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The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 1)
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Sea temperatures were considerably higher (what? 10 degrees? 20 degrees?) in the aftermath of the Flood during a nuclear winter and ice ageJ C wrote:Yes indeed, the sea temperatures were considerably higher than today in the immediate aftermath of the Flood
JC do you even know what a nuclear winter is????? Seriously, WTF are you talking about?:rolleyes: :rolleyes:J C wrote:……..and this produced much higher levels of rainfall than today, in places like the Sahara and the Middle East......which had a very positive effect on their agricultural productivity. :cool:
High rain fall destroys agriculture .. have you looked at the new recently? :rolleyes:J C wrote:Many insects (and aquatic creatures) were also wiped out!!!!
Read your Bible JC :rolleyes:
All creatures (that includes insects by the way JC) except those on the Ark, were wiped out JC
If they weren't that means God f**ked up. Pure and simple.
Genesis 6:17
I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish.
All life! Every creature JC! Fish, insects, mammals, bacteria, everything.
Genesis 7:23
Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; men and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds of the air were wiped from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark.
The only creatures that survive are on the Ark. Pure and simple. Nothing on the land survived.
Which of course brings up back to the 900,000 insect species ... :rolleyes:J C wrote:The insects survived outside of the Ark…..
NOTHING survived outside the Ark JC ... read your Bible.
Genesis 7:4
Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made.
Genesis 7:23
Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; men and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds of the air were wiped from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark.
With a literal reading of the Bible not even the fish in the sea survived. The only living things left on the Earth were Noah, his family, and the animals he had in the Ark.
Its your Bible JC! Its amazing that you haven't even read it
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:0 -
Wicknight wrote:
Genesis 7:4
Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made.
Genesis 7:23
Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; men and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds of the air were wiped from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark.
that says they were wiped from the earth, and they were - literally, they were wiped from the earth and found purchase on floating debris :cool:
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MooseJam wrote:that says they were wiped from the earth, and they were - literally, they were wiped from the earth and found purchase on floating debris :cool:
That would be a nice try, but they'd still be "on the face of the earth" - fortunately the Bible is very precise in such matters.
cordially,
Scofflaw0 -
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Wicknight wrote:Genesis 6:17
I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it.
Clearly, this only applies to creatures (or 'kinds') with well-developed respiratory systems.
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2Scoops wrote:Clearly, this only applies to creatures (or 'kinds') with well-developed respiratory systems.
well spotted, I think we have a winner0 -
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Moosejam
JC why does your sig say "Say but the words "I believe on Jesus Christ" and you WILL be saved" is that a typo or is it just the way they talked in the olden days, in sounds much better "I believe in Jesus Christ", I don't by the way
‘Believing on’ Jesus is the term used in the KJV. It encompasses both the idea of ‘believing in’ and ‘relying on’ Jesus to save you.
…and BTW Jesus Christ believes in YOU …..and wants to save YOU!!! :cool:
The Mad Hatter
Er...you realise that if the temperature of the sea was one degree higher than it is now, then all plankton (the centre of the oceanological ecosystem) would die. Right?
Funny thing then, that the Antarctic Oceean is about zero Degrees Celsius and it is full of plankton, while tropical seas are about 30 Degrees and they are ALSO full of plankton…….it doesn’t sound like plankton is particularly sensitive to water temperature …..does it??
In any event, although there were extensive boiling 'hot spots' around volcanically active areas on the ocean floor, there was plenty of moderate temperature water available for the plankton to survive in!!!
The Mad Hatter
you have shown a near-superhumanly level of creativity in your efforts to ignore the evidence.
That dubious honour rests fairly and squarely with the Evolutionists on this thread!!:eek:
Sev
I dont quite understand how creationists can dismiss radiometric dating? I mean.. it wasnt a single experiment, that one day somebody performed, that needs refutation.
But there are surely a vast number of different radioactive isotopes that can be used in different ways to measure the age of rocks in many different places all over the world as many times as you want, and they will always arrive at the same conclusion.
They are all based on the same inter-dependent and/or circular reasoning!!!
Radioactive dating of rocks doesn’t work in PRINCIPLE – because we cannot know what the starting levels of radioactivity were or if further radioactivity was added or taken away (for example, by the differential leaching of the radioactive chemicals such as Potassium) during the ‘life’ of the rock. It also doesn’t work in PRACTICE – because erroneous (very large) ages are routinely obtained from rocks of recent KNOWN ages.
