The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 1)

Asiaprod

iUseVi wrote: »

Ha, I tried to submit a message and boards said I had too many smilies. I wonder if J C ever has that problem.

No, he has a special dispensation from Boards.IE
because he has a thread with over 10,000 replies to his credit:D

iUseVi

Asiaprod wrote: »

No, he has a special dispensation from Boards.IE
because he has a thread with over 10,000 replies to his credit:D

I knew it!

AtomicHorror

J C wrote: »

......I saw no substantive points in that posting to which I needed to reply!!!!

Flat contradictions of your points are not substantive... sure.

J C wrote: »

......I don't have the time nor the inclination to engage in endless semantic word games with you guys.....

Aside from experimental punctuation it really seems like semantic games are about all you have time for.

J C wrote: »

......I made my points .....and you made yours.....and the observer can make their minds up who is correct!!!!:D

Then so long as you don't try to use misleading language again, I will not repost that message. I'm asking only that you call a spade a spade so that we're all on the same page.

wolfsbane

MooseJam wrote: »

whats your definition of holy

The Biblical sense. The word means:
1) apartness, holiness, sacredness, separateness

a) apartness, sacredness, holiness

1) of God

2) of places

3) of things

b) set-apartness, separateness

The contrast to being sinful/morally unclean.

Romans 6:19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

1 Thessalonians 4:7 For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness.

MooseJam

wolfsbane wrote: »

The contrast to being sinful/morally unclean.

What about all the people he killed isn't that sinfull, the great flood etc

wolfsbane

Wicknight said:

Firstly "infinitely holy" is a meaningless statement. Holy means divine, and you can't really have something that is only a bit divine. infinitely holy simply means holy.

See mine to Moosejam on the meaning of holy.

Secondly the idea that an infinitely good being would find sin utterly repugnant is ridiculous

Sin is simply the act of disobeying. The idea that a perfect being would find the idea of a less being disobeying him repugent is as nonsensical as a human getting repulsed at a dog for not sitting when told.

God could certain be concerned that we disobey him as it obviously thinks that his way is the right way (and you guys believe he is always right), so he would be concerned about people not doing what they are told

But the idea that this would be repugent to him or that it would rise him to anger or wrath. Ridiculous. A perfect being being raised to anger because we dont do what he says. Nonsense

Wickie, you can always be relied upon to know the mind of God - rather how God should think, if He were as wise as you. :pac:

Two factors that should cause you to think again:
1. Our reactions to what we regard as wickedness. Anger and wrath are characteristic. How much more for a God who sees the real depth of evil?

2. God has revealed how He feels about sin, unmistakedly, over and over again in the Bible.

wolfsbane

MooseJam wrote: »

What about all the people he killed isn't that sinfull, the great flood etc

No, that was not sinful. For a start, they were His creation, so He can decide their days and means of departing this life. But also, they were sinners, under God's righteous judgement.

wolfsbane

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Obviously he doesn't apply this reflection of sin on himself...

:rolleyes:

He is totally sinless. That's one of the characteristics of perfect holiness.

MooseJam

wolfsbane wrote: »

No, that was not sinful. For a start, they were His creation, so He can decide their days and means of departing this life. But also, they were sinners, under God's righteous judgement.

so what were these dastardly people up to, how does what these sinners were doing compare to the holocaust for example, that was a pretty sinfull time why no flood

MooseJam

wolfsbane wrote: »

they were sinners, under God's righteous judgement.

what if god killed your whole family because they are sinners, what would you think ? would you be ah sure thats grand they were sinners under gods righteous judgement

wolfsbane

Mark Hamill said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
You have pointed to the immediate causes. Example of immediate an cause: a bullet to the brain causing death. It would not be a good defence for the accused gunman to plead it was the bullet, not him, that killed the victim. The accused was the real, determining cause.
Actually, according to your logic, God is ultimately the determining cause. And this begs the question, if God is the ultimate cause of everything, the why would God cause something to happen which would cause someone to do evil? Why would God, who supposedly loves all humans equally and wants us all in heaven, knowingly cause someone to do something that could ultimately send them to hell (or whatever your alternative to hell is)? Are some people expendable? Are some people made purposely to be evil (and therefore go straight to hell), so that others may what? Rise up against that evil? look better by comparison?

1. God does not love all humans equally. He loves His elect supremely.

2. God does not make anyone sin. They do that freely and gladly. God permits them to sin, and does so in a way that even their evil action serves His good purpose.

