The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 1)

5uspect

rockbeer wrote:

Insects, obviously. There were loads of them floating about.

Honestly, anyone would think you chaps were deliberately setting out to find holes in JC's arguments or something.

Don't ye remember the mountains of rotten carrion that were feasted upon?

edited for grammar

Scofflaw

5uspect wrote:

Don't ye remember the mountains of rotten carrion that was feasted upon?

Do we really want to go through that again? It was silly enough first time.

piteously,
Scofflaw

5uspect

Scofflaw wrote:

Do we really want to go through that again? It was silly enough first time.

piteously,
Scofflaw

Certainly not, I think thats where I left this thread last time.

Zombrex

Galvasean wrote:

Well lets not forget that during the ice age (its not technically over yet because the poles are still frozen) the entire world wasn't covered in ice. For example South America covered in hot grasslands which were home to some very weird and spectacular animals.

http://www.museum.vic.gov.au/prehistoric/mammals/sth_america.html

Although I'm pretty sure Turkey (where Moses is said to have arrived after the flood) was pretty damn cold.

Well the main problem with JC's "theory" .. (sorry threw up a little in my mouth) .. isn't the ice age part, its the nuclear winter part.

Dust clouds from an actual nuclear winters gather over the areas effected by the bombs. Since JC's dust is supposed to be cause by massive tectonic activity over the entire Earth surface, the entire Earths surface would be covered. Forget hot South American grasslands, or a safe middle east. The whole Earth would take a major noise dive and more importantly most plant life would die due to the decrease in sunlight.

But then I never thought JC understood what a nuclear winter actually was, he was just using the term because it sounds good and he read it off AinG. He probably thinks it is just like any actual winter.

rockbeer

I always wondered where Noah decided to land the ark when the waters finally subsided. He must have found an amazing place to moor it, somewhere where the environment suited, lets say, the snow leopards, the anacondas and the gazelles, to name just three.

Did the ark have individual air-conditioned pens so each of the animal pairs could travel in conditions that approached their natural ones?

5uspect wrote:

Don't ye remember the mountains of rotten carrion that was feasted upon?

You surely don't think I've read the whole insane thread? Life's just too short.

After watching evan almighty, I've realised that the animals all behaved themselves on the ark because god made them. And that's why they didn't eat each other or anything. Yeah.

>.>

zod

rockbeer wrote:

I always wondered where Noah decided to land the ark when the waters finally subsided. He must have found an amazing place to moor it, somewhere where the environment suited, lets say, the snow leopards, the anacondas and the gazelles, to name just three.

Did the ark have individual air-conditioned pens so each of the animal pairs could travel in conditions that approached their natural ones?

apparently in Turkey in the Arak Mountains .. still people looking for the remains to this day.

Also it seems that marsupials (Koalas enjoyed more than eucalypt in those days ) made it from there to Australia, over a land bridge with Europe, without leaving a single marsupial fossil, beating all the placental mammals before Australia rushed south to it's present position in 5K years.

Galvasean

rockbeer wrote:

I always wondered where Noah decided to land the ark when the waters finally subsided. He must have found an amazing place to moor it, somewhere where the environment suited, lets say, the snow leopards, the anacondas and the gazelles, to name just three.

Snow leopards don't need to live in snow. Gazelles can live anywhere that isn't freezing and everyone knows anacondas can swim (guess they hung out with the insects).

Son Goku

J C wrote:

You would get a bigger population increase if nearly all of the men were vasecomised and nearly all of the women had their 'tubes tied' !!!:eek:

.....IF the 5,000 women in your 10,000 original population ONLY produced 2.5 children each.....you would reach a population of 12,500 children in the FIRST generation!!!:D

......and by the 28th generation over 5 MILLION people would be present at an average fertility rate of only 2.5 chldren per woman (and starting with 10,000 people)!!!:D

......were most of the men 'shooting blanks' in your 'logistical map'.....or what was going on, so that after 1,000 years, a population of 10,000 had only expanded to 12,000???!!!!!!!:eek:

.....or as Borat might ask........ did they have little, if any, "sexy times"???!!!!:D

I don't know, because it doesn't matter. Those are the results, end of story. You either deal with them as fact or talk ****e as usual.

