The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 1)

wolfsbane

Scofflaw wrote:

Not at all. You could believe, and say in public, that the poor deserve no help because they're lazy, while actually helping the poor in all your spare time. The theory you put forward is not "compassionate conservatism" even though you are a compassionate conservative.

cordially,
Scofflaw

But that is not against what I argued. False professions of anything do not rule out the existence of the real thing. Compassionate conservatism is widely articulated. Sure, there may be Thatcherites in word who would turn out to be compassionate conservatives in reality, but that does not mean either brand does not exist. There are liberals and there are fascist liberals - and both their ideologies.

Certainly not all fascist liberals would agree they are intolerant. Maybe they would be embarrassed to be known as persecutors - but they happily do it on the sly. Others are quite bold in their crusade against heresy.

Galvasean

Son Goku wrote:

Calculations say it hit the Earth 65 million years ago. Are you saying the flood happened 65 million years ago?

Somehow I don't think Noah and his boat would have survived the impact.
Of course there are alternative theories:

Scofflaw

J C wrote:

Always glad to spread a little happiness!!!:D

However, the so-called 'beneficial adaptation' of the 'Nylon Bug' is due to the 'leveraging' of the EXISTING massive information base......and NOT due to the introduction of new information.:cool:

Any time you need reminding:

Old sequence: GGG-TTT-CCC-AAA-TTT....codes for enzyme X

New sequence: GGG-ATT-TCC-CAA-ATT-T....codes for nylon enzyme

The 'A' in bold there is the mutation, which is an addition to the sequence, and shifts the rest of the code. The frameshift is the result of the mutation, but is not the mutation itself.

And so we see that the nylon enzyme is due to the introduction of new information, directly contrary to what JC says above. Further, the ability to turn nylon into food is obviously beneficial to the bacterium, since it gains a hugely abundant and unexploited food supply. Since this beneficial ability is the result of the mutation, it seems very silly to call it a "so-called beneficial mutation" as JC does above. It's a mutation, it's beneficial, it's new information - all directly contradicting JC's claims above.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw

wolfsbane wrote:

But that is not against what I argued. False professions of anything do not rule out the existence of the real thing. Compassionate conservatism is widely articulated. Sure, there may be Thatcherites in word who would turn out to be compassionate conservatives in reality, but that does not mean either brand does not exist. There are liberals and there are fascist liberals - and both their ideologies.

Nor do false professions prove the existence of a thing. What you cited were compassionate conservatives. You need to actually cite "compassionate conservatism", and show that it is both "compassionate" and "conservatism".

wolfsbane wrote:

Certainly not all fascist liberals would agree they are intolerant. Maybe they would be embarrassed to be known as persecutors - but they happily do it on the sly. Others are quite bold in their crusade against heresy.

And, again, because being liberal is the antithesis of being fascist, this too is a false profession. Come on, wolfsbane, you can't have it both ways.

cordially,
Scofflaw

J C

Son Goku wrote:

This is interesting. A group has run a many-body simulation of an asteroid family over several million years and found that one element of the group collided with Earth 65 million years ago. Exactly matching fossil records which according to dating methods say dinosaurs died out 65 million years ago.

Two completely independant sources of information have both offered the exact same date. How can creationists explain this sensibly (as in not saying nonsense like "It is the arrogance of man").

....but they WEREN'T "two independent sources of information" .....the Group ran a SIMULATION of what they THOUGHT happened!!!:D

.....it was a SIMULATION Son.......just a SIMULATION!!!:eek:

J C

Galvasean wrote:

Wait, we imagined all the fossils now? And here I was thinking that God made the fossils and planted them to test our faith.
Nonetheless I'm glad horrible things like this never existed.
:eek:

The fossils exist allright.......what you imagined was that the dead things lay there for millions of years as they were gradually covered up by silt and eventually fossilised........rather than being catastrophically buried and rapidly fossilised during the Flood!!!!:eek:

...........and the 'horrible thing' was a member of the Crocodile Kind ......by the look of it!!!!:)

With Love,

J C

wolfsbane

Scofflaw wrote:

Orchestrating the rise of the Roman Empire hardly strikes me as restrained. Particularly since I would have thought any other setup would have done just as well.

cordially,
Scofflaw

JC and I differ on the meaning of free-will and predestination. But to answer your point, one can imagine many other scenarios that would have produced the same result, Mary and Joseph in Bethelem for the birth of Jesus. But everyone of them would have had to have had the same virtual infinity of Sovereignly-directed actions. The whole scene had to be in place, for not only the birth-place but every other element had to be there for prophesy to be fulfilled. The Slaughter of the innocents, for example. The flight to Egypt. The Roman practise of crucifixion.

