The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 1)

5uspect

J C wrote:

Functional Sand, Thinking Puddles and Pondslime Men........Alice in Wonderland wouldn't have a look in........in the 'Wonderland of Evolutionism'!!!!!:eek:

.....Chesterton WAS right when he said :-
"When men cease to believe in God, they do not thereafter believe in nothing, they then become capable of believing ANYTHING!"

With (tough) Love!!!

J C:D

Well if you can wait until tomorrow I will post some scientific papers detailing the role of the moon on the evolution of life (if my institution has access). This one for example. Maybe you could post it for us since you are, apparently, a scientist?

Tzetze

wolfsbane wrote:

Can any of you help me with this?

How significant is the Moon for our existence on Earth? If it did not exist, would that make a big difference to our physical world? If it were twice as near/far from us, would that have a critical effect?

I can think of the romantic effect - and its possible physical consequences - but I'm after the cold science here.

Thanks.

Thanks to the reflectors that the moon missions left on it's surface, laser technology has shown us that the moon is inching further away from us at a rate of ~4cm/year.

There's a fascinating documentary produced by the National Geographic channel "Moon mysteries investigated". If you can find a copy of it.

Scofflaw

wolfsbane wrote:

Yes, I'm sure the Moon's absence/proximity would have had some effect on our physical world - but what I'm trying to find out is would it have massive effect. I'm inclined to think not; that sea-levels, rotation of the core, etc. would just have made a similar set-up with perhaps different areas of the world occupied. But I want to know if there is a scientific case against this.

Maybe that answers bluewolf's query, We're not going for the "it's at just the perfect place for us to exist" argument, are we?

Well, we'd still have tides - about a third as large, since a third of the tide is solar, not lunar. On the other hand, the lunar tides have actually slowed the Earth, so if we had no Moon our current day-length would be about 8 hours - we'd be spinning about 3 times as fast. That, in turn would mean much faster winds - hurricanes every day. In turn, therefore, possibly less stable climate zones - but these are also an effect of the 23.5° precession (wobble) of the Earth, which is also thought to be a result of the giant impact that formed the Moon. If that precession was absent, there would be no seasons. The precession does change, over the 41,000 year Milankovitch Cycle, varying from 22.1° to 24.6° - lower tilt generally seems to correspond to ice ages, so a lower tilt all along might have meant a frozen Earth.

Since the early Moon was much closer to Earth (it's currently receding about 5cm/year), the tides would have been much bigger earlier on - maybe as much as 1000 times greater. Almost certainly this contributed to a huge washout of continental material into the sea, which in turn probably means that life evolved faster - and was more prolific - with the Moon than would otherwise have been the case.

Geologically, it is likely that the collision blew a lot of mantle material - metals in particular - onto the surface of Earth, both from Earth and from the impacting body. Without the impact, most of these would have remained below the level of the crust, and Earth's surface would be a good deal less metal-rich than it is. Earth's magnetic field would also be slightly smaller (the iron core of the impactor is thought to have become part of Earth's core), letting through more high-energy particles from the solar wind.

So, yes, I'd say a massive influence. Without the Moon, and the impact that formed it, life on Earth would have taken a much longer time to develop, and would have been fairly different. Technological civilisation would have been unlikely - iron would have been as common perhaps as tin, and the scarcity of tin was one of the reasons the Bronze Age was aristocratic/heroic.

cordially,
Scofflaw

I didn't think of all that, scofflaw o.o

Scofflaw

bluewolf wrote:

I didn't think of all that, scofflaw o.o

And neither did I, of course! Chunks of it are from my degree, other bits are from the research for a world-building program I wrote...there's a couple bits of original thought in there, but it's mostly book-learning!

modestly,
Scofflaw

5uspect

Scofflaw wrote:

And neither did I, of course! Chunks of it are from my degree, other bits are from the research for a world-building program I wrote...there's a couple bits of original thought in there, but it's mostly book-learning!

modestly,
Scofflaw

And a very impressive bit of learning it is too. You'd almost think it was designed especially for this thread...:p

Scofflaw

Scofflaw wrote:

And neither did I, of course! Chunks of it are from my degree, other bits are from the research for a world-building program I wrote...there's a couple bits of original thought in there, but it's mostly book-learning!

modestly,
Scofflaw

Ah of course, you're a geologist.

I'm just a poor mathsy!

It's interesting to think of how life might have evolved differently, especially with the lack of iron part.

Zombrex

J C wrote:

Wow, an Atheist claiming the gift of prophecy!!!:D

God has great plans for you Wicknight...........plans to prosper you .......and to save you!!!:cool:

Wicknight, your thought processes have become confused and 'wet'!!