Bisar wrote:

Question for Son though. Are those numbers correct? If I'm running them correctly the population stabilizes at 12,000 within a couple of generations and then plateaus. Intuitively, that doesn't look very reasonable

Yes, they are correct. Remember that the kind of population increase you are used to is unique to the last 300 years. Ancient Egypt had a population evolution similar to the one I described. To get 20th Century population increases you need an already fairly high base and then have r increase slowly.

bonkey

zod wrote:

apparently in Turkey in the Arak Mountains .. still people looking for the remains to this day.

Also it seems that marsupials (Koalas enjoyed more than eucalypt in those days ) made it from there to Australia, over a land bridge with Europe, without leaving a single marsupial fossil, beating all the placental mammals before Australia rushed south to it's present position in 5K years.

Not to mention the myriad of other non-flying, non-swimming life which is to be found across the various Pacific islands.

Galvasean

bonkey wrote:

Not to mention the myriad of other non-flying, non-swimming life which is to be found across the various Pacific islands.

Maybe there were really fast waves and they got swept across by makeshift rafts, trees etc?

Scofflaw

zod wrote:

apparently in Turkey in the Arak Mountains .. still people looking for the remains to this day.

Also it seems that marsupials (Koalas enjoyed more than eucalypt in those days ) made it from there to Australia, over a land bridge with Europe, without leaving a single marsupial fossil, beating all the placental mammals before Australia rushed south to it's present position in 5K years.

Not only that, but not a single marsupial was left behind, or a single one of any of the other animals and plants that are unique to Australia. But, hey, omnipotence, right?

cordially,
Scofflaw

MooseJam

If there was a flood wouldn't the huge freshwater lakes become salinated

Scofflaw

MooseJam wrote:

If there was a flood wouldn't the huge freshwater lakes become salinated

That's true. You'd hardly expect the Great Lakes, or Baikal, or Lake Vostok, to be freshwater, would you?

cordially,
Scofflaw

rockbeer

MooseJam wrote:

If there was a flood wouldn't the huge freshwater lakes become salinated

Another groundless objection. Is there any proof that the oceans were salinated in ancient times? I expect they became salinated after the flood, probably by all the dust which fell into them at the end of the nuclear winter.

Ciaran500

Why would god entrust such great responsibility to Noah, make hime collect every animal and go through all the work of building an ark if he is all powerful? Surely he should of done it himself to make sure everything was done right.

Giblet

The story would just suck then.

Scofflaw

Giblet wrote:

The story would just suck then.

The only limit on God's omnipotence is narrative necessity...

cordially,
Scofflaw

Ekancone

zod wrote:

apparently in Turkey in the Arak Mountains .. still people looking for the remains to this day.

Also it seems that marsupials (Koalas enjoyed more than eucalypt in those days ) made it from there to Australia, over a land bridge with Europe, without leaving a single marsupial fossil, beating all the placental mammals before Australia rushed south to it's present position in 5K years.

I laughed out load at this, brilliant.

J C

Moosejam
What was with the ice age ? he'd killed off everyone with the flood, the people left were supposed to be the good guys so why an ice-age, was that just something for his own amusement that had nothing to do with anything really

Is it because your username contains the word ‘Moose’ that you have such an abiding interest in all things Arctic and 'icy' ????

Anyway, the Ice Age was a resultant effect of the Earth’s climate settling down after the Flood.

The Ice Age was confined to the higher latitudes and altitudes……and so there was plenty of hospitable lands for Noah and his immediate descendents to colonise initially.:D


5uspect
So lets get this straight.
-Noah builds an Ark full of animals from all around the world.
-God floods the planet.
- Everyone not on the Ark is dead except the rafting insects (does that make them evil or something?)
-The flood ends and God commands Team Noah to go out and spread across the Earth, but they can't cos, well there's an ice age.
- Nor can they bring back all the wildlife cos of the ice age.
-Then God goes and punishes them for not spreading out.

You have got MOST of it correct…..

……but, as I have already said, the Ice Age was confined to the higher latitudes and altitudes……and so there was plenty of hospitable lands for Noah and his immediate descendents to colonise.:)


Wicknight
Well done JC, hats off.

