The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 1)

AtomicHorror

wolfsbane wrote: »

Let me put it simpler for you then: the Bible teaches our bodies came from inorganic matter - the dust of the ground. But those bodies received a spirit from God, so man is body and spirit.

Evolution teaches we came from inorganic matter, and that our organic state is just a variation of that and no more. No room for a spirit, just very complicated chemical reactions.

We cannot define or measure spirit. We do not dismiss it, we merely will not consider it a part of science until it can be measured. Science is merely observation, after all.

J C

In posting #11731 AtomicHorror attributes two quotes from Hitler to me......please have this error corrected.:(:(

J C

wrote:

Originally Posted by J C
..........the demons ALSO believe that Jesus exists..........and this causes them to tremble.......at the fate that awaits them.....see Jas 2:19.

AtomicHorror
Demons defy God. Whereas Hitler said:
Quote:
"For God's will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will. "

He (Hitler) also re-stated his Catholicism in his adulthood, and said of the persectution of the Jews:
Quote:
"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

Even when I was Catholic, I found these sentiments abhorrent. Nor do I consider them a valid reflection of Christianity now.

As I have said, the demons KNOW that God exists.....and Created all things....including them.....but they refuse to obey God.......not out of ignorance of His existence......but out of pride in their own importance!!!!:eek:

Yes, ironically Hitler was a bit of an 'environmentalist'......and that was why he fulminated against anybody who 'destroyed God's Creation'.......
........as further proof of their 'environmental credentials'.....the Nazis were also strongly anti-smoking !!!!!:eek:

It takes some evil mixed-up mind to be anti-smoking ...........yet developing systems of mass extermination that involved the burning of millions of bodies in industrial scale crematoria that belched copious quantities of black smoke and ash skywards 24/7!!!
....or claiming to be environmentally concerned.....yet ordering 'blitz kreig' carpet bombing of large areas of cities and countryside......but such is the illogical nature of the Anti-christ....and his agents!!!:eek:

It also takes some evil mixed-up mind to equate doing God's will and protecting His Creation with killing His Chosen People!!!!!!

When it comes to false Christians, like Hitler, who SAY they are Christian....but who are Anti-Christ in their ACTIONS.....the following verses of scripture says it all about them and their 'fellow travellers':-
Mt 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

.....and BTW it wasn't only Jews that the Nazis murdered......many thousands of Christians were also summarily executed or murdered in the extermination camps.....for assisting Jews or standing up against Nazi atrocities......and, for this, many Christians are honoured today by Israel as "Righteous Among the Nations"!!!!

.....but of course, their most important honour is that they now sit on the right hand of God in Heaven.

Zombrex

wolfsbane wrote: »

Evolution teaches we came from inorganic matter, and that our organic state is just a variation of that and no more. No room for a spirit, just very complicated chemical reactions.

Not sure how you can say that

Plenty of people believe in "spirits" while also accepting evolution as the process in which life developed on Earth.

But more fundamentally "spirit" is a completely undefined and as such untestable concept, so one could not say scientifically if there "no room" for it

It is funny how you criticise science while assuming it says the same type of religiousy assertions that Creationism does.

AtomicHorror

J C wrote: »

In posting #11731 AtomicHorror attributes two quotes from Hitler to me......please have this error corrected.:(:(

Sorry about that J C. I've fixed it now. Copypasting quote codes.

J C wrote: »

As I have said, the demons KNOW that God exists.....and Created all things....including them.....but they refuse to obey God.......not out of ignorance of His existence......but out of pride in their own importance!!!!:eek:

Yes, ironically Hitler was a bit of an 'environmentalist'......and that was why he fulminated against anybody who 'destroyed God's Creation'.......
........as further proof of their 'environmental credentials'.....the Nazis were also strongly anti-smoking !!!!!:eek:

It takes some evil mixed-up mind to be anti-smoking ...........yet developing systems of mass extermination that involved the burning of millions of bodies in indusrial scale crematoria!!!
....or claiming to be environmentally concerned.....yet ordering 'blitz kreig' carpet bombing of large areas of countryside......but such is the illogical nature of the Anti-christ....and his agents!!!:eek:

It also takes some evil mixed-up mind to equate doing God's will and protecting His Creation with killing His Chosen People!!!!!!

When it comes to false Christians, like Hitler, who SAY they are Christian....but who are Anti-Christ in their ACTIONS.....the following verses of scripture says it all:-
Mt 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

.....and BTW it wasn't only Jews that the Nazis murdered......many thousands of Christians were also summarily executed or murdered in the extermination camps.....for assisting Jews or standing up against Nazi atrocities......and many are honoured today by Israel as "Righteous Among the Nations"!!!!