.......take a rest.......and be still and know that Jesus Christ is Lord......

...and read the following soothing verses of Scripture :-
Mt 11:28-30 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

With loving thoughts

J C

Can we take it that since you are now only making silly jokes and quoting scripture back to us (seriously, WTF? :rolleyes:) that you concede that -

a) Information can by copied, non-intelligently or otherwise, with error without degrading the information.

b) Frame shift mutations produce new information while causing the existing information to be interpreted differently.

.. and you just are now trying to save your embarrassment.

Great, moving on ...

5uspect

Here is that paper I mentioned last night:

J C

Wicknight wrote:

.......you concede that -

a) Information can by copied, non-intelligently or otherwise, with error without degrading the information.

b) Frame shift mutations produce new information while causing the existing information to be interpreted differently.

a). Information CANNOT be randomly copied, with error, without degrading the information…..

……….and if you don’t believe me …..juts ty redin diss!!!!!.:eek:

b) Frame shift mutations ‘leverage’ existing information by causing the existing information to be interpreted differently.

Could I again point out that such phenomena ARE TO BE EXPECTED in complex living organisms that have been Intelligently Designed to exploit environmental changes and opportunities........but they don’t explain how these organisms supposedly developed their vast information bases along the supposed continuum between Pondscum and Man…….and the bacterium in your example, remained a bacterium after the experiment.

As I have previously said, the Evolutionist fallacy is like someone observing a particularly sophisticated Robot 'adapting' to environmental stimulii.....and then concluding that such 'adaptation' was the mechanism which produced the Robot, in the first place!!!:D


With (tough) Love

J C:D

wolfsbane

5uspect wrote:

Here is that paper I mentioned last night:

That and Scofflaw's comments were the sort of thing I was after.

Many thanks.

5uspect

wolfsbane wrote:

That and Scofflaw's comments were the sort of thing I was after.

Many thanks.

No problem, if you need any of its referenced papers give me a shout and I'll see if I can dig them up.

wolfsbane

Scofflaw said:

Since the early Moon was much closer to Earth (it's currently receding about 5cm/year),

Or, if the Bible is correct, it was always more or less were it is now (5cm. x 6000yrs. = 300m.)

That would make it an ideal constant of reference:
Genesis 1:14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. 16 Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also.

And of course, its position gives us the magnificent solar eclipses. Displays of God's power to some, merely a blip of coincidence to those holding to a multi-billion year time-span.

Scofflaw

wolfsbane wrote:

Or, if the Bible is correct, it was always more or less were it is now (5cm. x 6000yrs. = 300m.)

Of course.

wolfsbane wrote:

That would make it an ideal constant of reference:
Genesis 1:14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. 16 Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also.

Well, in that case, of course, there's no reason for it to be receding even 5cm a year. One would rather expect it to be fixed.

wolfsbane wrote:

And of course, its position gives us the magnificent solar eclipses. Displays of God's power to some, merely a blip of coincidence to those holding to a multi-billion year time-span.

Hmm...rather more an awesome demonstration of the sheer reality of reality, and the magnificence of the cosmos, from my personal point of view. That it happens is coincidental, though, true, which perhaps explains all those partial eclipses...again, why would you need those if the point were a display of God's power? Just to catch out those of us likely to say "hmm, God's aim is a bit off this time"?

cordially,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw

J C wrote:

a). Information CANNOT be copied, non-intelligently, with error, without degrading the information…..

……….and if you don’t believe me …..juts ty redin diss!!!!!.:eek:

Unintentionally hilarious, as often.

laughing,
Scofflaw

Zombrex

J C wrote:

a). Information CANNOT be copied, non-intelligently, with error, without degrading the information…..

It was copied, non-intelligently, with error, without degrading information.

So clearly your (new) assertion isn't true either. Oh well, better luck next time.

J C wrote:

b) Frame shift mutations ‘leverage’ existing information by causing the existing information to be interpreted differently.

By introducing new information...

J C wrote:

Could I again point out that such phenomena ARE TO BE EXPECTED in complex living organisms that have been Intelligently Designed to exploit environmental changes and opportunities

You can point that out if you like. But since Intelligent Design is a made up phenomena that has never been observed or modelled, one can claim anything they like is expected to happen during it. So it would be rather pointless.

It has of course been observed and modelled during the phenomena of Evolution, since Evolution is actually science.

Hivemind187

Orbits?

So God, the ever perfect, is pitching planets around the solar bowling green and says "Ok, try again with Saturn ... No - I can create the universe ins 6 days but the one thing I cant do it proper circles with planets!".

Complete rubbish.