Here is an example of where 187Re ions were found to decay at a rate amounting to a half-life of only 33 years.....which represents a staggering billion-fold increase over the conventional half-life, which is 42 BILLION years....WITHOUT alteration of the known physical constants...and via beta (negatron) decay!!!!:D
http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v15/i2/acceleration.asp
Palaeontology shows the sequence in which creatures were killed and buried during Noah’s Flood – seafloor dwelling creatures and flocculated plankton first – all the way up to large land animals and birds, that obviously would be last to ‘succumb to the waves’. The extraction of red blood cells and haemoglobin from (unfossilized) dinosaur bone and the extraction of DNA fragments from insects trapped in supposedly multiple million year old amber indicates that these creatures were alive very recently indeed. If these bones / insects were, in fact, millions of years old, all biological material in them would have completely degenerated by now. The observed rates of biological degeneration under such conditions would give maximal ages of a few thousand years for these bones / insects.
The list of species in the so-called Geological Column represents the order of their catastrophic burial and it is NOT a record of their supposed evolution.
Equally, using collections of animal and plant fossils to ‘date’ a rock on the basis of Evolutionary assumptions in relation to the assumed position of these creatures in the ‘Evolutionary Tree’ is only valid if Evolution (and its Tree) are scientifically valid. It is actually an example of circular reasoning in action.
Strata, which hold the same collection of fossils, could indicate that these creatures were buried during the same stage of the Flood Event for a number of reasons including their physical location in the Biosphere or the place where they gathered together before being drowned. It could also be related to their size, shape or hydrodynamic characteristics.
...and you can read here about why radiometric 'dating' can provide useful geological maps of how rocks were laid down during the Flood, even if the 'age' of the rocks is itself actually wrong :-
http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v24/i4/radiometric.asp
Equally, fossilized trees have been found recently in northeastern Hungary that are part of a supposed “eight-million-year-old swamp cypress forest.”
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/07/070731-fossilized-trees.html
National Geographic News describes the 16 trees as an “oddity” because “they did not petrify, or turn to stone, as preserved trees usually do [but instead,] retain[ed] their original wood.”
While National Geographic News did not publish the details on the find, the idea of eight-million-year-old wood certainly raises an eyebrow. In fact, the find reminds us of another “incredible” fossil find: the allegedly 65-million-year-old T. rex soft tissue found a few years back.:eek:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2005/0325Dino_tissue.asp
Sev
the earth is well older than 6000 years...
I have found that the claim that the Earth is less than 10,000 years old certainly gets peoples undivided attention......and petrified forests with intact wood (or T. Rex fossilis with intact blood cells) are much more likely to be 6,000 years old than they are to be 6,000,000 or indeed 60,000,000 years old (in the case of the T. Rex 'blood transfusion')!!!!:D
The 'Young Earth' dates also 'add up', when we consider how very SHORT the record of Human history on Earth actually IS!!!!:cool:
Sev
any choice to disbelieve that requires a baffling neglect of the fundamental tenets of probability.
The people really ignoring ‘the fundamental tenets of probability’ are the Evolutionists…….who believe that life in all of it’s magnificent specified complexity arose spontaneously…..despite the fact that the odds of obtaining the sequence for JUST ONE specific essential 100 chain protein is 10^^130 to one…..and there are only 10^^80 electrons in the Known Universe!!.:D
Originally Posted by J C
……..and this produced much higher levels of rainfall than today, in places like the Sahara and the Middle East......which had a very positive effect on their agricultural productivity
Wicknight
High rain fall destroys agriculture .. have you looked at the news recently?
Obviously, too much rain can be just as bad for farming, as a drought ……
….but please READ what I actually said…..that much higher levels of rainfall than TODAY, had a positive effect on agricultural productivity, in the (currently drought-prone) Sahara and the Middle East.:D
Wicknight
All creatures (that includes insects by the way JC) except those on the Ark, were wiped out JC
Genesis 6:17
I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish.
All life! Every creature JC! Fish, insects, mammals, bacteria, everything.
Genesis 7:23
Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; men and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds of the air were wiped from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark.
The only creatures that survive are on the Ark. Pure and simple. Nothing on the land survived.