More widely, the Pax Romana and the common language (Greek) ensured relative safety and rapid communication for the gospel.

Then also, the timescale prophesied for the coming of Messiah led to that time:
Daniel 9:24 “ Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.
25 “ Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.

None of this was liable to the whim of man. Every thought and action of man, every act of nature was directed by God to that end. Evil men acted according to their desires, but God overuled so that their choices served His plan.

dan719

Anyone else think god should have just created a copy of the sims and got on with it?

J C

Galvasean wrote:

Somehow I don't think Noah and his boat would have survived the impact.

As the Asteroid DIDN'T score a 'direct hit' on the Ark or in it's vicinity it survived!!!:D

Galvasean wrote:

Of course there are alternative theories:

All of the Dinosaurs that died out, did so AFTER the Flood.....and the Crocodiles and the Rhino are, of course, STILL around!!!:)

The Marsupials left the Ark, spread over the World .....and they survive in BOTH America and Australia TODAY!!!!:D

Galvasean wrote:

The Asteroid probably triggered the Flood.......and you have the cartoon to prove it........but it wasn't THAT close to the Ark!!!!!:D

.....and it didn't wipe out all of the Dinosaurs.

With Love

J C

wolfsbane

J C wrote:

You are confusing prophecy with predestination!!!:D

Prophecy yes, predestination no!!!

The problem with an 'omnipotent pre-destination' is that God becomes somewhat 'responsible' for both the evil and and the good in the world.....which is perilously close to 'dualism'!!!!:eek:

Equally, the need to "go forth and teach all nations" becomes a little pointless if God will do it all anyhow!!!:D
I understand that 'ultra-Calvanists' don't engage in missionary activity for this very reason.

Yes, the confusion comes from a misunderstanding of free-will. Calvinists hold that man's will is free in the sense that he chooses to do evil - no-one forces him. But we say he is not able to choose otherwise, for his choice depends on his heart (nature). His evil heart will always choose to reject God. Only if God gives him a new heart (nature) wil he choose to love and serve God.

As to the cause and effect of gospel preaching, God has appointed the ends - the salvation of the elect. He has also appointed the means - the preaching of the gospel to all mankind. We are not allowed to dismiss the means and still look for the ends. Ultra-Calvinists distort the truth because they rely on human reasoning more than God's revealed word. Calvinists stick to the word. That's why so many missionaries and preachers were Calvinists - William Carey, C.H Spurgeon, for example.

dan719

J C wrote:

[/B]
As the Asteroid DIDN'T score a 'direct hit' on the Ark or in it's vicinity it survived!!!:D

[/B]

The Dinosaurs died out SUBSEQUENT to the Flood.....and the Crocodiles and the Rhino are STILL around!!!:)

The Marsupials left the Ark, spread over the World .....and survive in BOTH America and Australia TODAY!!!!:D



The Asteroid probably triggered the Flood.......and you have the cartoon to prove it........but it WASN'T that close to the Ark!!!!!:D

jC are you not a young earth creationist- you know earth is only four thousand years old kinda thing. Because this asteroid struck sixty five million years ago. which according to creationists is about 65 million give or take 4000 years before god even got started. How strange.

Scofflaw

J C wrote:

....but they WEREN'T "two independent sources of information" .....the Group ran a SIMULATION of what they THOUGHT happened!!!:D

.....it was a SIMULATION Son.......just a SIMULATION!!!:eek:

A simulation which involves the mathematical tracing of possible trajectories. It's rocket science, of course!

Son's point is that the mathematical tracing of possible trajectories on the one hand, and the dating of geological deposits from the impact on the other, are separate and independent methods.

cordially,
Scofflaw

J C

Scofflaw wrote:

And so we see that the nylon enzyme is due to the introduction of new information, directly contrary to what JC says above. Further, the ability to turn nylon into food is obviously beneficial to the bacterium, since it gains a hugely abundant and unexploited food supply. Since this beneficial ability is the result of the mutation, it seems very silly to call it a "so-called beneficial mutation" as JC does above. It's a mutation, it's beneficial, it's new information - all directly contradicting JC's claims above.

