing what happened beforehand.

bluewolf wrote:

If I was starving in the desert, I'm sure a "small white seed" would taste like that to me too, it doesn't mean god made it taste that way.

Facts are God fed them when they could have died.

bluewolf wrote:

And given the amount of rape and killing your god also does, the best we're going to be convinced of is that the god sounds schizophrenic, or paranoid and insecure and a megalomaniac.

God, and rape? that is a very interesting argument. I'd like an example (not Wicknight's poorly given one either). You will never understand God's relationship with us, as you aren't a Christian. God loves us, and he expects the same in return. It would be like God having a one sided relationship with you otherwise (which is unfortunately for Him (God Father, Son and Holy Spirit) what is occuring between Him and you who reject Him).

Jakkass

Jakkass wrote:

As for the "pathetic" argument. You already see theists as pathetic, you have already made up your own judgement as to what you think of God.

Don't you dare, jakkass. I've had perfectly friendly conversations with you on irc, I've been civil and polite and made no personal insults to you or any theists here. I have never once called a theist pathetic, not here not in private not even on gaiaonline. When I hear a lot of atheists dismissing all theists as stupid, I defend the theists. Because I know quite a few very intelligent ones, as I said to you the other day, in fact.
I am trying to figure out what on earth you all see as so benevolent in this god and explaining my own opinion. I absolutely do not appreciate this kind of attitude. I appreciate you may be offended by my suggesting my opinions of how your god is acting, but if you want me to tone anything down then say so and stop fobbing me off.

Maybe you should read up on what King Ahab of Israel did first, by assassinating Naboth so that he could take possession of his vineyard. As I say, it is like a Jewish form of Karma. You point out the punishments that God does, without knowing what happened beforehand.

Please don't keep bringing karma into this, I appreciate you're trying to make an analogy into my own religion but it's not entirely correct and I don't need it, but thanks.
Yes, I'm pointing out the punishments. Because condemning an entire family, children and all, is not a justifiable thing to do. Even if the parents had committed some horrible acts. And while assassinating someone is pretty bad, to condemn an entire family is a complete overreaction.

Facts are God fed them when they could have died.

Didn't god send them into the desert in the first place?

God, and rape? that is a very interesting argument. I'd like an example (not Wicknight's poorly given one either). You will never understand God's relationship with us, as you aren't a Christian. God loves us, and he expects the same in return. It would be like God having a one sided relationship with you otherwise (which is unfortunately for Him (God Father, Son and Holy Spirit) what is occuring between Him and you who reject Him).

So I'll never understand and that's just too bad considering in your view it means I'm going to end up in hell? Will you please stop this "you just won't understand" thing? If it's supposed to apply to everyone as you all keep insisting, then a lofty dismissive attitude (which I've seen from you constantly) isn't going to help. Fair enough if you don't want to argue this, but then.. just don't argue it.

Zombrex

JimiTime wrote:

The issue is that you believe you are entitled to life. You are not. Nobody is.

Well that kinda sums this nonsense up really :rolleyes:

philologos

Wicknight wrote:

Well that kinda sums this nonsense up really :rolleyes:

Another constructive comment from the atheist camp. Go find another belief if you aren't satisfied with Judaism, Christianity and most likely Islam (and possibly the Bah'ai faith). Unless you think it's harmful to believe in something (like Dawkins).

JimiTime

bluewolf wrote:

Which emphasises Wicknight's point that god likes punishing people for what other people did, regardless of what the punishees had or had not done.

God takes no pleasure in the death of a person. In fact he he tells us that ' I take no delight in the death of someone' 'so cause a turning back and keep living you people'. He told us how to live and gain life. You made it clear at the bottom of your post you don't want it. I do, for i love God. And in his mercy, you will not suffer for eternity, but will be dead forever in the second death of which there is no resurrection.

It's easy to say "we are all guilty" but in honesty, I prefer our current law system which does not send a whole family to jail as well as or in lieu of the guilty person.
And Adam's betrayal was orchestrated by god in the first place anyway, so it's not like anyone ever got a choice in the matter.

Yeh, what a jip. God creates them, gives them dominion over his earth and they go do the one thing he said not to. 'It was this woman you gave me'. why did he put the tree there, why did he not just stop Adam before he did it etc etc.:rolleyes: Remember where you are bluewolf and have some respect! Adam made his choice!

