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The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 1)
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Sapien said:
Well, that will do for me.My point is, that which you present is coherent with what the Bible says concerning God - which is quite different.
But I'm confused as to the practical difference between me presenting an accurate account of what the Bible says about God, and a picture that is coherent with it.0 -
You are inventing a magical character to elaborate the god of the bible. You may attribute anything to it, and so long as it doesn't contradict your text, you are fine. To say that this is accuracy is to miss a semantic note.wolfsbane wrote:Well, that will do for me.
But I'm confused as to the practical difference between me presenting an accurate account of what the Bible says about God, and a picture that is coherent with it.0 -
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pH
In fact, there must be a lovely analogy to the "argument from design" in all of this. If you find a sandwich on your table when you return home, would you immediately assume that God made it?
The Creationist would say that the sandwich showed unequivocal evidence of Intelligent Design – and so it was made by an intelligent agent – probably another Human.
God COULD have made it but as He has told us that He has ceased his Creation activity and as the scale of the intelligence and creative power required to make a sandwich is so small, it has a probability approaching 1.0 that a Human agent made the sandwich.
In the case of the Universe, God told us that He created it – and scale of the intelligence and creative power required is so enormous, it has a probability approaching 1.0 that an omnipotent and omniscient agent (AKA God) made the Universe!!!:D
Scofflaw
Every scientific theory can still be tenable in a created universe - even evolution, even abiogenesis.
Yes indeed they can – and ID has been scientifically proven – while ‘big picture’ Evolution and Abiogenesis have been disproven!!!!!
bonkey
Once you accept that the universe looks like what the scientific model says, then the only reason you;re left with to believe otherwise is because its written in the bible.
…….but the Universe LOOKS LIKE it was Created – and the only reason to believe otherwise is because you wish to believe in a materialistic origin – in spite of all of the evidence being to the contrary.:eek:
FrCrilly
Creationists say that all fossils of early life are animals who didn’t get on the ark. If that’s true, then why are they all arranged in a time line of evolutionary different layers showing a progression in evolution. Surely if they drowned in the flood they would be randomly scattered around.
One would expect the Flood Process to bury creatures in order of their ‘position’ in the ‘ecological column’ i.e. bottom dwelling creatures and flocculated uni-cells first and active top dwellers last (if at all). Equally, land dwellers would be expected to be buried with slow moving creatures first and more active and intelligent creatures last.
Palaeontology shows the sequence in which creatures were killed and buried during Noah’s Flood – seafloor dwelling creatures and flocculated plankton first – all the way up to large land animals and birds, that obviously would be last to ‘succumb to the waves’. The extraction of red blood cells and haemoglobin from (unfossilized) dinosaur bone and the extraction of DNA fragments from insects trapped in amber indicates that these creatures were alive very recently indeed. The observed rates of biological degeneration under such conditions would give maximal ages of a few thousand years for these bones / insects.
The list of species in the so-called Geological Column represents the order of their catastrophic burial in Noah’s Flood.
Strata, which hold the same collection of fossils, indicate that these creatures were buried during the same stage of the Flood Event for a number of reasons including their physical location in the Biosphere or the place where they gathered together before being drowned. In other cases their location relates to water sorting characteristics such as their size, shape or hydrodynamic characteristics.
FrCrilly
Why are there fossils of marine life up high mountains hundreds of miles in from sea, when most of these creatures can only move a few feet a day under water. They could not have made the journey in the 40 days of the great flood. (Leonardo Da Vinci figured this one out hundreds of years ago).
The Flood covered the whole Earth – and the waters receded as huge upthrusts and downthrusts created the mountains and oceans of today.
The vertical upthrust of the mountains in the immediate aftermath of the Flood is why you find sea fossils up there today and NOT because of significant lateral movement ‘away’ from our present seas - so the presence of seashells on mountains involved tectonic movements of a few hundred metres upwards - and not hundreds of kilometres sidewards!!!!
FrCrilly
Why would God pick the third rock from a star in no significant position in it’s galaxy or in the universe to put his special creation.
OK, FrCrilly, I’m hazarding a guess here – but I think it was because a (very persuasive) woman said to Him “Go on, go on, go on ……….you will, you will, you will……..GO ON….YOU WILL!!!!!