Your enthusiasm at the discovery of the 'half-hearted munching' of the 'Knicker Eating Bug' is indeed admirable.
However, it is only 'beneficial' in the sense that a Wiper Switch that is hit by a hammer can 'beneficially' turn on the lights and the radio instead of the wipers!!!!:eek:
The 'Knicker Eater' is also clearly damaged, but doing something novel......just like the busted Wiper Switch!!!:D


With loving Thoughts

J C

Son Goku

J C wrote:

....but they WEREN'T "two independent sources of information" .....the Group ran a SIMULATION of what they THOUGHT happened!!!:D

.....it was a SIMULATION Son.......just a SIMULATION!!!:eek:

Hmm, a few questions if I may squire.

First:
Where is the crater from this impact?
(I think you've hit a snag here you don't realise, if you read back over the thread.)

Second:
Why does nobody in any historical document mention a multi-TeraJoule explosion?
I would imagine an explosion that reduces a region the size of france to molten slag would be noticable.

Third:
Regardless of when it occured, conservation of momentum alone would require this impact to result in a nuclear winter lasting several hundred thousand years? According to your timeline this would require it lasting into the present day. How do you explain the fact that we aren't in a nuclear winter?

And finally:
Why do you only partially trust the simulation? You accept the prediction of an asteriod impact, but not the date of the impact. Why so?
Also what could be possibly be wrong with a simulation of an n-body gravitational system using Newton's theory of gravity (with small modifcations)? Are you questioning the numerical artifacts or Newton's gravity itself. I've some experience with these simulations, so I'd like to hear your criticisms.

J C

dan719 wrote:

jC are you not a young earth creationist- you know earth is only four thousand years old kinda thing. Because this asteroid struck sixty five million years ago. which according to creationists is about 65 million give or take 4000 years before god even got started. How strange.

The solution to your dilemma is that anything from 1 to 500 Million 'Evolutionist Years' is only about 4,000 REAL years!!!:D

Love

J C

Scofflaw

J C wrote:

Your enthusiasm at the discovery of the 'half-munching' of the 'Knicker Eating Bug' is indeed admirable'.
However, it is only 'beneficial' in the sense that a Wiper Switch that is hit by a hammer can 'beneficially' turn on the lights and the radio instead of the wipers!!!!:eek:
The 'Knicker Eater' is also clearly damaged, but doing something novel......just like the busted Wiper Switch!!!:D

The term 'damaged' is only appropriate for a novel action like this if we assume that the original action was perfect, and the example you offer chosen to support your argument, because it simply swaps one existing feature for another, which is not beneficial. Your argument, once again, is distorted, because you are offering as an example of something beneficial something that clearly isn't.

If your car, for some reason, developed a 'fault' which doubled its mileage per gallon, would you seek to replicate the fault in any new car you bought?

J C wrote:

With loving Thoughts

J C

Ew.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw

J C wrote:

The solution to your dilemma is that anything from 1 to 500 Million 'Evolutionist Years' = about 4,000 REAL years!!!:D

Which would still make the Earth 4.1 billion years old...is arithmetic not your forte?

amused,
Scofflaw

Galvasean

J C wrote:

.....and it didn't wipe out all of the Dinosaurs.

With Love

J C

I see you are learning my friend. The asteroid did not wipe out all of the dinosaurs. To this day we still have roughly 9,500 species of dinosaur alive and well. We call them 'birds'.

Zombrex

J C wrote:

However, the so-called 'beneficial adaptation' of the 'Nylon Bug' is due to the 'leveraging' of the EXISTING massive information base......and NOT due to the introduction of new information.:cool:

Wow, contradicting yourself in the very same sentence ... is that a new record for JC

What "leverages" the existing information JC? Thats right, new information introduced by the mutation!!

If the new information wasn't there then the existing information would not shift and there would be no leveraging.:rolleyes: :cool:

bonkey

I think JC's level of credibility can be accurately summed up by his dismissal of a scientific model as "just a SIMULATION!!!", where only a few posts later he can make the comment that "you have the cartoon to prove it".

bonkey

Son Goku wrote:

Hmm, a few questions if I may squire.

First:
Where is the crater from this impact?
(I think you've hit a snag here you don't realise, if you read back over the thread.)

Second:
Why does nobody in any historical document mention a multi-TeraJoule explosion?
I would imagine an explosion that reduces a region the size of france to molten slag would be noticable.

Third:
Regardless of when it occured, conservation of momentum alone would require this impact to result in a nuclear winter lasting several hundred thousand years? According to your timeline this would require it lasting into the present day. How do you explain the fact that we aren't in a nuclear winter?