Which of course brings up back to the 900,000 insect species ...
The statement by God that "I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth" clearly implies that the word "earth" means dry land in this instance......as 'bringing floodwaters forth under the sea' would be a meaningless statement!!!
In these passages God confirms that the flood waters that He unleashed upon the LAND, wiped out the following categories of LAND-BASED creatures outside of the Ark :-
“every creature that has the breath of life in it”….i.e. all land-based mammals and birds.
“the creatures that move along the ground” ……i.e. all land-based reptiles (and possible the non-flying insects).
Nothing is said about the fate of the aquatic creatures (including Fish, Amphibians and Cetaceans) or the flying insects or the plants.
Although the mortality rate amongst all of these organisms probably varied, it was overall probably quite high (as evidenced by the fossil record, in particular for bottom dwelling sea creatures),……but they certainly weren’t all wiped out.
A plain reading of Scripture indicates that these organisms WEREN’T included in the 'living cargo' list of the Ark…..and therefore these categories of organism were also NOT included in the statement that all of the “men and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds of the air were wiped from the earth”.
The aquatic creatures certainly survived outside of the Ark and although we cannot be definitive about all of the insects and plants, they probably survived outside of it as well ……although some are likely to have also stowed away on the Ark!!!:)
......and BTW the 900,000 species of insect probably belong to less than 1,000 KINDS of insect!!
Wicknight
what about the fish? Did Noah have aquariums? For the sharks?
Could I gently remind you that there wasn’t any shortage of water for the fishes, during the FLOOD!!!:D
Daithifleming
What about the fishermen back then? I presume some people were on boats at the time of the flood somewhere on the earth. Surely they didn’t drown, ……… How come they (fishermen, sailors) didnt survive?
It is thought that there was a single land mass (called 'Rodinia') prior to the Flood (with the remainder of the Earth covered by sea)……….so there was no necessity for extensive sea travel prior to Noah’s Flood……..and Mankind didn't eat meat (or fish) until after the Flood......
....so few, if any, fishermen or sailors probably existed prior to the Flood…….
......and in any event, if any fishermen or sailors did exist, they would probably have confined themselves to very small ‘inshore’ craft - around the shores of 'Rodinia' - and these craft would have been swamped by the huge waves of the Flood processes!!!
The only sufficiently large ocean-going vessel, at the time, that was capable of surviving the Flood, was the Ark......and it's scale was unsurpassed in Europe until The Great Eastern Liner during the mid-nineteenth Century.:cool: 0 -
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Wicknight
Genesis 7:4
Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made.
Every living creature that God made was destroyed. Every. Living. Creature.
As I keep reminding you JC, its your Bible. It says what it says. Every. Living. Creature
Firstly, it isn’t MY Bible …….it is God’s Holy Word.
Secondly, a plain reading of the above verse (in the context of the rest of the Biblical account of the Genesis Flood) would indicate that it DIDN’T mean that ALL LIFE would be DESTROYED.
God had ALREADY promised that Noah and every (land-based) creature on the Ark would SURVIVE.
Equally, a flood WOULDN’T logically drown AQUATIC creatures……..and therefore God’s chosen punishment (of a Flood) de facto EXCLUDED all water-based creatures from it’s direct effects.
The mortality rate amongst aquatic organisms would have varied, but 'bottom dwelling' sea creatures probably fared worst from the ‘collateral damage’ of the Flood, such as being buried in shifting and settling sediments, for example.
A plain reading of Scripture indicates that aquatic creatures (including fish, Amphibians and Cetaceans) as well as insects and plants WEREN’T included in the 'living cargo' list of the Ark NOR were they therefore included in the Divine condemnation that all of the “men and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds of the air" were to be wiped from the earth.:cool:
The aquatic creatures certainly survived outside of the Ark and although we cannot be definitive about the survival locations of all of the insects and plants, they probably survived largely outside of the Ark as well ……but some may also have stowed away on the Ark!!!
Ark Almighty!!!
I went along to see ‘Evan Almighty’ the other night, and I was quite impressed by this film.
It is a thoroughly enjoyable movie and I would recommend it as one of the best (and funniest) movies that I have seen on a ‘Creationist Theme’.
As usual, Morgan Freeman was outstanding, as only Morgan can be!!!
