The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 1)

robindch

johnny72 wrote:

are soon gonna make their 'own' youtube

Already have. It's called godtube:

http://www.godtube.com

A taste:

http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=a79e78aaeda80516ae2a
http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=c5280214e0486b273a5f
http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=3bb12d203f45a912eeaf
http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=ccb4a60206a83c8d5d8a

etc, etc.

jonny72

robindch wrote:

Already have. It's called godtube:

http://www.godtube.com

A taste:

http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=a79e78aaeda80516ae2a
http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=c5280214e0486b273a5f
http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=3bb12d203f45a912eeaf
http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=ccb4a60206a83c8d5d8a

etc, etc.

See the different tabs they have.. I thought the last one said Midgets.. now I'm disappointed

MooseJam

To the creation scientists, why doesn't it say Made By God across my back ?

J C

Son Goku wrote:

Basically growth rate isn't a hugely useful way to track populations, unless it is on time scales comparable to generation length, such as 100 years.


Alright, let's say the population between the two times was like this:

Time increases from left to right and population is vertical. The average in such a case carries no information as there is too much deviation. For a population to have a meaningful average, then it means it has a smooth evolution, no jumping about the place. However most populations under 30,000 don't evolve smoothly.

Would this help:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Population_curve.svg
I think that this PROVES that, not only COULD the Earth's population reach 8 billion in 4,500 years from a 'handful' of people ......but the Earth's population DID SO!!!!:D

The overall shape of the graph is pretty much agreed by BOTH Evolution AND Creation Scientists.

The fact that the Evolutionists on this thread are in denial over this simple fact and are trying to confuse when they can't convince, is doing serious damage to their credability when they argue over less straightforward issues!!!:D

Can I remind you that I was addressing the question of whether it was POSSIBLE that 8 BILLION people COULD descend from Noah and his three sons within 4,500 years.......and both my maths and the actual graph on Wikipedia PROVES that it COULD happen!!

I fully accept that populations can fall as well as rise......but 2.4 children per woman is EXTREMELY conservative......and that is all it would take to reach 8 billion over 4,500 years........so it is not only POSSIBLE.....but it is PROBABLE that it ACTUALLY occurred!!!:D

J C

robindch wrote:

Simplistic exponential (Malthusian) population growth simply doesn't happen outside of a Petri dish.

The following graph PROVES that "simplistic exponential (Malthusian) population growth" DID "happen outside of a Petri dish".......with the Human population over the past 4,500 years:D :eek:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_growth

pinksoir

I can't believe you'tr serious. That link you gave shows a population of 4 million at 10,0000 yrs BC that slowly grows to 6 billion or so over 12000 years. Now considering that you are claiming that the earth is only 6000 years old and that its population grew from 8 people to 6 billion in a 4500 years ( a quarter of the time shown in the link). I can't see how you could possibly even consider using that link as evidence to support what you are saying. How did you even think that that wouljd be in anyway supportive of your point?

Secondly, the point that son goku was making was that SMALL populations do not grow in the way that you propose they do. there are far too many factors and variables to consider. The link that you gave shows a population of 4 million (that's FOUR million - a relatively large number, about the same as the population of Ireland) growing slowly to a population of 6 billion, or 1500 times it's original size. Even if the rate was the same from your proposed 8 people, then the world's poulation would be around 12,000 people.

Unbelievable.

rockbeer

J C, let's make this simple. The graph shows population growing from around 20 million in 2,500 BC to around 6 billion today.

Please explain how that 'proves' population in fact grew from 8 individuals to 6 billion over the same period.

(Something tells me I'm going to regret letting myself get sucked in to this mad thread, and I don't think it's god.)

5uspect

Yes J C you're right! Its so obvious now.
If you assume that the world is 6000 years old and ignore most of the data that disagrees with you and then fit a exponential curve thru the data you like you get the answer you started with. Of course you have to ignore the magnitudes of people involved but you've shown you're well capable of that feat numerous times.



And you call yourself a scientist.:(

Ekancone

Anyone who picks up an Economics textbook will read that Malthus had ultimately been proved wrong. This should be pointed out, we all didnt die in the 19th century in case you didnt realise.

Zombrex

J C wrote:

Can I remind you that I was addressing the question of whether it was POSSIBLE that 8 BILLION people COULD descend from Noah and his three sons within 4,500 years

Actually that wasn't the question.

The question was how could you get couple of million people, dispersed as far a field as South America and Japan, only a few years after Noah.

The simple fact is that you wouldn't. Even using your ridiculous linear multiplication system you would have at most a few thousand.

Galvasean

J C wrote:

It doesn’t matter how long you wait, something that is dead will remain dead.