And finally:
Why do you only partially trust the simulation? You accept the prediction of an asteriod impact, but not the date of the impact. Why so?
Also what could be possibly be wrong with a simulation of an n-body gravitational system using Newton's theory of gravity (with small modifcations)? Are you questioning the numerical artifacts or Newton's gravity itself. I've some experience with these simulations, so I'd like to hear your criticisms.

Dude...I can answer all of those for JC. I can't do the smiley thing, though. I lack that talent, but anyway....

Physics were different back then.

See. Easy. Now all science-based arguments are totally invalid.

J C

Scofflaw wrote:

Which would still make the Earth 4.1 billion years old...is arithmetic not your forte?

The solution to your dilemma is that anything that is supposedly 1 to 14 Billion 'Evolutionist Years' is less than 10,000 REAL years!!!:eek:


Wolfsbane
Ultra-Calvinists distort the truth because they rely on human reasoning more than God's revealed word.

God is a God of moderation……..and NEITHER ‘Ultra-Calvinism’ nor ‘Ultra-Armenianism’ are correct.

The risk that ‘Ultra-Calvinism’ runs is Dualism and Fatalism…….because an omniscient God exercising total omnipotent predestination would effectively remove the free will of His subjects and He would therefore be responsible for the evil as well as the good in the World.
Preaching the Word of God would be pointless in such a scenario, because God would save whomsoever He wished anyhow.
This would be in direct contravention of the Great Commission of Jesus Christ to “go forth and teach all nations".
Equally, in a situation where God exercised total omniscient and predetermined control, no meaningful loving relationship would be possible between God and Man because we would be mere Automatons slavishly “dancing to God’s predestined tune”.


The risk that ‘Ultra-Armenianism’ runs is Deism and Isolationism…….because a God who remains aloof from His subjects, leaving them totally to their own devices to exercise their free will unhindered, wouldn’t a personal God at all.
Praying to such a disinterested God would be pointless, because a Deist God wouldn’t / couldn't answer prayers.
This would be in direct contravention of God’s many direct interventions in the World, including His most dramatic entry as God Incarnate, Jesus Christ and His promise to be with His Church until the end of time.
Equally, in a situation where God was totally aloof from His Creation, no meaningful loving relationship would be possible between God and Man because of our isolation from Him.

The true position is obviously somewhere in-between ‘Ultra-Calvinism’ and ‘Ultra-Armenianism’…….with a continuous interaction between God’s voluntarily restrained sovereign omnipotence and Mankind’s voluntarily restrained free will.

Wolfsbane has elegantly described this situation as follows:-
“God has appointed the ends - the salvation of the elect. He has also appointed the means - the preaching of the gospel to all mankind. We are not allowed to dismiss the means and still look for the ends.”

The import of this situation is that God doesn’t always get His way…..as the Fall and the presence of sin and evil in the World testifies.

Indeed, God has voluntarily determined that His omnipotence can only be fully exercised in tandem with Humans voluntarily exercising their free will in accordance with His expressed wishes.

The reverse also holds true….that true Human freedom can only be achieved by people voluntarily living in accordance with God’s Word…..both in this World and in the next.

God is neither a ‘control freak’ using His sovereign omnipotence to oppress His Creation ……nor is He a ‘cold fish’ standing aloof from Mankind.
He is a loving God who is deeply interested in the welfare and eternal destiny of EVERY Human Being.

Jesus eloquently described God's abiding interest in our welfare thus in Mt 10:29-31 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.

He lays life and death as the choice before us...... and all He asks is that we use our free will to choose life…..and to love Him and believe on Him.

Jesus came, not to condemn sinners……but to save us……without infringing our free will to choose to be saved.........or not to be saved:cool:

God knows everyone who is going to be saved……..because He knows everyone who is going to use their free will to believe on Jesus Christ…….and thus to be saved!!!!
…..BUT God does not cause (or predestine) each person to be saved.

……our salvation is the point where God’s omnipotence and Man’s free will MEET…………and both parties VOLUNTARILY exercise their powers ......to save and to believe respectively !!!!

………it is what God has always wanted from His relationship with Mankind……..that we FREELY love Him and believe on Him.

PS Because God has VOLUNTARILY restrained His omnipotence, He retains the discretion to act omnipotently any time that He so wishes.......and He therefore can perform miracles, answer prayers or move in righteous judgement, if He chooses to do so in accordance with His sovereign will.