Seriously though, God probably was making the point that compared to Him our Universe and ourselves are quite insignificant (as you have pointed out) – but despite our physical insignificance, God loves each of us so much that He wants to have a one-to-one personal relationship with each of us – and each one of us has the free will to accept or reject this relationship.:cool:
FrCrilly
So in summary,
Either God exists and the Creation happened
Or
He doesn’t exist and the whole thing is a laissez-faire scientific process.
A very astute and good summary.
Dave McG
Evolution isn't disputed in science.
A bit like Geo-centrism wasn’t dispute much in 'Medieval Science' either – and for many of the same reasons!!!!:D
Robin
In form, creationism is quite similar to holocaust-denial, 9/11 conspiracists, fans of homeopathy etc etc
All fine and dandy EXCEPT for the FACT that the ‘Fathers Of Modern Science’ including Newton, Faraday, Maxwell, Kelvin, Boyle, Dalton, Linnaeus, Mendel, Pasteur, Copernicus, Galileo, Kepler and Pascal who were all Bible-believing scientists – and NONE of them were “holocaust-deniers, 9/11 conspiracists, fans of homeopathy etc etc” (or their 19th Century equivalents)!!!!!:D
ISAW
One could then say god is creating every day since new sould are coming into existance with noew people. If it isn't like that then where were all the souls hanging around before all the people were born? Does God have them all in a "holding area"?
…….but God SAID that on the Seventh Day He rested from Creation - and that rest continues.
God obviously gave Humans the generative powers to produce both the bodies AND the souls of their children.
Souls are no more in some “holding area” than bodies are!!!!:D
ISAW
If God created the laws of physics then that was enough for planet and stellar formation.
God COULD indeed produce some special law of physics in order to produce the Universe – but God didn’t say that He used this method to produce the Universe – He said that He created it by ONE fiat act of His Divine Will.
ISAW
If God enabled the universe which is interpreted with quantum physics then luck and probability has a lot to do with it.
Wasn’t it Einstein who said that he DIDN’T believe that God played dice with the Universe?
………and I agree wholeheartedly with him on this one!!!:D
FrCrilly
The development of intelligent life is a low probability event. But this is counteracted by the fact that there are so many planets in the universe, so a number of planets will be lucky enough to develop intelligent life.
Indeed the (spontaneous) development of life (whether intelligent or otherwise) is such a low probability event as to be a statistical IMPOSSIBILITY!!!!!
Please bear in mind that the undirected production of the Amino Acid Sequence for a simple 100 chain protein would defeat every electron in the known Universe producing a billion sequences every second for a billion billion years.
ISAW
Newton was an aryan heretic
………and he was also a first rate Creation Scientist.
It is a mistake to believe that all Creation Scientists are orthodox Bible-believing Christians - some Creation Scientists today are Jews, Moslems and Agnostics as well as Christians.
Wicknight
You do realise that God kills more people in the Bible than anyone else.
…..yes indeed ……. in His sovereign will God allows EVERYONE to physically die.
It is quite a sobering experience to walk into one of the Normandy military cemeteries, as I did last week – and to find that the vast majority of the headstones commemorate men who were younger than myself when they died.
Anyway, getting back to the point at issue about God and His relationship with Humanity.
The choice everyone must make is between God’s Justice or His Grace!!!!
God has confirmed this eternal Human dilemma in Det 30:19b “I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.”
Wicknight
Ex 11:4-5
“And Moses said, Thus saith the LORD, About midnight will I go out into the midst of Egypt:
And all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sitteth upon his throne, even unto the firstborn of the maidservant that is behind the mill; and all the firstborn of beasts.”………
…………… Well the events are horrific, but as I said, the thing that horrifies me personally is not the question of if this happened or not (I believe and hope it didn't), it is the fact that people can hear or read of these things happening, genuinely believe that they did happen, and say to themselves "Yup, thats grand. I've no problem with that" or attempt to seek out ways to logically justify them to themselves.
Yes indeed, the wages of sin is death – and it is horrific.