Hang on, what about Jesus?

Galvasean

robindch wrote:

Already have. It's called godtube:

http://www.godtube.com

A taste:

http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=a79e78aaeda80516ae2a
http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=c5280214e0486b273a5f
http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=3bb12d203f45a912eeaf
http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=ccb4a60206a83c8d5d8a

etc, etc.

The first one was hilarious. I liked the one about the i-Pod. It was clever. The one about bananas (in addition to peanut butter) disproving evolution was great. The last one was mind numbingly bad unfortunately. Basically saying everything bad that ever happened is the fault of the atheists (also lumping every other religion in the world as atheists too. "UNTOLD MILLIONS'... ooohh, scary.

Zombrex

Galvasean wrote:

Basically saying everything bad that ever happened is the fault of the atheists

You mean its not

Once again this is an example of theism just not getting atheism. The guys beef is with Communism. Russian Communism was the belief system that dedicated that religion is damaging to the State, and this belief system lead to the destruction and death of religious followers in the USSR.

Its funny that even with atheism getting wide spread media attention people still don't realise that atheism is not a religion, it is not a belief system. But I suppose when someone is used to viewing the world purely as groups of different religious beliefs it is hard no to group atheism in as just another religion

The Mad Hatter

Galvasean wrote:

The first one was hilarious. I liked the one about the i-Pod. It was clever. The one about bananas (in addition to peanut butter) disproving evolution was great. The last one was mind numbingly bad unfortunately. Basically saying everything bad that ever happened is the fault of the atheists (also lumping every other religion in the world as atheists too. "UNTOLD MILLIONS'... ooohh, scary.

Yes, I particularly like how Catholics are 'pagan temple worshippers led by a pope' in the early days of Christianity and the Inquisition, which somehow made them atheists, and were then suddenly the opressed Christians in Stalinist Russia.

I'd seen the banana one before, but it still makes me laugh.

BrianCalgary

Wicknight wrote:

You mean its not

Once again this is an example of theism just not getting atheism. The guys beef is with Communism. Russian Communism was the belief system that dedicated that religion is damaging to the State, and this belief system lead to the destruction and death of religious followers in the USSR.

Its funny that even with atheism getting wide spread media attention people still don't realise that atheism is not a religion, it is not a belief system. But I suppose when someone is used to viewing the world purely as groups of different religious beliefs it is hard no to group atheism in as just another religion

Ofg course atheism is a belief system. It may not be centeralised like Christianity, Islam, JW or mormonism, it still comes with beliefs.

Some of yours:
The Earth is 4.5 billion years old.
We all evolved
When we die we cease to exist.
There is no god, there can't be and there is no need for one.

Ekancone

BrianCalgary wrote:

Ofg course atheism is a belief system. It may not be centeralised like Christianity, Islam, JW or mormonism, it still comes with beliefs.

Some of yours:
The Earth is 4.5 billion years old.
We all evolved
When we die we cease to exist.
There is no god, there can't be and there is no need for one.

The difference being, we are willing to be proved wrong by our peers. Unlike you.

robindch

briancalgary wrote:

There is no god, there can't be and there is no need for one.

Who said these things? I'm mystified!

Did you get a chance to read my post from last friday evening:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=53661768&postcount=6357

BrianCalgary

robindch wrote:

Who said these things? I'm mystified!

Did you get a chance to read my post from last friday evening:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=53661768&postcount=6357

Talking about wicknights beliefs, as I have seen them over the last couple of years.

Yours could be different. And since they are your own beliefs, I do stand being corrected if I have read someone wrong.

I did and It was as always informative.

BrianCalgary

daithifleming wrote:

The difference being, we are willing to be proved wrong by our peers. Unlike you.

I am quite willing to change my entire belief system if you could prove the non-existence of God.

In doing so you would have to take Him away from all the times I have encountered God and His Spirit the many times He has been there to just be a friend and guide.

You would somehow have to produce historical evidence disproving the resurrection and the life of Christ, you would have to show how Jesus is not the Messiah prophesied in the OT.

If you coule yank all of that together then you would have a case against Jesus and the Christian God.

Sangre

BrianCalgary wrote:

Talking about wicknights beliefs, as I have seen them over the last couple of years.

Yours could be different.

If 2 atheists can have differing beliefs then how can it be a belief system.

The only thing atheists have in common is a lack of belief in a God(s). Any beliefs on the age of the earth or evolution have nothing to do with it.