Thanks, Wicknight………any more praise and you will embarrass me!!!!:o


Bisar
A few years? Your link says the ice age lasted 700 years.

…….great to see you reading my links in DETAIL!!!!

….BTW, I used the term “a few years” to indicate that it wasn’t ‘millions of years’!!!!


Wicknight
The ice age is from all the dust that is thrown into the air from the massive tectonic movement of the land masses causing the formation of mountain ranges such as the Alps, activity that isn't mentioned anywhere in the Bible

There are many things not recorded in the Bible……and that is where Creation Science comes in!!!!!


Scofflaw
But hey, that's just crazy talk, right?

…..yes……crazy as a Fox!!!!!:eek:


Originally Posted by MooseJam
what did all of the predators eat ?

Galvasean
Id imagine after the flood water went away there would be lots of washed up fish, the odd whale etc. lying around. They'd probably rot something awful after a week or two, Good times to be a komodo dragon.

…….or a Big Cat…….or a Bear…..or any other Omnivore!!!:D


Bisar
There's a thought. Someone, somewhere, said fish, whales etc would not have been on the Ark since they could swim and hence didn't need to be rescued. Do you think the flood was precisely engineered to leave only two of each kind of aquatic creature? Or were they not subject to the whole "two of every kind" rule that the land based creatures got stuck with?

The ‘two of every kind’ DIDN’T apply to aquatic creatures!!!!


Originally Posted by Galvasean
Good times to be a komodo dragon

2Scops
Or indeed a dinosaur, to use the modern nomenclature

Scofflaw
Or even a rhino.

Galvasean
Since the Rhinoceros was named and described before the Triceratops the name Rhinoceros is valid.
Not sure but I think the word dinosaur (deinos+sauros) was coined before the discovery of the scientific discovery of komodo dragon. I hereby petition that it be renamed Komodosaurus dracoii!

…..such enthusiasm!!!:D

……and you are ALL learning so fast too…..

…….have you thought about ‘going the whole hog’ ………and becoming a Creation Scientist???

This thread is truly an outpouring of the Holy Spirit!!!!
Would anybody believe that Atheists would be so enthusiastically discussing the minutiae of the Word of God and the events surrounding Noah’s Flood .......strange days indeed!!!!!:D


Wicknight
....its the nuclear winter part.

Dust clouds from an actual nuclear winters gather over the areas effected by the bombs.

The dust clouds would be blown about by the prevailing winds ……and they would not gather where the bombs dropped……but the clouds could easily blow back on the people who deployed the bombs, in the first place…..just like the gas that was used in the trenches of WWI!!!

In any event, the Ice Age Event was largely caused by enormous clouds of STEAM released through the boiling of seawater as the hot magma on the ocean floors cooled down …….and when this warm moist air met the cold air in the high latitudes the ‘mother and father’ of a warm front developed leading to vast accumulations of snow that eventually compacted into ice......and thus we got the Ice Age........complete with an annoying little 'wide-eyed' Squirrel that was totally pre-occupied with saving his nuts!!!!:eek:


Rockbeer
I always wondered where Noah decided to land the ark when the waters finally subsided. He must have found an amazing place to moor it, somewhere where the environment suited, lets say, the snow leopards, the anacondas and the gazelles, to name just three.

The answer is that Snow Leopards and Gazelles are speciated from less specialised original Cat and Antelope Kinds ……and their original post-flood ancestors would have been very suited to the temperate climate that they found when they emerged from the Ark in Turkey!!!!

………..and the following quote from Galvasean also provides you with more information on your question……..

Galvasean
Snow leopards don't need to live in snow. Gazelles can live anywhere that isn't freezing and everyone knows anacondas can swim (guess they hung out with the insects).


Bluewolf
After watching evan almighty, I've realised that the animals all behaved themselves on the ark because god made them.

……and God made you too, Bluewolf…….and He loves you and wants to save you as well!!!!


Zod
Also it seems that marsupials (Koalas enjoyed more than eucalypt in those days ) made it from there to Australia, over a land bridge with Europe, without leaving a single marsupial fossil, beating all the placental mammals before Australia rushed south to it's present position in 5K years.

