The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 1)

2Scoops

J C wrote:

Yea, it's De ja vu allright........me giving comprehensive reasoned answers to EVERY question put to me.......

Hee-hee! Comprehensive? No. Reasoned? No. Answers? No. EVERY? No.

Stop speaking in riddles…..and give me an example of what you are talking about!!

Zombrex

J C wrote:

Long on claims…..but short on references (or even ONE example)!!!!!

Stop speaking in riddles…..and give me an example of what you are talking about!!:D

I've given you the references and the papers (3 times actually), you ignored them and now you are apparently pretending that you never saw them in the first place.

I can give them to you again, but is there much point?

J C wrote:

Evolution NEVER happened Wicknight…..it is a figment of your imagination!!!:D

Just like the papers and references I never gave to you JC? They were figments of my imagination as well were they :rolleyes:

More nonsense

J C

Wicknight wrote:

I've given you the references and the papers (3 times actually), you ignored them and now you are apparently pretending that you never saw them in the first place.

I can give them to you again, but is there much point?

I mustn't have been very impressed with whatever you provided at the time......

Wicknight wrote:

Just like the papers and references I never gave to you JC? They were figments of my imagination as well were they :rolleyes:

More nonsense

.....you're still talking in riddles ......and providing no 'evidence'......


Is it the one about the bug that half-eats womens' Nylons........ or knickers .....or something???

......that isn't evidence for Evolution ........just opportunism!!!:D

Scofflaw

J C wrote:

.....you're still talking in riddles ......and providing no 'evidence'......


Is it the one about the bug that half-eats womens' Nylons........ or knickers .....or something???

......that isn't evidence for Evolution ........just opportunism!!!:D

Hilarious...would this be an attempt to gloss over the frame-shift mutation in a known bacterium that produced an new enzyme with the novel ability to digest nylon - thus disproving the Creationist claim that mutations can't add new information to the genome?

I'm surprised you choose to mention it, even dismissively, considering your utter failure to deal with it last time.

cordially,
Scofflaw

robindch

A group of christians is to leave their Canadian town, jobs and school in order to avoid being "indoctrinated" with reality:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=57199

"We don't agree with the emphasis on evolution, which we consider false" said a man.

J C

Scofflaw wrote:

Hilarious...would this be an attempt to gloss over the frame-shift mutation in a known bacterium that produced an new enzyme with the novel ability to digest nylon - thus disproving the Creationist claim that mutations can't add new information to the genome?

I'm surprised you choose to mention it, even dismissively, considering your utter failure to deal with it last time.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Would that be the bacterial VARIANT that uses (defective) PRE-EXISTING Intelligently Designed genetic information to 'digest' tights and knickers?????:D:D

J C

robindch wrote:

A group of christians is to leave their Canadian town, jobs and school in order to avoid being "indoctrinated" with reality:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=57199

"We don't agree with the emphasis on evolution, which we consider false" said a man.

I quote from the above interesting article:-
"Fifteen Christian families from a tiny community of only about 1,300 people are making plans to leave their homes and work behind so that their children will not be forced by the Canadian government to attend "sanctioned" schools where evolution is taught.

A report in the Vancouver Sun said provincial officials have threatened the families with legal action, including the potential loss of their children to state control, if they do not abide by the mandatory education curriculum.. ..........

(Menonite) survivors often went into hiding and from 1575 to 1850, membership grew primarily by parents passing their beliefs to their children. Today more than a million people around the world claim the Christian beliefs of Mennonites in about 60 countries."

I'd be interested in more info from BC

Scofflaw

J C wrote:

Would that be the bacterial VARIANT that uses PRE-EXISTING Intelligently Designed genetic information to digest tights and knickers?????

No, JC, because if you remember, this is a frameshift mutation. That means that one base pair has been added into the DNA, so that all the subsequent triplets are read differently:

TTT-GGG-CCC-TTT-AAA

could go to:

TTT-AGG-GCC-CTT-TAA

as the result of the insertion of the extra A(denosine) there. The A is entirely new, and has the knock-on effect of changing the reading of all the subsequent triplets. In this case, the new reading produces a novel enzyme that digests nylon - not very efficiently, it's true, but given the amount of nylon (tights and knickers, as you so elegantly put it) in the world, and the lack of other things digesting it, it's pretty useful.

So, to recap - mutation -> insertion of new information -> new enzyme -> evidence of the falsity of Creationist claim. Pretty straightforward, really.