.....and of course, their most important honour is that they now sit on the right hand of God in Heaven..

Calling Hitler a false Christian sounds quite fair to me. He certainly seems to have cherry-picked the beliefs that suited him. By extension I would also call him a false Evolutionist, though I disagree with the use of the word "Evolutionist" in most contexts. Somewhere in his reading of Darwin, Hitler came upon the "survival of the fittest" concept, and decided that "fit" meant "most actively violent". It appears he was quite incorrect in his simplistic interpretation.

robindch

J C wrote: »

....Stalin and Hitler were Satanically inspired Anti-Christs of the first order........who killed the best part of 50 million people between them!!!!

Just on a point of information, Adolf and Joe actually killed very few people between them, but they did manage to convince their respective nations -- both christian to the core -- to do their mass killing for them.

And Germany's treatment of the Jews pretty much followed an eight-point plan laid down by Martin Luther in his 1543 rant "On the Jews and Their Lies":

Martin Luther wrote:

• First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them.
• Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed.
• Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them.
• Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb.
• Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews.
• Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them.
• Seventh, I commend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow... For it is not fitting that they should let us accursed Goyim toil in the sweat of our faces while they, the holy people, idle away their time behind the stove, feasting and farting
• We have to part company with them. They must be driven from our country

Creationists, who are mostly protestants, rarely discuss this text, for reasons that are pretty obvious.

The full text of Luther's screed is available here.

Zombrex

robindch wrote: »

Just on a point of information, Adolf and Joe actually killed very few people between them, but they did manage to convince their respective nations -- both christian to the core -- to do their mass killing for them.

And Germany's treatment of the Jews pretty much followed an eight-point plan laid down by Martin Luther in his 1543 rant "On the Jews and Their Lies":Creationists, who are mostly protestants, rarely discuss this text, for reasons that are pretty obvious.

The full text of Luther's screed is available here.

Clearly Martin Luther was an atheist .... oh wait ... :pac:

robindch

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Calling Hitler a false Christian sounds quite fair to me. He certainly seems to have cherry-picked the beliefs that suited him.

...which is something that most religious people do all the time. If one followed every rule in the bible down to the letter, one would not be able to function in this world.

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Somewhere in his reading of Darwin, Hitler came upon the "survival of the fittest" concept, and decided that "fit" meant "most actively violent".

I believe that Adolf was influenced far more by Machiavelli, whose work he regularly read and re-read, than by any very deep understanding of economist Herbert Spencer's "survival of the fittest" phrase.

Certainly, Stalin, through Trofim Lysenko, tended towards Lamarckianism rather than Darwinism, since seemed to imply that one could consciously evolve society, for example, from feudalism to socialism, by force if necessary. Such an evolution would obviously safeguard the revolution, and Stalin's own position at the head of it. Adolf seems to have had vaguely similar, and equally barmy, ideas.

Galvasean

Wicknight wrote: »

Clearly Martin Luther was an atheist .... oh wait ... :pac:

He wouldn't be the first religious person to be lumped in with the atheists because he did something bad.

thebaldsoprano

Galvasean wrote: »

He wouldn't be the first religious person to be lumped in with the atheists because he did something bad.

Or the first non religious person to be banished by the atheists for doing something bad

Galvasean

thebaldsoprano wrote: »

Or the first non religious person to be banished by the atheists for doing something bad

Interesting, how does one get excommunicated from atheism?

robindch

Galvasean wrote: »

Interesting, how does one get excommunicated from atheism?

We all stand around in a circle and blow a raspberry in your general direction. Then beer's on whoever's last to the bar.

thebaldsoprano

Galvasean wrote: »

Interesting, how does one get excommunicated from atheism?

Heresy against doctrine...

Standman

thebaldsoprano wrote: »

Or the first non religious person to be banished by the atheists for doing something bad

I think he's referring to his banning from the atheist forum.

Zombrex

Standman wrote: »

I think he's referring to his banning from the atheist forum.

He got banned from the A&A forum ... wow, bravo sir. That is like being kicked out of Weight watchers for being too fat.

J C

Galvasean wrote: »

Interesting, how does one get excommunicated from atheism?

.......tell them you no longer believe in Evolution.....and have become a Creationist.........that should get you quickly 'shunned' and excommunicated by the Atheists allright!!!!:pac::):D

wolfsbane

Wicknight wrote: »

Clearly Martin Luther was an atheist .... oh wait ... :pac:

No, he was just a foolish Christian who had not rid himself of enough baggage when he left Rome. Persecuting heretics and false worshippers seemed the right thing to do. Pity he had not let the NT order his thinking on this. Still, we all have to learn.

Did his whole lifestyle show him to be a wicked man, or just misguided in his intentions on matters of civic order? I think the latter.