The movie ISN’T an account of the actual Flood ………it is set in the modern world, and considerable ‘artistic licence’ is used in the film, but that is how showbusiness works, after all!!
There were a few theological issues in the movie with which I wouldn't agree.......but all in all, it was quite respectful of the Creationist position.
I won’t spoil the movie for anybody who hasn’t seen it yet, by commenting further on the storyline…….except to say that ALL of this thread's participants would probably benefit from seeing it....
.....and I would suggest that they should also follow Evan Almighty's example.....and buy an 'Ark Building for Dummies' book........and read it, before asking any more questions about the Flood or the Ark, on this thread!!!:D
......and BTW, I particularly liked the 'Eleventh Commandment' that "Thou shalt do the dance"!!!!!:D
......most of the time we all take ourselves far too seriously!!!!:D0 -
So you calling God a liar?J C wrote:Firstly, it isn’t MY Bible …….it is God’s Holy Word.
Yes, because "wipe from the surface of the Earth" generally means "I'll let some of them live"J C wrote:Secondly, a plain reading of the above verse (in the context of the rest of the Biblical account of the Genesis Flood) would indicate that it DIDN’T mean that ALL LIFE would be DESTROYED.
God had ALREADY promised Noah that the only living creatures on the Earth that would survive would be those inside the Ark.J C wrote:God had ALREADY promised that Noah and every (land-based) creature on the Ark would SURVIVE.
Gensis 6:17
I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish.
Gensis 7:21
Every living thing that moved on the earth perished—birds, livestock, wild animals, all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind.J C wrote:Equally, a flood WOULDN’T logically drown AQUATIC creatures……..and therefore God’s chosen punishment (of a Flood) de facto EXCLUDED all water-based creatures from it’s direct effects.
You seem to be slightly missing the point of the Flood JC. It was, in Gods own words, to wipe from the surface of the Earth every living creature.
Everything not in the Ark died. Everything. How God killed the fish isn't really important. Everything died.
The mortality rate amongst aquatic organisms was 100%, because that was the purpose of the Flood. The only animals that survived where in the Ark.J C wrote:The mortality rate amongst aquatic organisms would have varied
Or are you claiming God is a liar? That when he says he means to kill all live he is just joking or messing around?J C wrote:A plain reading of Scripture indicates that aquatic creatures (including fish, Amphibians and Cetaceans) as well as insects and plants WEREN’T included in the 'living cargo' list of the Ark NOR were they therefore included in the Divine condemnation that all of the “men and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds of the air" were to be wiped from the earth.:cool:
Please "plain read" this JC - :rolleyes:
Gen 7:23
Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; men and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds of the air were wiped from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark.
The only creatures alive, according to the story, on earth after the flood were Noah and those in the Ark.
Not according to your Bible.J C wrote:The aquatic creatures certainly survived outside of the Ark
I mean if you want to ignore what the Bible says then go ahead, but one wonders what the point of any of this actually is if you aren't taking the Bible itself literally. The Bible says, very clearly, that all life not in the Ark was wiped out. Everything not in the Ark died. No fish in the sea, no insects floating on the trees. Nothing survived outside the Ark. End of storyJ C wrote:and although we cannot be definitive about the survival locations of all of the insects and plants, they probably survived largely outside of the Ark as well
Accept they didn't because the Bible clearly states that all live was wiped out. Insects are life (land life at that).0 -
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Those poor trilobites ... what did they do?Scofflaw wrote:JC is also conveniently ignoring the issue of marine fossils - of which there are many many more than there are terrestrial fossils. If fossils are the remains of the animals that died in the Flood, then we have incontrovertible evidence that marine creatures died in the Flood.
cordially,
Scofflaw
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Wicknight
So you calling God a liar?
No……..but you seem to not be able to understand that a plain reading of Scripture requires it to be read within context and with the appliance of logic !!!!!!!!!:eek:
Originally Posted by J C
Secondly, a plain reading of the above verse (in the context of the rest of the Biblical account of the Genesis Flood) would indicate that it DIDN’T mean that ALL LIFE would be DESTROYED
Wicknight
Yes, because "wipe from the surface of the Earth" generally means "I'll let some of them live"
“Wipe from the surface of the Earth" in this context, means to destroy all LAND-BASED creatures except those on the Ark.