3. One of the reasons God permits evil people to exist and act as they desire is to display His anger against sin:
Romans 9: 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

wolfsbane

MooseJam wrote: »

what if god killed your whole family because they are sinners, what would you think ? would you be ah sure thats grand they were sinners under gods righteous judgement

Yes. Many true believers have seen some of their family killed by God for their wickedness:

Genesis 19:23 The sun had risen upon the earth when Lot entered Zoar. 24 Then the LORD rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the LORD out of the heavens. 25 So He overthrew those cities, all the plain, all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground.
26 But his wife looked back behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.

Leviticus 10:1 Then Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, each took his censer and put fire in it, put incense on it, and offered profane fire before the LORD, which He had not commanded them. 2 So fire went out from the LORD and devoured them, and they died before the LORD. 3 And Moses said to Aaron, “This is what the LORD spoke, saying:

‘By those who come near Me
I must be regarded as holy;
And before all the people
I must be glorified.’”
So Aaron held his peace.

rockbeer

wolfsbane wrote: »

Genesis 19:23 The sun had risen upon the earth when Lot entered Zoar. 24 Then the LORD rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the LORD out of the heavens. 25 So He overthrew those cities, all the plain, all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground.
26 But his wife looked back behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.

Leviticus 10:1 Then Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, each took his censer and put fire in it, put incense on it, and offered profane fire before the LORD, which He had not commanded them. 2 So fire went out from the LORD and devoured them, and they died before the LORD. 3 And Moses said to Aaron, “This is what the LORD spoke, saying:

‘By those who come near Me
I must be regarded as holy;
And before all the people
I must be glorified.’”
So Aaron held his peace.

You see, it's all this carry-on that's the reason why, even if you could prove to me unequivocally that your god exists and that every word of the bible were true, I still wouldn't bend the knee to him. I would gladly take my chances in hell rather than swear allegiance to such a petty, vindictive and malicious being.

wolfsbane

MooseJam wrote: »

so what were these dastardly people up to, how does what these sinners were doing compare to the holocaust for example, that was a pretty sinfull time why no flood

The Flood was a special judgement. It will only be matched by the fiery one when Christ comes. In Noah's day the earth was filled with violence . Wickedness was at a zenith.
Genesis 6:11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. 12 So God looked upon the earth, and indeed it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth.

Even the holocaust was not on that scale. Remember, only Noah and his family were spared - no other righteous person existed in the whole earth.

So no need of a universal judgement because of the Nazi's sins. God sent the Soviets instead.

For the individuals who escape judgement in this life, as soon as their last breath leaves they lift up their eyes in hell:
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

wolfsbane

rockbeer wrote: »

You see, it's all this carry-on that's the reason why, even if you could prove to me unequivocally that your god exists and that every word of the bible were true, I still wouldn't bend the knee to him. I would gladly take my chances in hell rather than swear allegiance to such a petty, vindictive and malicious being.

I know. Your heart just naturally hates God and despises His holiness. What right has He to tell you what to do? How dare He punish sin!

That's why a man cannot see the kingdom of God except he be born again. You need to be born spiritually, just as you were physically. Until then you are dead in your sins, your foolish heart darkened; hence your criticism.

Beware that Day when the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.

MooseJam

We'll he's in for a surprise if he tries to judge me, I'd lay the smack down on him big time

Mark Hamill

wolfsbane wrote: »

1. Our reactions to what we regard as wickedness. Anger and wrath are characteristic. How much more for a God who sees the real depth of evil?

wolfsbane wrote:

3. One of the reasons God permits evil people to exist and act as they desire is to display His anger against sin:

Em, isn't anger one of the seven deadly sins? Also according to the second quote, God created sinful people so that he could get angry and show off his power. Doesn't that count as pride, another deadly sin?

wolfsbane wrote:

1. God does not love all humans equally. He loves His elect supremely.

If god doesn't love all humans equally, then why should all humans love god?

wolfsbane

Wicknight said:

How are you being "honest"?

What reason to you have to believe that "kinds" exists in biology at all

The Bible says so. How's that for honesty?

Biologists would be the first to state that human classification such as species is simply a human method of classification, not something that actually exists in biology.

But Creationists claim that "kinds" are not only a human classification, but a grouping that exists in biology itself, despite having no definition of how animals are actually classified at all.