J C

robindch wrote: »

Just on a point of information, Adolf and Joe actually killed very few people between them, but they did manage to convince their respective nations -- both christian to the core -- to do their mass killing for them.

Murder and (true) Christianity are mutually exclusive!!!!:)

robindch wrote: »

And Germany's treatment of the Jews pretty much followed an eight-point plan laid down by Martin Luther in his 1543 rant

Creationists, who are mostly protestants, rarely discuss this text, for reasons that are pretty obvious.

The full text of Luther's screed is available here.

......Martin Luther was a Roman Catholic monk who initially protested, as a Roman Catholic, against some of the excesses, as he saw them, of Roman Catholocism at that time.
When protest appeared to fail he then decided to form his own religion .......and as I am not a Lutheran, or a Protestant, I will leave it to the Protestants and the Roman Catholics to comment on Luthers writings!!:D

J C

thebaldsoprano wrote: »

Heresy against doctrine...

......yes indeed, many Atheists consider Creation Science to be a 'heresy and an abomination' against the doctrine of Evolution!!!!!
:pac::):D

santing

robindch wrote: »

And Germany's treatment of the Jews pretty much followed an eight-point plan laid down by Martin Luther in his 1543 rant "On the Jews and Their Lies":Creationists, who are mostly protestants, rarely discuss this text, for reasons that are pretty obvious.

Well, a simple google revealed two documents you could read:
http://www.ntrmin.org/Luther%20and%20the%20Jews%20(Web).htm

and

http://creationontheweb.com/content/view/2063/31/

Yes, Luther’s unbiblical ideas about the Jews (which was a part of the State Church corruption that he did not manage to recognize, but then one man can only do so much!) was a factor in German thinking, but there was no Holocaust until over 400 years after Luther, when evolutionary ideas (‘science’) gave legitimacy to racism, eugenics, etc. The acceptance of evolution by the mainstream churches in Germany (the home of so-called ‘higher criticism’, which is merely evolutionary rationalism applied to the Bible) almost certainly helped pave the way for Hitler’s ideas.

Creationist generally assume that only God is always right ...

J C

robindch wrote: »

.......I believe that Adolf was influenced far more by Machiavelli, whose work he regularly read and re-read, than by any very deep understanding of economist Herbert Spencer's "survival of the fittest" phrase.

Certainly, Stalin, through Trofim Lysenko, tended towards Lamarckianism rather than Darwinism, since seemed to imply that one could consciously evolve society, for example, from feudalism to socialism, by force if necessary. Such an evolution would obviously safeguard the revolution, and Stalin's own position at the head of it. Adolf seems to have had vaguely similar, and equally barmy, ideas.

......Hitler and Stalin were high-ranking initiates in deeply occultic secret societies......and that was probably their greatest influence.
Their adoption of Evolution was 'a flag of convenience'......in the case of Hitler it provided pseudo-scientific justification for his warped prejudices.....and in the case of Stalin it helped to bolster his image as an Atheist and a Communist!!!!

As they were both occultists, and therefore has access to the Spirit World, neither Hitler or Stalin truly believed in 'Goo to You' Evolution!!!!:)

......though Hitler, in common with many Eugenecists at that time, clearly believed in giving Natural Selection a 'helping hand'!!!!!:D

......with horrific consequences for anybody he chose to Artificially Select against!!!

thebaldsoprano

Standman wrote: »

I think he's referring to his banning from the atheist forum.

Wicknight wrote: »

He got banned from the A&A forum ... wow, bravo sir. That is like being kicked out of Weight watchers for being too fat.

Whisper in the presence of the heretic and speak not with him directly lest ye be corrupted by his evil verses!

Galvasean

J C wrote: »

.......tell them you no longer believe in Evolution.....and have become a Creationist.........that should get you quickly 'shunned' and excommunicated by the Atheists allright!!!!:pac::):D

Well if you have become a Creationist youre its already to late for them to excommunicate you. I don't think there are any atheist Creationists. Bit of an oxymoron there..

J C wrote: »

As they were both occultists, and therefore has access to the Spirit World, neither Hitler or Stalin truly believed in 'Goo to You' Evolution!!!!:)

Access to the spirit world? Remember how extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, I would like to see some on that particular topic please.

Flamed Diving

'Goo to you' evolution.

Roflcopter!

Zombrex

thebaldsoprano wrote: »

Whisper in the presence of the heretic and speak not with him directly lest ye be corrupted by his evil verses!

Well i was going to worship you as a god ...

Zombrex

santing wrote: »

Creationist generally assume that only God is always right ...

Well no, they generally assume they are always right as well.