What kindness? He created us with this particular "flaw" then punishes us for having it, and torments anyone he feels like at his whim. Even Job got tormented because god felt like it, despite being very faithful and worshiping. In fact, his family got killed too.
God creates a whole universe, heaven and hell, and is insecure enough still to care who worships him or not.
Once again, psychiatrist. =/

Again you forget your place. Read the charter. For your comments are not written with honourable intentions.

Yet more of this self-loathing complex. So you're happy with being an omnipotent being's plaything to be tormented at will with no guarantee that being good and obedient (Job) will even get you anywhere. Good for you.
I, however, don't hate myself.

Straw man alert! It doesn't take self loathing or indeed hate. but you present it that way in your ignorant folly.

JimiTime

JimiTime wrote:

God takes no pleasure in the death of a person. In fact he he tells us that ' I take no delight in the death of someone' 'so cause a turning back and keep living you people'. He told us how to live and gain life. You made it clear at the bottom of your post you don't want it. I do, for i love God. And in his mercy, you will not suffer for eternity, but will be dead forever in the second death of which there is no resurrection.

But if god doesn't take any pleasure in it why does god keep doing it in such apparent over-reactions? Was Wicknights quote not accurate, where it said god hardened pharaoh's heart so that god could kill a whole load of people in egypt? What about killing Job's family? What about telling Moses that every single person and child had to be killed and sending back soldiers to finish the job properly when they didn't even want to?
I mean, it seems like god says one thing and does another. How can you accept this inconsistency?

Yeh, what a jip. God creates them, gives them dominion over his earth and they go do the one thing he said not to. 'It was this woman you gave me'. why did he put the tree there, why did he not just stop Adam before he did it etc etc.:rolleyes: Remember where you are bluewolf and have some respect! Adam made his choice!

But like, think of it this way. Their only experience is being told what to do by some other beings. How would they know that they weren't supposed to do what they were told? And why did god put the tree there in the first place?
If god didn't want them to have it why put it within reach when they didn't know anything anyway? And why was knowledge such a bad thing in the first place? It was the tree of knowledge, wasn't it?
And why, WHY should every other person in the world be condemned for it when they weren't there at all? Why does following the bible make such a difference if you're all doomed anyway?

Again you forget your place. Read the charter. For your comments are not written with honourable intentions.

Alright I apologise for the psychiatrist comment, but I still feel that the rest of that quote has a point.

Straw man alert! It doesn't take self loathing or indeed hate. but you present it that way in your ignorant folly.

It's an observation I've made from wolfsbane and brianc and now you. You all genuinely seem to think you're worthless, horrible people, and it does genuniely worry me which is why I bring it up. I apologise for my flippancy, but I do feel that that's how your god is portrayed in the OT.
And if I'm so ignorant why won't you people explain it properly instead of just calling me ignorant or dismissing me.

I'll ask again - how is it in any way beneficial to you to think you're worthless and deserving of torment or death?
I mean, how is it not actually harmful. I just don't understand.

FrCrilly

bluewolf wrote:

That's the opposite of what I said.
We aren't lucky, luck has nothing to do with it. I said we don't know that we wouldn't exist given any other type of universe. Goodness knows an anti-matter based universe could have people happily wandering around in it. I said you can't call it luck because you don't have anything else to compare it to, i.e. life not occurring. Chance doesn't come into it. It happened, therefore "what might have been" does not come into it.

Bluewolf. Apologies for any misunderstandings.

Earlier on in this thread, I stated:

Either God said “let that universe have the laws of physics that will create intelligent life in my image” or there is such a thing as infinite parralel universes (eg another universe’s Big Bang could have produced nitrogen and nothing happened.)

When I thought about this later, I realised that I should have stated a third simpler option, ie that the Big Bang produced hydrogen which burned and produced all elements which enable life as we know it. One universe, One set of laws of physics and life exists. No God, no luck involved and no paralell universes. It just happened.

Does this tally (exactly) with what you’ve just stated?

(Please note, I hope we’re not getting hot headed with each other. I’m only participating in this thread to learn and share what I’ve already learned)

Zombrex

Jakkass wrote:

Another constructive comment from the atheist camp.

How exactly is one supposed to be constructive around the idea that we are all corrupt and none of us deserve to live?

If one doesn't have a basic respect for the rights of others to exist then what hope is there in discussing morality with them? The belief that no one is deserving of life can be pretty much used to justify anything.

philologos

He gave us life and this Earth that we live on, I personally would consider that a privilege rather than anything else.

Wicknight wrote:

If one doesn't have a basic respect for the rights of others to exist then what hope is there in discussing morality with them?