We are ALREADY AGREED that it isn’t ALL life …….because it EXCLUDES all of the creatures on the Ark…..and it also excludes all plants and aquatic life as well!!!:D
Wicknight
God had ALREADY promised Noah that the only living creatures on the Earth that would survive would be those inside the Ark.
Genesis 6:17
I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish.
Genesis 7:21
Every living thing that moved on the earth perished—birds, livestock, wild animals, all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind.
No mention of plants or WATER-BASED creatures in that list…………that I can see!!!
…..it is quite clear that God is confining His comments to the members of the Animal Kingdom that inhabit 'dry land' in these passages…….and the word ‘earth’ therefore means ‘dry land’…..in these verses…….
The statement by God that "I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth" clearly implies that the word ‘earth’ means ‘dry land’ in this instance......as 'bringing floodwaters forth under the sea' would be a meaningless action!!!:eek:
Equally, a flood WOULDN’T logically drown AQUATIC creatures……..and therefore God’s chosen punishment (of a Flood) de facto EXCLUDED all water-based creatures from it’s direct effects.......but not it's indirect effects......as the profusion of marine fossils prove!!!:cool:
Wicknight
Please "plain read" this JC -
Gen 7:23
Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; men and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds of the air were wiped from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark.
The only creatures alive, according to the story, on earth after the flood were Noah and those in the Ark.
Great to see an Atheist advocating a PLAIN reading of Scripture!!!:eek:
Anyway, a plain reading of Scripture would indicate that all LAND-BASED animals (except those in the Ark) were wiped out…….and "the face of the earth" referred to in this passage is clearly the DRY LAND surface of the Earth ……and NOT the "face of it's WATERS"!!!!:D
Wicknight
I mean if you want to ignore what the Bible says then go ahead, but one wonders what the point of any of this actually is if you aren't taking the Bible itself literally. The Bible says, very clearly, that all life not in the Ark was wiped out. Everything not in the Ark died. No fish in the sea, no insects floating on the trees. Nothing survived outside the Ark. End of story
Now here is an irony of all ironies……an Atheist criticising a Creationist for NOT taking each word in the Bible literally!!!!:eek:
....are you some kind of 'closet' Bible Fundamentalist or something, Wicknight???
I have told you before that Creationists generally AREN’T Bible literalists……. but 'by the sound of things' some Atheists ARE !!!!:D
Creationists tend to support the PLAIN reading of Scripture – interpreting it literally when the passages describe obvious literal or historical events and allegorically when metaphors are being clearly deployed……and within context when the context demands!!!:D
Could I ask you for the Chapter and Verse where the Bible says that there were “no fish in the sea and no insects floating on the trees” after the Flood????
Scofflaw
JC is also conveniently ignoring the issue of marine fossils - of which there are many many more than there are terrestrial fossils. If fossils are the remains of the animals that died in the Flood, then we have incontrovertible evidence that marine creatures died in the Flood.
I have already said that “The mortality rate amongst aquatic organisms would have varied, but 'bottom dwelling' sea creatures probably fared worst from the ‘collateral damage’ of the Flood, such as being buried in shifting and settling sediments, for example.”
We probably have more marine fossils from the time of the Flood than terrestrial fossils………but this reflects the greater ease with which marine creatures could be entombed in sediment during the Flood processes……..i.e. most of the ‘terrestrial dead’ just floated away on the surface of the waters and were ‘recycled’ by various saprophytes…..!!!!
…you’re also conveniently ignoring my new radiometric dating evidence…….
.......and I’m also waiting in unbridled anticipation for Son Goku to provide some more obtuse mathematics…….that provides further ‘proof’ that 'Early Man' practiced (almost) perpetual virginity!!!!:eek: 0 -
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pH wrote:Those poor trilobites ... what did they do?
They were simply 'in the wrong place at the wrong time'........
........as 'bottom dwelling low-mobility' sea creatures, they fared worst from the ‘collateral damage’ of the Flood, by being buried in the settling sediments that the Flood process created all over the Earth.......and which rapidly 'set' to form Sedimentary Rocks!!!:D
I am looking at five beautiful Trilobites fossils as I write this......they are fully 3D and even their eyes are perfectly preserved!!!!:D
They were obviously overwhelmed and rapidly smothered by gently falling sediment .......and no great pressures were applied from above during the lithification process!!!:D0
This discussion has been closed.
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