……and the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord – and it is amazing.:D
The good news is that we are currently in the Church era of God’s grace and God is therefore NOT directly visiting death upon anybody……..
…………….and you have nothing to fear from Born Again Christians either - as they are commanded to turn the other cheek and to love you - in a purely platonic sense, I hasten to add!!!!
Son Goku
can anybody tell me what is scientifically wrong with evolution?
Just about everything!!!!:eek: 0 -
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Jakkass
Why then if creation is so prevalent in society, why can't it be a plausible answer to how the world was created? If so many things have been created, why can't the Earth be too?
Son Goku
There's nothing that makes it implausible, just that there's nothing which explicitly supports it yet.
Nothing, that is, apart from Information Theory, The Laws of Thermodynamics, The Law of Biogenesis, The Law of Big numbers, Probability Theory, the evidence of Intelligent Design and the vast amounts of Complex Specified Information observed in living organisms as well as Common Sense………………
…………..to name but a few!!!!!:D
Scofflaw
What could possibly be more natural than to assume that the loaf of bread was born from another loaf of bread, or hatched from an egg?
Why not assume it fell from the sky? After all, rain, snow, sleet, dust, meteorites, frogs (occasionally) fall from the sky - why not that loaf?
Why not assume it grew? Like a plant - I mean, you see them every day, surely it occurred to you that it just grew there? It's not green, so it's probably a type of mushroom - you know how they suddenly burst up after rain...
Why not assume it's always been there? From our point of view, the hills have always been there, and the animals, and the plants - it seems odd you should suddenly assume that your loaf of bread is something new?
Why not assume it came up out of the sea (if it's anywhere near it, that is)? After all, the sea washes up all kinds of strange things whose origin is a mystery to us - why not a loaf of bread?
The sea washes up all kinds of strange things – why could it not create a loaf of bread or even a Human Being????
Why not indeed????
So, this is WHY evolutionists can believe that Human Beings were spontaneously generated!!!!
I rest my case!!!!!:)
Son Goku
Big Bang Theory - 13.7 billion years ago the universe was extremely hot and dense. There were still only three forces, but many more types of particles than there are today.
‘Son Goku Speak’ for “we don’t know!!!!”
Son Goku
What currently isn't known is:
What is the origin of this material*?
*Although material isn't really the right word as I'll show in my post to wolfsbane.
Was there an earlier point when there was only two forces?
What was the exact dynamics of the expansion?
‘Son Goku Speak’ for “we don’t know at all!!!!”
Son Goku
Although the Hubble space telescope can tell us that the expansion looks like it happened, it doesn't give us enough information to determine the specifics of the expansion.
‘Son Goku Speak’ for “we don’t know at all, at all!!!!”
Wicknight
At this spot, which was possibly a singularity, the laws of nature don't work and pretty much everything is energy. But something caused a tremendous release of this energy (call that God if you though there is no actually reason do) and this spot expanded out and basic particles formed.
‘Wicknight Speak’ for “we don’t know at all, at all, at alll!!!!”:D
Wicknight
The reason people are pretty sure this happened (even if the exact details are still being worked on) is because the mathematical models where the big bang first were developed predicted that we would find certain things in the universe, which later on we did find, such as the microwave radiation.
The Background Radiation of the Big Bang has ‘gone up in smoke’ (amongst Evolutionists, as well as Creationists) and here is a quote from a recent edition of Science Daily on the matter:-
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/09/060905104549.htm
University of Alabama at Huntsville scientists are scratching their heads at a finding that may see the big bang “blown away” in the minds of scientists. Big bang advocates believe the cosmic explosion is responsible for the cosmic microwave background (CMB) radiation we observe. However, scientists have long predicted that galaxy clusters in the universe would deflect the CMB radiation, creating “shadows” in the observable radiation. But when the Alabama scientists measured this effect, they did not find any strong “shadows” as expected.
Equally last year, the same researchers published results of a study using WMAP data to look for evidence of "lensing" effects which should have also been seen, but weren't, if the microwave background was a Big Bang remnant.