You don't have the basic respect for our religion if you say it is nonsense. I would never say that to any other theist (even if I didn't believe in their faith)

Jakkass

Jakkass wrote:

He gave us life and this Earth that we live on, I personally would consider that a privilege rather than anything else.

Do your parents have the right to do with you whatsoever they want just because they gave you life?

Zombrex

Jakkass wrote:

He gave us life and this Earth that we live on, I personally would consider that a privilege rather than anything else.

Do you believe that you have a right to exist because you do exist?

philologos

bluewolf wrote:

Do your parents have the right to do with you whatsoever they want just because they gave you life?

What he want's is for people to be judged for their sins, and for them to be punished if they haven't repented for them.

Wicknight wrote:

Do you believe that you have a right to exist because you do exist?

Well if I exist, I was quite clearly given the right to exist by God.

Zombrex

Jakkass wrote:

Well if I exist, I was quite clearly given the right to exist by God.

You aren't given a right. If you are given something it is a privilege and the person who gave it to you can take it back or decide not to give it to you in thef first place. You either have a right or you don't.

Do you have the right to exist?

Jakkass

Jakkass wrote:

What he want's is for people to be judged for their sins, and for them to be punished if they haven't repented for them.

Do your parents punish you by hurting your siblings/relatives?

Talliesin

JimiTime wrote:

Yeh, what a jip. God creates them, gives them dominion over his earth and they go do the one thing he said not to. 'It was this woman you gave me'. why did he put the tree there, why did he not just stop Adam before he did it etc etc.:rolleyes:

Makes you think really. Christian theologians have spent so long on the challenge of theodicy, when all they really needed was a rolling-eyes smiley.

JimiTime wrote:

Again you forget your place.

"Her place" indeed?

I think you are forgetting yours.

You are both guests of a system that is affording you a place for discussion. Speaking as someone who disagrees with both of you, I think she's running rings around you here. Telling anyone that they have a "place" to keep to isn't making your level of debate sound any better.

Bluewolf, you are in more of a guest position here as a non-Christian. Please bear that in mind and tone down the technique of putting words or attitudes in someone else's god's mouth. You can make your point about theodicy without stating that God likes punishing, and your point is still the same. You know perfectly well that Christianity does not posit a god that enjoys punishing, so it does nothing to suggest so but to make you appear rude.

JimiTime. Don't tell anyone what their "place" is again, or I shall drastically alter what your place is around here.

philologos

Wicknight wrote:

You aren't given a right. If you are given something it is a privilege and the person who gave it to you can take it back or decide not to give it to you in thef first place. You either have a right or you don't.

Do you have the right to exist?

It's a privilege to live yes. He could take it back if he found reason to.

Sorry, instead of "likes" I meant "has an apparent tendency to".

It's a privilege to live yes.

He said right, not privilege.

BrianCalgary

bluewolf wrote:

Do your parents have the right to do with you whatsoever they want just because they gave you life?

My parents did not give me life, God did, as without God there can be no life.

My parents where the means whereby my life began.

My parents did have a responsibility to do with me as God would have have them do.

philologos

Actually, Wicknight why don't you believe in anything yourself? Seeing as the questions are really flying in one direction at the moment.

BrianCalgary

BrianCalgary wrote:

My parents did not give me life, God did, as without God there can be no life.

My parents where the means whereby my life began.

My parents did have a responsibility to do with me as God would have have them do.

Ok, without god there might be no life, but your parents gave you your life, it was their choice wasn't it?
My overall point is that being in a position of power doesn't mean you are justified in doing whatever you want with that power AND (an important and) calling it morally good.

Oh to your third line, serious question, what if god told your parents to kill you soon after birth? This isn't out of nowhere - there's that thing of Isaac(it was him or Abraham, wasn't it?) and well, all the other quotes floating around the last few pages.

jakk wrote:

Actually, Wicknight why don't you believe in anything yourself? Seeing as the questions are really flying in one direction at the moment.

Why don't you answer his properly first? if you don't want to discuss the bible why are you still posting? I'm not telling you to stop, you just don't seem that interested in it. to me. imho.

philologos

bluewolf, it's perfectly clear that I won't convince you of anything unless you search for God (properly and with an open mind yourself).