Now, your counter-claims are, I think, that the DNA was designed to be read that way to produce nylon digestion when it became useful, by shifting the reading. Pity that ignores the intrusive mutation that does the work, and the fact that this is not a very good nylon-digesting enzyme, as we might expect for something arising by accident rather than design. Now it exists, natural selection will presumably refine it. Of course, the mutant bacterium remains a variant of the original - no new species here - so if you'd prefer to use that cop-out, work away.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw

Meanwhile, away from the cartoon drawings of Creationism, real life continues to get ever more complex. The Wolbachia parasite, found in 70% of the world's invertebrates, may be in the process of becoming a cell organelle like mitochondria. The genome of Drosophila has been found to contain the entire Wolbachia genome. This is very much like what is thought to have happened with our own mitochondria, and plant chloroplasts, where the majority of the organelle's DNA resides in the host cell nucleus and the organelle retains only sufficient DNA for a few necessary functions.

cordially,
Scofflaw

BrianCalgary

robindch wrote:

A group of christians is to leave their Canadian town, jobs and school in order to avoid being "indoctrinated" with reality:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=57199

"We don't agree with the emphasis on evolution, which we consider false" said a man.

Just to expand on th epartial quote that Robion gave. It is more than evolution, it includes morality that is taught by the government.
'We don't agree with the emphasis on evolution, which we consider false; we don't like the morality standards; and we don't like the acceptance of alternative lifestyles," he said.

Also in Canada it is common in the Provinces of Alberta, and British Columbia and Ontario to home school your kids. The parents use the curriculum and teach it themselves and teh kids write exams which are sent for marking by a Ministry of Education approved adjudicator.

Quebec, which is the most secular and least religious of all the provincial jurisdictions in the country are making an attempt to exact their control on families and to deny them their religion. We went through this similar type of idealogy with regard to residential schools in Western canada where children were taken from their homes to be educated in what the government deemed right. This included punishment for speaking the native language.

I would say that the story is not complete and that the issue is not evolution, but a stance on who should be educating our kids and with what worldview?

J C

Scofflaw wrote:

Meanwhile, away from the cartoon drawings of Creationism, real life continues to get ever more complex. The Wolbachia parasite, found in 70% of the world's invertebrates, may be in the process of becoming a cell organelle like mitochondria. The genome of Drosophila has been found to contain the entire Wolbachia genome. This is very much like what is thought to have happened with our own mitochondria, and plant chloroplasts, where the majority of the organelle's DNA resides in the host cell nucleus and the organelle retains only sufficient DNA for a few necessary functions.

cordially,
Scofflaw

......just another VARIANT of host / bacterial parasite interaction........similar processes occur with viruses all the time.........

.........so there is no need for anybody to 'wet their pants' with excitemant on this one ........besides, wet pants might only encourage the Nylon Bug!!!!!:D

.......and we wouldn't want that.....would we????


Scofflaw
No, JC, because if you remember, this is a frameshift mutation. That means that one base pair has been added into the DNA, so that all the subsequent triplets are read differently:

TTT-GGG-CCC-TTT-AAA

could go to:

TTT-AGG-GCC-CTT-TAA

as the result of the insertion of the extra A(denosine) there. The A is entirely new, and has the knock-on effect of changing the reading of all the subsequent triplets. In this case, the new reading produces a novel enzyme that digests nylon - not very efficiently, it's true, but given the amount of nylon (tights and knickers, as you so elegantly put it) in the world, and the lack of other things digesting it, it's pretty useful

I once heard of a washing machine like that.......it apparently went on the 'blink'.........and until it was replaced........the misfortunate owner hadn't a descent pair of knickers.......the machine 'chewed' holes in them, every time she tried to wash them!!!!!:D :eek:

So it is with the Nylon Bug.......a DEFECT in it causes it to 'nibble' on all kinds of Nylon apparel!!!!!:eek:

Scofflaw

J C wrote:

......just another VARIANT of host / bacterial parasite interaction........similar processes occur with viruses all the time.........

.........so there is no need for anybody to 'wet their knickers' with excitemant on this one ........besides, wet knickers might only encourage the Nylon Bug!!!!!:D

.......and we wouldn't want that.....would we????


Scofflaw
No, JC, because if you remember, this is a frameshift mutation. That means that one base pair has been added into the DNA, so that all the subsequent triplets are read differently:

TTT-GGG-CCC-TTT-AAA

could go to:

TTT-AGG-GCC-CTT-TAA

as the result of the insertion of the extra A(denosine) there. The A is entirely new, and has the knock-on effect of changing the reading of all the subsequent triplets. In this case, the new reading produces a novel enzyme that digests nylon - not very efficiently, it's true, but given the amount of nylon (tights and knickers, as you so elegantly put it) in the world, and the lack of other things digesting it, it's pretty useful

I once heard of a washing machine like that.......it apparently went on the 'blink'.........and until it was replaced........the misfortunate owner hadn't a descent pair of knickers.......the machine 'chewed' them up, every time she tried to wash them!!!!!:D :eek:

So it is with the Nylon Bug.......a DEFECT in it causes it to 'nibble' on all kinds of Nylon apparel!!!!!:eek:

Aha! The classic 'mad babbling' defence. The tools of reason and evidence are clearly useless here! Once again you have foiled us with the clever refutations and witty ways of "Creation Science".