Lovingly,
J C:)

Scofflaw

J C wrote:

The solution to your dilemma is that anything that is supposedly 1 to 14 Billion 'Evolutionist Years' is less than 10,000 REAL years!!!:eek:

Mirabile dictu! Actually, I thought that might be the solution.

cordially,
Scofflaw

wolfsbane

Scofflaw wrote:

Nor do false professions prove the existence of a thing. What you cited were compassionate conservatives. You need to actually cite "compassionate conservatism", and show that it is both "compassionate" and "conservatism".



And, again, because being liberal is the antithesis of being fascist, this too is a false profession. Come on, wolfsbane, you can't have it both ways.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Yes, I agree, facist liberalism is a false profession - but only because it is practised by facists posing as liberals. But compassionate conservatism is not so. It is a brand of conservatism which restrains the market in the interest of the public good, especially the good of the needy. There is no antithesis involved. Laissez-faire is not a fundamental of conservatism.

Compassionate conservatism is a political philosophy that stresses using traditionally Conservative techniques and concepts in order to improve the general welfare of society.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compassionate_conservatism

J C

Scofflaw wrote:

Mirabile dictu! Actually, I thought that might be the solution.

You ARE learning !!!:D


Son Goku
a few questions if I may squire.

First:
Where is the crater from this impact?

There are MANY large impact craters across the Globe……and they nearly all occurred during the Flood process and/or it's aftermath.


Son Goku
Second:
Why does nobody in any historical document mention a multi-TeraJoule explosion?
I would imagine an explosion that reduces a region the size of france to molten slag would be noticable.

The Flood is recorded in the Bible and in hundreds of accounts by native peoples all over the World!!!:D


Son Goku
Third:
Regardless of when it occured, conservation of momentum alone would require this impact to result in a nuclear winter lasting several hundred thousand years? According to your timeline this would require it lasting into the present day. How do you explain the fact that we aren't in a nuclear winter?

You exaggerate the effects………an impact that would “result in a nuclear winter lasting several hundred thousand years” would be sufficient to push the Earth out of its orbit and would kill ALL (macrofauna) life on Earth!!!!:D


Son Goku
And finally:
Why do you only partially trust the simulation? You accept the prediction of an asteriod impact, but not the date of the impact. Why so?

A simulation is only as accurate as its data and assumptions…….and the date of an asteroid impact cannot be determined by it’s trajectory !!!!:eek:


Scofflaw

If your car, for some reason, developed a 'fault' which doubled its mileage per gallon, would you seek to replicate the fault in any new car you bought?

I would…….but the chance of it happening spontaneously is ZERO.

It is entirely a product of your fevered imagination …..just like macro-evolution, actually!!!!:D


Galvasean
The asteroid did not wipe out all of the dinosaurs. To this day we still have roughly 9,500 species of dinosaur alive and well. We call them 'birds'.

Whatever!!!

……were they called ‘birdeosaurs’?????

......and you forgot to include the 'Crock' and the 'Rhino'!!!!:eek:


Wicknight
What "leverages" the existing information JC? Thats right, new information introduced by the mutation!!

If the new information wasn't there then the existing information would not shift and there would be no leveraging

The frame shift ‘leverages’ the EXISTING information base…….and if the existing information base wasn't present, there would be nothing to 'leverage'!!!!:D


bonkey
I think JC's level of credibility can be accurately summed up by his dismissal of a scientific model as "just a SIMULATION!!!", where only a few posts later he can make the comment that "you have the cartoon to prove it".
It WASN’T a scientific model…….it was JUST a simulation…….

…….and the cartoon was provided by Galvasean…….to whom all queries, as to its scientific accuracy, should be directed!!!:eek:

Passionately,

J C:D

Son Goku

J C wrote:

Son Goku
Second:
Why does nobody in any historical document mention a multi-TeraJoule explosion?
I would imagine an explosion that reduces a region the size of France to molten slag would be noticeable.

The Flood is recorded in the Bible and in hundreds of accounts by native peoples all over the World!!!:D

I'm talking about the giant hemisphere of raw light and molten material produced by such explosions. A living eye witness would definitely notice a "new sun" appear in the sky and watch it rip open the ozone layer and deposited billions of tons of molten rock into the atmosphere. Then proceed to see massive magnitude 12 earthquakes shake the earth's surface. In case this eye-witness was exceptionally difficult to rouse, this would be followed by tons of molten material being deposited in thousand Kelvin packets all over the planet.
It's the kind of thing you'd probably take a fleeting glance at.