There is a widespread, but mistaken, belief that Marsupials are only found in Australia, thus supporting the idea that they must have evolved there.
However, living marsupials, opossums, are found also in North and South America, and fossil Marsupials have been found on every continent. Likewise, monotremes were once thought to be unique to Australia, but the discovery in 1991 of a fossil platypus tooth in South America stunned the scientific community.

....so the Marsupial Opossums made it to the Americas…….and most of the animals in Australia were probably introduced there by Humans across the deep seas surrounding this country…….and the Marsupials continue to survive happily in the ecosystems of this unique and amazing continent to this very day!!!
More knowledge can be gleaned on this topic at http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/migration.asp?srcFrom=aignews

Bonkey
Not to mention the myriad of other non-flying, non-swimming life which is to be found across the various Pacific islands.

The ancestors of many of these creature swam/flew to these islands originally…..and the subsequent generations LOST the ability to fly and/or swim. Equally, some were introduced by Man and yet others arrived as stowaways on driftwood, etc.!!!!


Galvasean
Maybe there were really fast waves and they got swept across by makeshift rafts, trees etc?

…..such events have indeed been recorded in modern times!!!
.....it is thought that Krakatowa island was (in part) restocked by animals in this manner!!!

Scofflaw
Not only that, but not a single marsupial was left behind, or a single one of any of the other animals and plants that are unique to Australia. But, hey, omnipotence, right?

Competition, isolation and speciation were the actual forces at work!!!!!

……and maybe occasionally a little omnipotence!!!!:D


Moosejam
If there was a flood wouldn't the huge freshwater lakes become salinated

Yes……but then the salt would have been flushed out to sea by subsequent rainfall entering and leaving the lakes.

Equally, the fact that there was salt in the original lakes ……is evidenced by the 'salt flats' produced when the early lakes dried out in arid areas before they were flushed out by rainwater…..

Salt is also present in some groundwater and this results in salination problems with soils when groundwater / lakewater is used for irrigation in hot dry areas!!!


Ciaran500
Why would god entrust such great responsibility to Noah, make hime collect every animal and go through all the work of building an ark if he is all powerful? Surely he should of done it himself to make sure everything was done right.

Oh, Amazing Grace, how sweet thou art that chose a wretch like me……..and Noah!!!!


Scofflaw
The only limit on God's omnipotence is narrative necessity...

…….but even this limit is self-imposed……..of course!!!!:D

5uspect

J C wrote:

5uspect
So lets get this straight.
-Noah builds an Ark full of animals from all around the world.
-God floods the planet.
- Everyone not on the Ark is dead except the rafting insects (does that make them evil or something?)
-The flood ends and God commands Team Noah to go out and spread across the Earth, but they can't cos, well there's an ice age.
- Nor can they bring back all the wildlife cos of the ice age.
-Then God goes and punishes them for not spreading out.

You have got MOST of it correct…..

……but, as I have already said, the Ice Age was confined to the higher latitudes and altitudes……and so there was plenty of hospitable lands for Noah and his immediate descendents to colonise.:)

So you admit that God punished them for not being able to do something he made it impossible for them to do? Or did God not cause the ice age?
That must have been satan?

Wouldn't a nuclear or volcanic winter affect the whole globe? Don't you imagine that would affect food production?

How does this affect your population calculations (for want of a better word)?
Suddenly there is much less space available, they can't grow food because there is not enough sunlight, mortality rates are higher, the list goes on. But you'll simply say that God made it all sunny where the people were no doubt, allowing you to simply ignore them in your ridiculous claims on population growth.

Also if the ice age followed immediately after the flood and the mountain ranges occurred during the flood why aren't you stuck up the Alps with your shovel digging up all that evidence?

Bonkey, do you notice any creationists with shovels around Switzerland?

Zombrex

J C wrote:

The dust clouds would be blown about by the prevailing winds ……and they would not gather where the bombs dropped……but the clouds could easily blow back on the people who deployed the bombs, in the first place…..just like the gas that was used in the trenches of WWI!!!