MooseJam

BrianCalgary wrote:

In doing so you would have to take Him away from all the times I have encountered God and His Spirit

you actually encountered him ? did you go watch a football game together or have a beer with him, or maybe he visited you at home and you cooked up a nice meal for him, or no let me guess these were spiritual events where you felt basked in the love of God, his presence was all around eh, the usual BS where in fact nothing at all happened except you had some nameless feeling, news flash we all get strange feelings but the more emotional stable of us don't put it down to encounters with sky faeries.

robindch

BrianCalgary wrote:

I did and It was as always informative.

Well, not quite what I had hoped -- did you learn anything from the exchange? If so, what? Was there anything that made you feel "Oh, that's interesting; I didn't know that"?

PDN

J C wrote:

Can I remind you that I was addressing the question of whether it was POSSIBLE that 8 BILLION people COULD descend from Noah and his three sons within 4,500 years

Wicknight wrote:

Actually that wasn't the question.

The question was how could you get couple of million people, dispersed as far a field as South America and Japan, only a few years after Noah.

The simple fact is that you wouldn't. Even using your ridiculous linear multiplication system you would have at most a few thousand.

Actually that was the question (well, within 1.5 billion or so):

Moosejam wrote:

When did the flood take place ? there are 6.5 billion people on earth today, it should be fairly easy to work out whether it's possible to get 6.5 billion from the survivors on the ark in such a short time frame.

BrianCalgary

Sangre wrote:

If 2 atheists can have differing beliefs then how can it be a belief system.

The only thing atheists have in common is a lack of belief in a God(s). Any beliefs on the age of the earth or evolution have nothing to do with it.

hey Sangre
Read my post: I have highlighted the response to your objection.
Originally Posted by BrianCalgary
Ofg course atheism is a belief system. It may not be centeralised like Christianity, Islam, JW or mormonism, it still comes with beliefs.

Some of yours:
The Earth is 4.5 billion years old.
We all evolved
When we die we cease to exist.
There is no god, there can't be and there is no need for one.

Ekancone

BrianCalgary wrote:

hey Sangre
Read my post: I have highlighted the response to your objection.
Originally Posted by BrianCalgary
Ofg course atheism is a belief system. It may not be centeralised like Christianity, Islam, JW or mormonism, it still comes with beliefs.

Some of yours:
The Earth is 4.5 billion years old.
We all evolved
When we die we cease to exist.
There is no god, there can't be and there is no need for one.

Do you believe that the sky is blue?

BrianCalgary

MooseJam wrote:

you actually encountered him ? did you go watch a football game together or have a beer with him, or maybe he visited you at home and you cooked up a nice meal for him, or no let me guess these were spiritual events where you felt basked in the love of God, his presence was all around eh, the usual BS where in fact nothing at all happened except you had some nameless feeling, news flash we all get strange feelings but the more emotional stable of us don't put it down to encounters with sky faeries.

Please MooseJam you are getting very close to the line with this comment: the usual BS where in fact....

It is obvious that you have never recognised the presence of God. otherwise the ridicule would not be so apparent.

To answer your question, Jesus has been a member of my minor football team for years. I hear of other teams within our club that have issues with parents and players. Interesting in that I don't have any problems.

He has also been with me in the pub over a pint, as we fellowship in the local watering hole on cheap chicken wing night.

He has been with me as I preached and taught various classes. Among other times.

BrianCalgary

Just for fun I set up a spreadsheet. Cell A1 was 8. I then considered a 1% increase in susequent cells.

Each cell representing one year. Componded annualy my $8 would be worth:

$97,207,147,778,639,100,000,000,000,000

after 6,000 years.

Son Goku

BrianCalgary wrote:

Just for fun I set up a spreadsheet. Cell A1 was 8. I then considered a 1% increase in susequent cells.

Each cell representing one year. Componded annualy my $8 would be worth:

$97,207,147,778,639,100,000,000,000,000

after 6,000 years.

Aside from a theoretical period of compound interest what does that demonstrate?

Also evolution is a scientifically proven theory that has nothing to do with Atheism. Many Christians, Muslims, Hindu's, e.t.c. accept its evidence. It's a evidentially based fact, not a belief. Wording it like that is an attempt to weaken it.

Giblet

Imagine losing a percentage of that money in which to build upon. It's called death.

PDN

Son Goku wrote:

Aside from a theoretical period of compound interest what does that demonstrate?

It demonstrates the power of exponential growth, and it is a reasonable response to Moosejam's post about whether a population could grow from 8 to 6 billion in a few thousand years.

Now, if someone can answer my question, and assure me that it has been scientifically proved that it is absolutely physically impossible for a population to sustain a growth rate of slightly under 1% per year over a sustained length of time, then we can safely put JC's time scale to bed. If you can give me that assurance then I'll happily accept it. (Others might ask for you to cite empirical proof, but I'm a trusting sort of a chap who doesn't have a dog in this hunt anyway).