I have to say I do particularly like the idea of 'descent (sic) knickers', although I would have thought they are the opposite of 'decent'.

cordially,
Scofflaw

J C

Scofflaw wrote:

Once again you have foiled us with the clever refutations and witty ways of "Creation Science".

Who says Science can't be fun????!!!

Scofflaw wrote:

I have to say I do particularly like the idea of 'descent (sic) knickers', although I would have thought they are the opposite of 'decent'.

I did say that she hadn't a decent pair of Knickers........and I don't know how the word 'descent' slipped in.......must be a 'Freudian Slip' on my part!!!!:D

BTW, the story, like all parables, makes the point in relation to the Nylon Bug clearly and devastatingly!!!:D

Galvasean

BrianCalgary wrote:

Just to expand on th epartial quote that Robion gave. It is more than evolution, it includes morality that is taught by the government.
'We don't agree with the emphasis on evolution, which we consider false; we don't like the morality standards; and we don't like the acceptance of [/b]alternative lifestyles," he said.

I know that phrase. Its code for 'gays' isn't it?

One day they will run out of places to hide from things they refuse to accept.

Ekancone

Galvasean wrote:

I know that phrase. Its code for 'gays' isn't it?

One day they will run out of places to hide from things they refuse to accept.

Remember, Jesus loves you all and them. But God ****ing hates em.

Zombrex

robindch wrote:

A group of christians is to leave their Canadian town, jobs and school in order to avoid being "indoctrinated" with reality:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=57199

"We don't agree with the emphasis on evolution, which we consider false" said a man.

LOL .. I wonder at what point they will stop using modern medicine :rolleyes:

Zombrex

J C wrote:

I mustn't have been very impressed with whatever you provided at the time......

Well you ignored it, I suspect because it invalidates your claim that macroevolution has never been observed and is impossible.

I think you mumbled something about how one example isn't enough to convince you that speciation happens, which was rather strange because I gave you a page of them.

:rolleyes:

The Mad Hatter

J C wrote:

Who says Science can't be fun????!!!



I did say that she hadn't a decent pair of Knickers........and I don't know how the word 'descent' slipped in.......must be a 'Freudian Slip' on my part!!!!:D

BTW, the story, like all parables, makes the point in relation to the Nylon Bug clearly and devastatingly!!!:D

Um, it was completely incoherent. Something about a washing machine? I don't see how that relates to evolution.

robindch

brian wrote:

Just to expand on the partial quote that Robion gave. It is more than evolution, it includes morality that is taught by the government.

It was partial coz this is the creationism thread and I only included the few words relevant to creationism (which was the first thing they mentioned, after all!)

Reading what that man said again, what he's actually saying (which you agree with, Brian?) is quite interesting. Not only do this group not want their children to hear that gay people should be tolerated, they also want nobody else in their community to tolerate them either.

I politely suggest that Canada is too liberal a place for these humans to live and that they should move to one or other of the countries in the Middle East or Africa where the homophobia they crave is available at a state-sponsored level.

.

Ekancone

robindch wrote:

It was partial coz this is the creationism thread and I only included the few words relevant to creationism (which was the first thing they mentioned, after all!)

Reading what that man said again, what he's actually saying (which you agree with, Brian?) is quite interesting. Not only do this group not want their children to hear that gay people should be tolerated, they also want nobody else in their community to tolerate them either.

I politely suggest that Canada is too liberal a place for these humans to live and that they should move to one or other of the countries in the Middle East where the homophobia they crave is available at a state-sponsored level.

hahaha

Zombrex

J C wrote:

I once heard of a washing machine like that.......it apparently went on the 'blink'.........and until it was replaced........the misfortunate owner hadn't a descent pair of knickers.......the machine 'chewed' holes in them, every time she tried to wash them!!!!!:D :eek:

So it is with the Nylon Bug.......a DEFECT in it causes it to 'nibble' on all kinds of Nylon apparel!!!!!:eek:

Scofflaw wrote:

Aha! The classic 'mad babbling' defence.

Yes, JC does seem to use that defense quite a bit. I like the way he calls a mutation a "defect" as if anyone around here would be bothered that a mutation is essentially a mistake in the replication process :rolleyes:

I imagine right now he is searching his favourate Creationists websites trying to find out a response to a frame shift mutation (which clearly is new information and not pre-existing).