In any event, the Ice Age Event was largely caused by enormous clouds of STEAM released through the boiling of seawater as the hot magma on the ocean floors cooled down …….and when this warm moist air met the cold air in the high latitudes the ‘mother and father’ of a warm front developed leading to vast accumulations of snow that eventually compacted into ice......and thus we got the Ice Age........complete with an annoying little 'wide-eyed' Squirrel that was totally pre-occupied with saving his nuts!!!!:eek:

Ok, well at least wasting 2 minutes reading that nonsense confirmed you don't know what either a nuclear winter or an ice age actually are

Steam indeed ... :rolleyes:

Zombrex

5uspect wrote:

- Everyone not on the Ark is dead except the rafting insects (does that make them evil or something?)

You have to remember that, according to JC at least, God is an idiot.

When he says he is going to send a flood to wipe out all land animals he effectively misses, and fails to wipe out any insect species. So you have hundreds of thousand of insect species (millions of insects presumably) surviving, and probably sticking 2 fingers up at God while they are at it.

It reminds you of that joke, what happened when God threw a rock at the ground? He missed!

This ties back to JC's earlier claims of God's stupidity with the whole "intelligent design" argument. While a 1st year medical student can list off 100 inefficient or simply badly designed areas of the human body, God, being the idiot that he is, fails to improve on these when making us.

Creation Science, rather paradoxically, requires God to be a moron.

5uspect

Wicknight wrote:

You have to remember that, according to JC at least, God is an idiot.

When he says he is going to send a flood to wipe out all land animals he effectively misses, and fails to wipe out any insect species. So you have hundreds of thousand of insect species (millions of insects persumable) surviving, and probably sticking 2 fingers up at God while they are at it.

It reminds you of that joke, what happened when God threw a rock at the ground? He missed!

This ties back to JC's earlier claims of God's stupidity with the whole "intelligent design" argument. While a 1st year medical student can list of 100 inefficient or simply badly designed areas of the human body, God, being the idiot that he is, fails to improve on these when making us.

Creation Science, rather paradoxically, requires God to be a moron.

Quite true, either that or this is one big practical joke.

Scofflaw

JC wrote:

Scofflaw wrote:

The only limit on God's omnipotence is narrative necessity...

…….but even this limit is self-imposed……..of course!!!!

Well, from the same source, anyway.

5uspect wrote:

Quite true, either that or this is one big practical joke.

Yes, still not sure myself. One could also consider a genuinely committed Christian, genuinely desiring to lead us back to righteousness, effectively keeping us here by playing a long and elaborate charade as a barking mad Creationist. Whatever is happening, JC continues to impress, one way or another.

cordially,
Scofflaw

J C

5uspect
How does this affect your population calculations (for want of a better word)?

It doesn’t affect them at all…..the Ice Age was confined to the higher latitudes and altitudes……and so there was plenty of hospitable lands for Noah and his immediate descendents to colonise initially…….and by the time the population had grown into the millions……the ice had melted…….thereby providing more land to be settled by Noah’s descendents!!!!:D


5uspect
Suddenly there is much less space available, they can't grow food because there is not enough sunlight, mortality rates are higher, the list goes on. But you'll simply say that God made it all sunny where the people were no doubt, allowing you to simply ignore them in your ridiculous claims on population growth.

You really are a terrible pessimist…….it was actually nice and sunny, in the Middle East – and a lovely cooling breeze with gentle rains blew down from the icy north.
The post-Flood World of Noah and his immediate descendants was idyllic…..and that was one of the reasons why Nimrod and his buddies got so comfortable in Babel that they refused to colonise the rest of the World!!!!!:D


5uspect
Also if the ice age followed immediately after the flood and the mountain ranges occurred during the flood why aren't you stuck up the Alps with your shovel digging up all that evidence?

……because I am stuck here answering all of YOUR many questions!!!!:eek:


Wicknight
Steam indeed….

Yes indeed, the sea temperatures were considerably higher than today in the immediate aftermath of the Flood ……..and this produced much higher levels of rainfall than today, in places like the Sahara and the Middle East......which had a very positive effect on their agricultural productivity. :cool:


Wicknight
When he (God) says he is going to send a flood to wipe out all land animals he effectively misses, and fails to wipe out any insect species.