This indicates that the CMB radiation may not be “behind” distant galaxies, but is much closer instead. Since the big bang interpretation REQUIRES the CMB radiation to be behind the farthest galaxies, this new discovery is a devastating blow to the Big Bang Model, and indicates that the CMB radiation cannot be leftover radiation from a Big Bang. Of course, this isn’t the only evidence against a big bang.”
…..and you can read up on the accumulating scientific evidence AGAINST the Big Bang here:-
http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/astronomy.asp#big_bang
Wicknight
Its nonsense when you think about it
…….as good a summary of the Big Bang Theory as you are likely to get on this thread or anywhere else!!!!!:D
Son Goku
500,000 years after the events I described. Basically electromagnetism causes an effect called the Van der Waals effect,
………and I suppose you also believe that 13 billion years later Van der Waals himself spontaneously arose and spoke to many!!!!!:)
……..h’mm……I see………. great story, BTW!!!!:)
Jakkass
Surely if they don't last very long, then how can the earth last for 13 billion years. It doesn't make sense. And secondly if something was to bang itself into existence wouldn't the item have to exist in the first place to bang itself into existence. It doesn't make sense either.
The Big Bang – first there was nothing – and then it BLEW UP!!!!!
Wicknight
But you know a loaf of bread has to be made by something, instead of being say being born or naturally formed.
You don't know life has to be made by something, or that the universe has to be made by something. You just assume they do.
If you KNOW that a SIMPLE Pan Loaf cannot make itself without an input of intelligence – surely you should also realise that an infinitely more COMPLEX living cell equally cannot spontaneously arise.
I accept that the source of intelligent input in life may be an ‘open’ scientific question – even though the God of the Bible ‘fits the bill’ in EVERY respect!!!!
Son Goku
Particles are more like undulations of an underlying entity.
Do you know what, you are a poet and you don’t know it!!!!:)
Jakkass
The Big Bang is a very feasible theory for the creation of the Earth, if one takes into account that God was behind it. Otherwise it is just a load of crap, I'm sorry it is.
Ditto for Evolution ……….
………but unfortunately for Big Bangers and Evolutionists God said that He Directly Created both the Universe and all life.
Wicknight
The purpose of the Big Bang theories are to model the Big Bang
………. on some catwalk somewhere, I suppose!!!!
Son Goku
No theory explains how the world was created, does that mean they are all useless?
The Direct Divine Creation Theory DOES!!!!!!!!
Scofflaw
After the Universe came into being through the Big Bang, the universe consisted briefly of pure energy.
Where did the energy come from then????
Scofflaw
We live at the tail-end of this enormously complex and detailed process, looking back on it from the perspective of living only 70 years. It's hardly surprising that we find it hard to believe.
We find it hard to believe because it is scientifically impossible!!!!:) 0 -
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J C wrote:The truth of the Word of God has a certain irresistable quality - I just knew that you would eventually find it!!!:D
Clearly you making things up, changing your "theories" and lying as you go along is slowly convincing me of the "Word of God" ... yes JC, that is what is happening :rolleyes:
We've missed you ... nothing convince me more that your religion's model of science is complete nonsense than your ramblings on the subject 0 -
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Wicknight
Oh great, JC is back………
………and I missed you too!!!!:)
Wicknight
to explain to us how children mutate as they grow,
Not quite – in fact I used the phenomenon of children growing - and changing as they do so, as an example of biological change using pre-existing, pre-programmed genetic information…..
…….. and speciation ALSO uses pre-existing genetic information – and it doesn’t occur via mutagenesis!!!
Wicknight
that galaxies are really particles of "dust"
I have always accepted that Galaxies contain both stars and dust – you are the guys claiming that nothing blew up in the Big Bang!!!
Wicknight
and how evolution says that mud "spontaneously" turned into a fully developed human
I have always accepted that Evolutionists claim that it took about 5 billion years for the mud to turn into a Human Being………
….however, the addition of time to dead mud is NEVER going to generate life, much less a Human Being!!!!
Wicknight
woohoo ... I cannot contain my excitement
Creation Science can have that effect allright!!!!:D
Wicknight
you didn't happen to read a science book by any chance JC while you were on holidays? Leaving Cert biology maybe
No, I didn’t get around to checking if the Sorbonne Library had a copy, during my visit to France!!!!!:D
Wicknight
Nothing in science can be "proven", so how exactly are you stating, as a trained scientists of course, that Intelligent Design has been "scientifically proven"
Science is a body of falsifiable theories – so nothing can be scientifically proven beyond ALL doubt.