By the way the Nilon bug wasn't the observed evidence of macro-evolution I was talking about (I will try and dig up my original post, if I could be bothered), but it is always fun to see JC go flip flopping around trying explain that one.

Scofflaw

J C wrote:

I did say that she hadn't a decent pair of Knickers........and I don't know how the word 'descent' slipped in.......must be a 'Freudian Slip' on my part!!!!:D

BTW, the story, like all parables, makes the point in relation to the Nylon Bug clearly and devastatingly!!!:D

Perhaps, master, you could clarify your parable for us? It looks strikingly like 'blessed are the cheesemakers' to me.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Son Goku

J C wrote:

I did say that she hadn't a decent pair of Knickers........and I don't know how the word 'descent' slipped in.......must be a 'Freudian Slip' on my part!!!!:D

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

J C

Scofflaw wrote:

Perhaps, master, you could clarify your parable for us? It looks strikingly like 'blessed are the cheesemakers' to me.

cordially,
Scofflaw

OK, my 'Spiritual Son', as I have previously said, the systems required to break down materials are relatively simple.......
........a faulty washing machine can tear holes in Nylon clothes .......
...........and a faulty drier could burn holes in them.........
.............and a faulty bacterium can 'eat' holes in them !!!!!:D :eek:

Simple really!!!:D

.....and so, as an example of macro-Evolution.......the Nylon Bug is actually a load of old 'Knickers'!!!!!:D

2Scoops

J C wrote:

As I have previously said, the systems required to break down materials are relatively simple.......
........a faulty washing machine can tear holes in Nylon clothes .......
...........and a faulty drier could burn them.........
.............and a faulty bacterium can 'half-eat' them !!!!!:D :eek:

Simple really!!!:D

That would be a good analogy if not for the fact that there is a world of difference between mechanical damage to nylon, as in the washing machine example, and enzyme digestion of nylon, as in the frameshift mutation adding an entirely novel, non-pre-existing, coding sequence for a nylon-digesting enzyme.:) :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

robindch

The occasional gem turns up from the excellent Fundies Say the Darndest Things!. This one from here, on some guy's recollection of a "stupid video":

Joshjefflawn wrote:

A SEA SPUNGE CAN ONLY CREATE ANOTHER SEA SPUNGE THROUGHT BREADING.

You couldn't invent this stuff.

The Mad Hatter

2Scoops wrote:

That would be a good analogy if not for the fact that there is a world of difference between mechanical damage to nylon, as in the washing machine example, and enzyme digestion of nylon, as in the frameshift mutation adding an entirely novel, non-pre-existing, coding sequence for a nylon-digesting enzyme.:) :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Perhaps the washing machine lives off the nylon as well. Or wait...that'd be life from non-life. Agh! *explodes*

Scofflaw

J C wrote:

OK, my Spiritual Son, as I have previously said, the systems required to break down materials are relatively simple.......
........a faulty washing machine can tear holes in Nylon clothes .......
...........and a faulty drier could burn holes in them.........
.............and a faulty bacterium can 'eat' holes them !!!!!:D :eek:

Simple really!!!:D

.....and so, as an example of macro-Evolution.......the Nylon Bug is all a load of 'Knickers'!!!!!:D

So, tearing holes in your food gives all the nourishment you need, then. Silly me, I've been wasting my time digesting it.

No wonder you weren't scared of the idea of having to "eat" month old sea-steak, when you knew it was just a case of tearing a few holes in it!

JC, I strongly recommend you tear some holes in some fish. It would do you the world of good, apparently.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw

robindch wrote:

The occasional gem turns up from the excellent Fundies Say the Darndest Things!. This one from here, on some guy's recollection of a "stupid video":You couldn't invent this stuff.

Well, you couldn't, and I couldn't, but I know someone who can...

cordially,
Scofflaw

J C

2Scoops wrote:

That would be a good analogy if not for the fact that there is a world of difference between mechanical damage to nylon, as in the washing machine example, and enzyme digestion of nylon, as in the frameshift mutation adding an entirely novel, non-pre-existing, coding sequence for a nylon-digesting enzyme.:) :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

The point is that they are all DESTRUCTIVE forces.........and destructive forces are simpler (often vastly simpler) forces..........than constructive forces!!!:D

A 'frameshift mutation' is similar to changing gears in a car......and is itself a form of tightly specified complexity.........the Nylon Bug seems to have 'changed gear' ........but with some sand in the gearbox!!!!

It is all part of the outworking of the enormous pre-existing genetic potential of all living organisms!!!!:D