Jakkass

Jakkass wrote:

bluewolf, it's perfectly clear that I won't convince you of anything unless you search for God (properly and with an open mind yourself).

jakk, it's perfectly clear you don't want to convince me of anything and would prefer to tell me I'm narrowminded despite my constantly telling you otherwise and asking sincere questions. Disagreeing with you does not make me narrowminded.
as rude as I may have been earlier, this is just as rude.

JimiTime

bluewolf wrote:

But if god doesn't take any pleasure in it why does god keep doing it in such apparent over-reactions? Was Wicknights quote not accurate, where it said god hardened pharaoh's heart so that god could kill a whole load of people in egypt? What about killing Job's family? What about telling Moses that every single person and child had to be killed and sending back soldiers to finish the job properly when they didn't even want to?
I mean, it seems like god says one thing and does another. How can you accept this inconsistency?

Whats inconsistent? Egypt were worshippers of false Gods. God chose to make them a sign of his power for his people Israel. As for Job, Satan questioned humanities motives towards worship and faithfulness. This was in turn a challenge to Gods sovreignty. Satan then went about destroying Job in the hope he would curse God. He remained faithful and was indeed blessed by God for his faithfulness. All 20 of his children will be with him in the promised ressurection also. His trials were great, but his blessings are indeed much greater. God see's the big picture.

But like, think of it this way. Their only experience is being told what to do by some other beings. How would they know that they weren't supposed to do what they were told?

They were told not to eat of the tree. Eve expressed that she knew she shouldn't but did it anyway. So she was certainly aware of disobedience to instruction.

And why did god put the tree there in the first place?

Thats a discussion in itself. might start a thread on it.

It's an observation I've made from wolfsbane and brianc and now you. You all genuinely seem to think you're worthless, horrible people, and it does genuniely worry me which is why I bring it up. I apologise for my flippancy, but I do feel that that's how your god is portrayed in the OT.
And if I'm so ignorant why won't you people explain it properly instead of just calling me ignorant or dismissing me.

this is a contradiction in terms. You are asking not to be dimissed as being ignorant, yet you 'observe' me, wolfsbane and brianc to be self loathing folk. I can certainly speak for myself, and I would assume wolfsbane and brianc. While I would know I fall short of righteousness, I certainly do not see myself as worthless (to do so would be an absolute insult to God, who sent his Son to die for 'Us', certainly not worthless.) As for horrible people. Absolutely not. I am not a horrible person. I fall short of being righteous and good relative to what I should be, but I'm far from horrible. You are twisting things I feel.

I'll ask again - how is it in any way beneficial to you to think you're worthless and deserving of torment or death?
I mean, how is it not actually harmful. I just don't understand.

Firstly, I don't believe I'm worthless as mentioned above. As for deserving of death. Its not as intense as you make it believe it or not. Its more we didn't have a right to life i.e. deserve it. God could have just let the world get on with itself without him, but he gave us out of his Love for us a means for salvation. So those who wish to partake of this wonderful promise can. those who don't, can live as if God doesn't exist. All round its absolute mercy.

philologos

As for Christians thinking they are worthless that is clearly not true. We have found God, and God is delighted to have found us. We think that there is a lot of value on us as God Himself, has crafted us and the world around us. He has made us able in so many different things and He continues to watch over us and care for us as we have accepted Him. We couldn't possibly consider ourselves worthless, we are servants of the most powerful being in existence!

JimiTime

Talliesin wrote:

JimiTime. Don't tell anyone what their "place" is again, or I shall drastically alter what your place is around here.

What an insulting way to talk! It was a disrepectful tone that was used and I reminded bluewolf where he was. I.E. in a Christianity forum. he later ackknowledged his 'rudeness' to Jackass. So get off your high horse mod man. Ban me if you want. Personally i think you are bang out of order! and an apology wouldn't go a miss. Whats this place coming to!!

Scofflaw

Jakkass wrote:

bluewolf, it's perfectly clear that I won't convince you of anything unless you search for God (properly and with an open mind yourself).

It is entirely clear that what you mean here is "accept God as I have done". Many of us would not actually consider that open-minded.


regards,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw

JimiTime wrote:

What an insulting way to talk! It was a disrepectful tone that was used and I reminded bluewolf where he was. I.E. in a Christianity forum. he later ackknowledged his 'rudeness' to Jackass. So get off your high horse mod man. Ban me if you want. Personally i think you are bang out of order! and an apology wouldn't go a miss. Whats this place coming to!!

Certainly it used to be more civilised.

Scofflaw

JimiTime

Scofflaw wrote:

Certainly it used to be more civilised.

Scofflaw

have I rocked the boat then?