However, many things have been scientifically proven beyond REASONABLE doubt – and the Intelligent Design of life is one such thing!!!:cool:
Wicknight
tell us again JC how evolution says mud spontaneously turned into humans...
See above!!!
Wicknight
or maybe tell Son he is a poet again ...
OK.............. Son, you are a poet again!!!!:D
Wicknight
where is my pop corn
I don’t know ……….
……… maybe it is 'furiously evolving' into Mushy Peas in the back of your fridge!!!:D
Sangre
On the homepage of that website in the of the first articles I saw it talks about evolution as fact. Why is this a reputable website for the theory of the Big Bang and not the theory of evolution?
The point that I was making is that BOTH Evolutionists and Creationists accept that the Big Bang has ‘gone up in smoke’ – and the website was cited by me BECAUSE it is an Evolutionist website!!!.
Of course, because it is an Evolutionist website – it is to be expected that it will claim that ‘Evolution is a fact’ – when it is only a belief!!!!:D
Originally Posted by Sangre
On the homepage of that website in the of the first articles I saw it talks about evolution as fact. Why is this a reputable website for the theory of the Big Bang and not the theory of evolution?
Scofflaw
Easy one! That would be on account of them being right about the Big Bang, but not about Evolution.
Got it in one, Scofflaw!!!!
Originally Posted by Sangre
Has JC said anything new for the last 40 or so pages? (Haven't been reading that long)
Scofflaw
JC has stuck with what he knows to be true throughout this thread. To the point, indeed, where I can generally tell you what his answer will be - although I lack the necessary intellectual qualities for some of his more exotic trips through the truthosphere.
You are indeed becoming quite a promising Creation Scientist, Scofflaw!!!!
Will you ‘cover’ for me on this thread, next time I go on holidays?????
Originally Posted by Scofflaw
After the Universe came into being through the Big Bang, the universe consisted briefly of pure energy.
Originally Posted by J C
Where did the energy come from then????
Scofflaw
Out of nothing. I'm pretty certain that's what the Bible says too.
No, the Bible says that the Universe was Created by an omnipotent and omniscient God – who ISN’T “nothing”!!!:D
stevejazzx
not only did a glorious designer spontaneously morph from nothing to infintie ineffable complexity but then proceeded to produce to billions (thats one thousand million lest we forget) of galaxies with billions of stars (the heavens presumably)
Pretty accurate apart from the important fact that the ‘glorious designer’ was pre-existent to His Creation – and so He didn’t ‘morph from nothing’!!!!
stevejazzx
and then on whim decided that wasn't enough and on just one of these satrs, yes just one, that he would allow the atmosphere and planetary conditions to support lots of teeny tiny little organisms call humans who would suffer forever becasue they had sinned against him.
Pretty accurate again, apart from the important fact that God will save every Human who believes on Him!!!:cool:
stevejazzx
So we might concievably imagine this timeline:
· 4000 million years of simple cells (also known as single celled organisms),
· 3000 million years of photosynthesis,
· 2000 million years of complex cells,
· 1000 million years of multicellular life,
· 600 million years of simple animals,
· 570 million years of arthropods
· 550 million years of complex animals
· 500 million years of fish and proto-amphibians,
· 475 million years of land plants,
· 400 million years of insects and seeds,
· 360 million years of amphibians,
· 300 million years of reptiles,
· 200 million years of mammals,
· 150 million years of birds,
· 100 million years of flowers
We can, of course, IMAGINE almost anything………….
………but the REALITY is that ALL of these creatures are alive TODAY – and many look EXACTLY like their supposedly hundreds of millions of years old fossils…….
……….but do you know what the real 'kicker' is ?????
……it is the discovery of fossils of things like supposedly ‘300 million year old Dinosaurs' - with their blood cells intact – and capable of almost providing a transfusion!!!!:D
Wicknight
We've missed you ...
Missing you already – with bells on!!!:D0 -
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