J C

Originally Posted by JC
God has great plans for you Wicknight...........plans to prosper you .......and to save you!!!

……… be still and know that Jesus Christ is Lord.....

...and read the following soothing verses of Scripture :-
Mt 11:28-30 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Wicknight
......making silly jokes and quoting scripture back to us (seriously, WTF?) Scofflaw

Could I ask you, which aspect of God’s providence you have problems with?

……is it His prospering of you or His saving of you?

……or is it His soothing words of comfort for your busy life?


Scofflaw
Since the early Moon was much closer to Earth (it's currently receding about 5cm/year),

Here is some information on the Moon ……including the Lunar Recession:-

http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v20/i4/moon.asp


Scofflaw
there's no reason for it (the Moon) to be receding even 5cm a year. One would rather expect it to be fixed.

The reason why the Moon is (slightly) receding…… is due to tidal friction/gravitational coupling…….and the Law of Conservation of Angular Momentum, means that the Moon MUST currently recede by 5 cm per year, as a result.
The figure of 5 cm is totally insignificant…….when we consider the fact that the Earth-Moon Distance varies from an Apogee of 405,696 Km to a Perigree of 363,104 Km.:D


Hivemind187
So God, the ever perfect, is pitching planets around the solar bowling green and says "Ok, try again with Saturn ... No - I can create the universe ins 6 days but the one thing I cant do it proper circles with planets!".

All planets exhibit somewhat elliptical orbits ………just like everything else in the Universe has also now become IMPERFECT ……due to the Fall.:eek:


Scofflaw
all those partial eclipses...again, why would you need those if the point were a display of God's power? Just to catch out those of us likely to say "hmm, God's aim is a bit off this time"?

The predominance of partial Solar Eclipses is due to the fact that the orbital plane of the Moon is now inclined at about 5 degrees to the orbital plane of the Earth, as well as the differences between the Lunar Apogee and Perigree distances (see above).

However, whenever total eclipses do occur, they give us an awe-inspiring, fleeting glimpse of the once perfect (and still magnificent) Creation of God!!!!:eek: :cool:

Zombrex

J C wrote:

Could I ask you, which aspect of God’s providence you have problems with?

……is it His prospering of you or His saving of you?

……or is it His soothing words of comfort for your busy life?

Well mostly it is you insulting our intelligence, and your own religion BTW, by inappropriately quoting random scripture back to us to hide your embarrassment that you don't know what you are talking about or that your "positive" assertions have been demonstrated to be false.

You seem to treat the Bible text the way a debate team treat the out of time buzzer.

humanji

J C wrote:

However, whenever total eclipses do occur, they give us an awe-inspiring, fleeting glimpse of the once perfect (and still magnificent) Creation of God!!!!

You mean the best thing god can create is a black spot we can't see clearly?

Scofflaw

J C wrote:

Scofflaw
all those partial eclipses...again, why would you need those if the point were a display of God's power? Just to catch out those of us likely to say "hmm, God's aim is a bit off this time"?

The predominance of partial Solar Eclipses is due to the fact that the orbital plane of the Moon is now inclined at about 5 degrees to the orbital plane of the Earth, as well as the differences between the Lunar Apogee and Perigree distances (see above).

However, whenever total eclipses do occur, they give us an awe-inspiring, fleeting glimpse of the once perfect (and still magnificent) Creation of God!!!!:eek: :cool:

Such a pity that partial eclipses have been recorded back as far as human records stretch, eh? Some might take that to suggest that the Moon has never been inclined on any other plane than an imperfect one, but I'm sure you won't. I imagine it's yet another unrecorded effect of the Fall.

cordially,
Scofflaw

J C

humanji wrote:

You mean the best thing god can create is a black spot we can't see clearly?

The Human Being is the pinnacle of God's Creation....but a full Solar Eclipse is indeed an awe inspiring, but transient event!!!:D

J C

Scofflaw wrote:

Such a pity that partial eclipses have been recorded back as far as human records stretch, eh? Some might take that to suggest that the Moon has never been inclined on any other plane than an imperfect one, but I'm sure you won't. I imagine it's yet another unrecorded effect of the Fall.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Apart from the first few chapters of Genesis (which don't comment either way on Eclipses), Human Records don't stretch back to before the Fall!!!:D

J C

Wicknight wrote:

Well mostly it is you insulting our intelligence, and your own religion BTW, by inappropriately quoting random scripture back to us to hide your embarrassment that you don't know what you are talking about or that your "positive" assertions have been demonstrated to be false.

You seem to treat the Bible text the way a debate team treat the out of time buzzer.