So you think sparrows are spiders are sharks? It is all just a human method of classification, not something that actually exists in biology.

No, there are real divisions in lifeforms. The human efforts to distinguish are not perfect, but they are meant to convey real differences.

So how can you claim this? How can you possibly say that there exists a division in nature when you have no idea what this division is supposed to be, nor have you ever observed it, nor do you have any scientific models of how it operates or what this division does? How is that being "honest"

The division is marked by the inability to reproduce. Other factors also produce an inablity to reproduce, but kind is characterised by this: if two creatures can reproduce, they are of the same kind. We see lots of kinds: horse and zebras and donkeys all of one kind. Lions and tigers of one kind, etc.

Not only do you claim it but you assert further things like saying that no organism can evolve outside its kind (which I'm not sure you have realised is a meaningless statement since you seem to accept infinite diversity within a kind thus making such a division meaningless). How can you possible assert that if you have no clue what makes up a kind in the first place.

Never have I asserted infinite diversity within a kind. They have a finite diversity - the sort that produces lions and tigers, for example, but not lions and humans.

Do you have any reason beyond the Bible (which itself just used the word "kind" as it is, not a biological classification) to say that division of "kinds" even exist in biology?

No, I think the Bible is the source for this insight into biology. Without it one could speculate about the origins of all the species: all from an original self-replicating cell; from several/many self-replicating cells; from original kinds put here by some intelligence.

wolfsbane

MooseJam wrote: »

We'll he's in for a surprise if he tries to judge me, I'd lay the smack down on him big time

That's right - they can't see you if you keep your eyes shut.:rolleyes:

Mark Hamill

wolfsbane wrote: »

I know. Your heart just naturally hates God and despises His holiness. What right has He to tell you what to do? How dare He punish sin!

But god also creates sin. He creates sinful people and allows sins to be commited when it suits him:

wolfsbane wrote:

3. One of the reasons God permits evil people to exist and act as they desire is to display His anger against sin

Doesn't seem very "holy" to allow people to do wrong so that you can show off your mighty anger to the world. Kinda makes you a jerk.

PDN

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Em, isn't anger one of the seven deadly sins? Also according to the second quote, God created sinful people so that he could get angry and show off his power. Doesn't that count as pride, another deadly sin?

If you want to argue with someone who bases their beliefs on the Bible, rather than on the pronouncements of Pope Gregory the Great, then the seven deadly sins are hardly going to carry much weight.

wolfsbane

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Em, isn't anger one of the seven deadly sins? Also according to the second quote, God created sinful people so that he could get angry and show off his power. Doesn't that count as pride, another deadly sin?



If god doesn't love all humans equally, then why should all humans love god?

Unrighteous anger is a sin, not anger itself. Pride is thinking more of oneself than one ought - God thinks correctly about Himself.

We should love God because He is good and worthy to be loved. We, however, are naturally wicked and worthy of wrath. That God set His love upon some and redeemed them by the atoning death of His Son, is proof of His mercy and kindness. That He permits others to continue in their sins and punishes them at the Judgement, is a proof of His righteousness.

wolfsbane

Mark Hamill wrote: »

But god also creates sin. He creates sinful people and allows sins to be commited when it suits him: Doesn't seem very "holy" to allow people to do wrong so that you can show off your mighty anger to the world. Kinda makes you a jerk.

I see no problem in the God who made all things and who is perfectly holy doing this. For sinful man to do so would indeed be wicked. That's your problem - mixing up what is proper for God and what is proper for man.

Flamed Diving

wolfsbane wrote: »

He is totally sinless. That's one of the characteristics of perfect holiness.

Is murder a sin?

wolfsbane

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Is murder a sin?

Yes. The deliberate and unrighteous killing of a man is a sin.

Flamed Diving

wolfsbane wrote: »

Yes. The deliberate and unrighteous killing of a man is a sin.

How do you define righteous?

rockbeer

wolfsbane wrote: »

We, however, are naturally wicked and worthy of wrath.

Just the way he made us. Apparently.

wolfsbane

Flamed Diving wrote: »

How do you define righteous?

In this case, deserved.

wolfsbane

rockbeer wrote: »

Just the way he made us. Apparently.

Not so. Originally man was perfect. When he sinned, he became wicked. We continue that nature today.

We are all born sinners. It is God who changes the sinner into the saint.

Flamed Diving

wolfsbane wrote: »

In this case, deserved.

Give me some examples of how someone deserves to be killed?