Many insects (and aquatic creatures) were also wiped out!!!!


Wicknight
So you have hundreds of thousand of insect species (millions of insects presumably) surviving, and probably sticking 2 fingers up at God while they are at it.

The insects survived outside of the Ark…..

……..and because the insects had NEITHER the inclination nor the appendages……they didn’t ‘stick two fingers up’ at God…….they left that dubious privilege to the people of Babel.!!!!:eek:


Wicknight
While a 1st year medical student can list of 100 inefficient or simply badly designed areas of the human body, God, being the idiot that he is, fails to improve on these when making us.

Sounds like somebody, looking up at a jumbo jet and claiming that it would look better without it’s wings!!!!!

The Medical literature is littered with over 100 so called 'vestigial organs' that turned out to have very important functions……upon closer examination!!!

For example, Evolutionists originally classified the Thyroid Gland as a ‘vestigial organ’ – because it has no duct to supposedly send secretions anywhere.
When people had an enlarged Thyroid (or goitre) it was routinely removed. It was a young Professor of Surgery, Theodore Kocker, who discovered that some patients were going insane a few years after their operation…..and he found that if he left any part of the Goitre behind, the patients didn’t become psychotic. It was not until 30 years later that Thyroxine was discovered, and the essential nature of the Thyroid Gland and it’s endocrine hormone were confirmed!!!

So now apparently, the Evolutionists have 'discovered' 100 'design problems' in Humans!!

Our bodies are exquisitely designed for purpose!!!:D

Unfortunately, our fallen state does allow disease and death to disrupt this perfection!!


Scofflaw
Yes, still not sure myself. One could also consider a genuinely committed Christian, genuinely desiring to lead us back to righteousness, effectively keeping us here by playing a long and elaborate charade

….just 'doing my bit' to educate with some Scientific facts and Biblical truths!!!!:D


Scofflaw
Whatever is happening, JC continues to impress, one way or another.

First Wicknight…..and now Scofflaw……all of this praise is just too much for me…..

……I freely give all of the credit and the glory to God!!!:eek:

Scofflaw

J C wrote:

Scofflaw wrote:

Whatever is happening, JC continues to impress, one way or another.

First Wicknight…..and now Scofflaw……all of this praise is just too much for me…..

……I freely give all of the credit and the glory to God!!!:eek:

Probably best.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Galvasean

Oh yes, blame God :rolleyes:

MooseJam

JC why does your sig say "Say but the words "I believe on Jesus Christ" and you WILL be saved" is that a typo or is it just the way they talked in the olden days, in sounds much better "I believe in Jesus Christ", I don't by the way

The Mad Hatter

J C wrote:

5uspect
Also if the ice age followed immediately after the flood and the mountain ranges occurred during the flood why aren't you stuck up the Alps with your shovel digging up all that evidence?

……because I am stuck here answering all of YOUR many questions!!!!:eek:

Yes, valid reasoning as usual. Stay here throwing out often hilarious unsupported claims or go and find some real evidence.

In fact, I think we'll be fine without you anyhow. Off you go! Bye!

Wicknight
Steam indeed….

Yes indeed, the sea temperatures were considerably higher than today in the immediate aftermath of the Flood ……..and this produced much higher levels of rainfall than today, in places like the Sahara and the Middle East......which had a very positive effect on their agricultural productivity. :cool:

Er...you realise that if the temperature of the sea was one degree higher than it is now, then all plankton (the centre of the oceanological ecosystem) would die. Right?

Wicknight
While a 1st year medical student can list of 100 inefficient or simply badly designed areas of the human body, God, being the idiot that he is, fails to improve on these when making us.

Sounds like somebody, looking up at a jumbo jet and claiming that it would look better without it’s wings!!!!!

More like somebody looking at that sentence and realising that it would look better without the apostrophe or comma. Or four of the exclamation marks.

Scofflaw
Whatever is happening, JC continues to impress, one way or another.

First Wicknight…..and now Scofflaw……all of this praise is just too much for me…..

……I freely give all of the credit and the glory to God!!!:eek:

Well, in fairness, you have shown a near-superhumanly level of creativity in your efforts to ignore the evidence.