Scripture is always good for teaching and instruction!!:)

Scofflaw

J C wrote:

Scofflaw wrote:

Such a pity that partial eclipses have been recorded back as far as human records stretch, eh? Some might take that to suggest that the Moon has never been inclined on any other plane than an imperfect one, but I'm sure you won't. I imagine it's yet another unrecorded effect of the Fall.

Apart from the first few chapters of Genesis (which don't comment either way on Eclipses), Human Records don't stretch back to before the Fall!!!

That would be a "yes" then.

cordially,
Scofflaw

wolfsbane

JC said:

Scofflaw
all those partial eclipses...again, why would you need those if the point were a display of God's power? Just to catch out those of us likely to say "hmm, God's aim is a bit off this time"?

The predominance of partial Solar Eclipses is due to the fact that the orbital plane of the Moon is now inclined at about 5 degrees to the orbital plane of the Earth, as well as the differences between the Lunar Apogee and Perigree distances (see above).

However, whenever total eclipses do occur, they give us an awe-inspiring, fleeting glimpse of the once perfect (and still magnificent) Creation of God!!!!

Right on!

Maybe they are also pictures of the partial judgements that precede the total one to come. As individuals, as nations, as a race, we have all experienced such judgements. They ought to warn us of the ultimate disaster that awaits unrepentant sinners.

2 Peter 3:5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Son Goku

J C wrote:

All planets exhibit somewhat elliptical orbits ………just like everything else in the Universe has also now become IMPERFECT ……due to the Fall.:eek:

Ellipses are the same class of object as a circle.They're all solutions to
(x/a)^2 + (y/b)^2 = 1. So I don't understand in what sense it is meaningful to say they are less perfect than circles.

wolfsbane wrote:

Maybe they are also pictures of the partial judgements that precede the total one to come. As individuals, as nations, as a race, we have all experienced such judgements. They ought to warn us of the ultimate disaster that awaits unrepentant sinners.

Maybe they are when the Moon passes in front of the Sun and makes a really big shadow. Do you not realise you can predict to the second when the next eclipse occurs. They are an interesting consequence of the three body problem in Newton's mechanics, nothing more. Unless God encodes his judgements into the inverse square law. Seriously that is Bronze Age thinking.

wolfsbane

Son Goku said:

Maybe they are when the Moon passes in front of the Sun and makes a really big shadow. Do you not realise you can predict to the second when the next eclipse occurs. They are an interesting consequence of the three body problem in Newton's mechanics, nothing more. Unless God encodes his judgements into the inverse square law.

Yes, since God made all the laws, they point to the Great Designer. We can take from them that God's plan will come to its fruition at exactly the time He appointed. The Day of Judgement is certain and fixed.

Seriously that is Bronze Age thinking.

I don't have a problem with that - our forefathers were just as intelligent as we are. Probably more so.

Like us, some of them knew the true God, most didn't. Those who didn't sought out any and all alternative explanations for their existence, no matter how contrary to sense and observation. Evolution is the modern favourite. Human nature doesn't change.

Zombrex

wolfsbane wrote:

I don't have a problem with that - our forefathers were just as intelligent as we are. Probably more so.

Bronze age man used to slaughter live stock as sacrifice to please the rain gods and ensure that the weather produced sufficient rain fall that session's crops.

When Son says Bronze Age thinking he doesn't mean lack of intelligence. He means ignorance.

Ignorance of how the natural world really works. There is no god in the rain clouds. There was no god in the rain clouds. The reason it rains or doesn't rain is due to the very complex yet completely natural system of weather on the planet.

Bronze Age thinking is filling in the gaps in your understand with fantasies of agency, because "common sense" tells us that when it rains it rains because someone inside the rain clouds decides to make it rain.

We continue to believe that until our understanding is raised to such a level that we see that there are no gods in the rain clouds. And then we look back wondering how were we so silly in the first place to believe that.

Son Goku

wolfsbane wrote:

Yes, since God made all the laws, they point to the Great Designer. We can take from them that God's plan will come to its fruition at exactly the time He appointed. The Day of Judgement is certain and fixed.

What laws? The inverse square law can be derived from the fact that things are rotationally invariant, there is nothing mystic about it. I mean seriously they are eclipses, when the Sun and the Moon come together to make a big shadow. Nothing more.

wolfsbane wrote:

I don't have a problem with that - our forefathers were just as intelligent as we are. Probably more so.

Great, a vague statement that means nothing. However thinking the eclipse shows when God is mad is ridiculous. It's like saying rain is when God cries. It's literally a bronze age thought.
This really has nothing to do with Creationisms vs. Evolution. Realise you don't live in ancient Sumaria and that we've learned a bit. Eclipses are simply large shadows.