Not only is God never wrong, but their interpretation of God is never wrong either, despite over whelming evidence to the contrary.

I can imagine God sitting in heaven looking down are the Creationists shaking his head and saying "what? you want more evidence...?"

thebaldsoprano

Wicknight wrote: »

Well i was going to worship you as a god ...

I like!

Off to get meself a silly costume and start preaching on the streets...

wolfsbane

Wicknight wrote: »

Not sure how you can say that

Plenty of people believe in "spirits" while also accepting evolution as the process in which life developed on Earth.

But more fundamentally "spirit" is a completely undefined and as such untestable concept, so one could not say scientifically if there "no room" for it

It is funny how you criticise science while assuming it says the same type of religiousy assertions that Creationism does.

Yes, I take your point about some evolutionists also believing in a spirit world. The Occult, for example, has a great attraction in many areas where atheism and evolutionism are the standard assumptions. It is just the rationale behind that that is problematic.

Most hold to a purely materialistic explanation of the universe and its biosphere (as far as I can see). So where did the spirits arise? Did they evolve like the rest of us are supposed to, from non-life? Are they just more advanced life - the present biosphere evolved as far from us as we are from the first self-replicating molecules? Or are they from another dimension, where our characteristics and parameters do not apply?

What I should have said was that I cannot see how our present biosphere on Earth and evolutionary theory can account for the spirit world. It must be something evolved elsewhere or be a fundamentally different from this material universe.

Hope that is a bit clearer.

wolfsbane

AtomicHorror said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
1. No, I endeavour believe in science when it is true. Sometimes I believed in it when it was not - and had to change my beliefs when science admitted it had got it wrong. The Creation/Evolution issue is one where most scientists believe they have the truth sussed - but they believed that about others issues too, only to have a change of mind. That, together with my primary belief in the Biblical account, allows me to be an a-evolutionist.
You see our willingness to accept the truth of our errors as a weakness. That says it all really.

Quite the reverse: I fully accept not to change one's mind in the face of more light would be moral weakness.

Tell me though, which of the big theories (aside from Evolution of course), have we been forced to abandon? I can recall periods of crisis from my history of science, but in the last couple of hundred years, the community has learned to adopt only the most robust models as theory. Perhaps you feel like the science presented in the media is rigid and self contradictory. Unsurprising, since the mainstream interpretations of modern science are very much flawed. Perhaps we are partially to blame for not engaging properly with the public, for remaining too aloof.

I agree, pop science cannot be the measure of good science. I take your point too that big theories have robust models and so usually need only modifications. But the difference with the big theory of Evolution is that it has philosophical/worldview implications, and these implications load it with a prejudiced assessment of robustness. Too much is at stake to let it be questioned. Theories of relativity or other emotionally neutral science can be abandoned without soul-searching.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
2. Many of the scientific discoveries were by Christians who held to the biblical account, so we can't be accused of being anti-science.
I wonder how many of them would accept evolution if shown the data? Impossible to know. Please don't feel like you can claim good scientists to your cause, were they alive today I would guess that many of them would fail your "true Christian" test. The main criteria seems to be abandonment of human reason in favour of dogma.

One doesn't have to be a true Christian to be a Creationist. As to what men of centuries ago would have made of the data, I agree that is speculative. What Creationist scientists of this past century make of it is there to read.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
But evolutionists have been the main practitioners of mass-murder in this past century: Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc. And they are the cheer-leaders of the mass-murder of the abortion industry. And are now behind the movement for a massive world population cull. Your enlightenment is in reality a darkening of the spirit.
We've heard this rubbish before. Evolution is not a moral philosophy. Christianity is, yet evils are still done in its name. Are you responsible, is any Christian responsible for the Crusades? Of course not.

The Crusades were done in contradiction to the New Testament teachings, not in outworking them. Evolution is just a scientific theory, but one that was motivated by and is the strongest plank in an anti-God morality.

"Evolutionists" do not constitute a conspiracy that conveniently believes in everything you fear. There are plenty of pro-life scientists out there. Plenty of "evolutionists" opposed to euthanasia.

Sure, people live with contradiction, especially when their conscience confronts their intellect. But let the evolutionist defend the sacredness of human life based on his belief on man's origin and nature. Can't be done.

And since you mention him, Hitler claimed to believe in Evolution, but he also claimed to believe in Jesus too.

What a man really believes can be seen by what he does. Hitler's idea of Jesus was no more true than that of any of his German higher critic unbelievers. A Jewish Jesus? The Jesus of love your enemies? If Hitler believed in any literal Jesus, it was not the one of the NT.

MrPudding

Interesting find in Poland.....

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/rtrs/20080802/tod-uk-poland-dinosaur-b7e5c6f.html

MrP