However in the Bible they only talk about some rain and a flood. Why is none of the above described if there was a asteroid impact?

You exaggerate the effects………an impact that would “result in a nuclear winter lasting several hundred thousand years” would be sufficient to push the Earth out of its orbit and would kill ALL (macrofauna) life on Earth!!!!

Wrong. A five kilometre asteroid is more than sufficient for a nuclear winter. Pushing the Earth out of its orbit is a task only stars are capable of. Even if you hit earth with something large enough to destroy it, the debris would settle back into Earth's original orbit.

A simulation is only as accurate as its data and assumptions…….and the date of an asteroid impact cannot be determined by it’s trajectory !!!!

This is a very bad mistake. Of course it can, it's basic Lagrangian mechanics. That's an exceptionally silly thing to say.

J C

Son Goku wrote:

I'm talking about the giant hemisphere of raw light and molten material produced by such explosions. A living eye witness would definitely notice a "new sun" appear in the sky and watch it rip open the ozone layer and deposited billions of tons of molten rock into the atmosphere. Then proceed to see massive magnitude 12 earthquakes shake the earth's surface. In case this eye-witness was exceptionally difficult to rouse, this would be followed by tons of molten material being deposited in thousand Kelvin packets all over the planet.
It's the kind of thing you'd probably take a fleeting glance at.

....and IF it ever occurred, it would be the LAST thing that you would see......because it would kill you!!!:D

Son Goku wrote:

A five kilometre asteroid is more than sufficient for a nuclear winter. Pushing the Earth out of its orbit is a task only stars are capable of. Even if you hit earth with something large enough to destroy it, the debris would settle back into Earth's original orbit.

....such an impact would destroy the Earth and as the Earth is still very much with us .......it never happened !!!:D

Any postulated single explosion that would kill all life on Earth would be so massive that it would destroy the Earth as well......sledge hammers and nuts spring to mind!!!:D

Son Goku wrote:

This is a very bad mistake. Of course it can, it's basic Lagrangian mechanics. That's an exceptionally silly thing to say.

....and your trajectories/dates are only as good as the assumptions that you make.......and your previous assumption that ancient man lived in almost perpetual virginity, doesn't give me much faith in your assumptions about anything else!!!:eek:

With Love

J C:D

Scofflaw

wolfsbane wrote:

Yes, I agree, facist liberalism is a false profession - but only because it is practised by facists posing as liberals. But compassionate conservatism is not so. It is a brand of conservatism which restrains the market in the interest of the public good, especially the good of the needy. There is no antithesis involved. Laissez-faire is not a fundamental of conservatism.

Compassionate conservatism is a political philosophy that stresses using traditionally Conservative techniques and concepts in order to improve the general welfare of society.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compassionate_conservatism

OK - without wishing to get too involved in this particular digression...as you say, laissez-faire is not a fundamental of conservatism. Markets have been restrained under every conservative government (at least partly because they don't work if they aren't). Nor, as far as I'm aware, has any conservative politician ever claimed anything but that conservatism will improve the general welfare of society - rather it is their opponents who claim that conservatism damages society.

Hard to see how this is not moderate conservatism. Also, the "compassionate", by being tagged on, rather suggests that conservatism is not of its nature compassionate...

cordially,
Scofflaw

Son Goku

J C wrote:

....and IF it ever occurred, it would be the LAST thing that you would see......because it would kill you!!!:D

Except for the people who survived it. Why did they not record it? Remeber it would be visible all over the world.

....such an impact would destroy the Earth and as the Earth is still very much with us .......it never happened !!!:D

Any postulated single explosion that would kill all life on Earth would be so massive that it would destroy the Earth as well......sledge hammers and nuts spring to mind!!!:D

No it wouldn't. Earth is much more difficult to destroy than the life that lives on its surface. This is fact, I mean you can't seriously start arguing this.

....and your trajectories/dates are only as good as the assumptions that you make.......

I don't know why you're talking about virgin men, but anyway......
You've already admitted that the trajectory is correct, you can't back out of that. You think the trajectory is good enough, so why not the dates that go with it?
So do you accept the trajectory or not?

Scofflaw

Son Goku wrote:

Except for the people who survived it. Why did they not record it? Remeber it would be visible all over the world.

Most of the witnesses drowned, and Noah couldn't hear it over the hammering?

Son Goku wrote:

This is fact, I mean you can't seriously start arguing this.

I admire your optimism!

cordially,
Scofflaw