The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 1)

Flamed Diving

sukikettle wrote: »

p.s. A day is like a thousand years to God. It says so in the bible and would account to a six day creation. Do you really think His arm is so short as to not have enough time or wisdom to pull it together. Can you make it rain or snow or have the sun to shine? Where does humanity have the right to question Him. He asks us this quite pointedly in Job in the last chapters. Don't you need to read the bible to make such sweeping statements? Do you know the God you're all dissing?

Doesn't God exist outside of time?

J C

Wicknight wrote: »

Most atheists are open to the idea of there being a "god" (if by god you mean an intelligence who created the universe). What they reject is the notion that you guys know anything about it.

....could I gently remind you that the Word 'Atheist' means 'Non believer in God'.......in or out of inverted commas!!!!:D:eek:

.....and ANYBODY who believes that an 'intelligence' (of any description) created the Universe is technically an Intelligent Design Advocate!!!!
:eek:

Flamed Diving

J C wrote: »

....could I gently remind you that the Word 'Atheist' means 'No God'.......in or out of inverted commas!!!!:D:eek:

.....and ANYBODY who believes that an 'intelligence' (of any description)created the Universe is technically an Intelligent Design Advocate!!!!
:eek:

Do you know the difference between believing in something, and not ruling something out as impossible? You seem to be having great difficulty with this. Let me know if you need any help deciphering this complex issue. Some people just need a little extra assistance sometimes.

Zombrex

sukikettle wrote: »

p.s. A day is like a thousand years to God. It says so in the bible and would account to a six day creation.

Given that God is supposed to exist "outside" of space time nothing is like a thousand years to God. Time would have no meaning to him.

sukikettle wrote: »

Where does humanity have the right to question Him.

By that logic humanity doesn't have the right to question if he exists, so all Christians are offending God by believing in him. Wonderful

J C

Wicknight wrote: »

By some amazing cosmic fluke your completely made up concept of a god might match exactly to a real cosmic super being.

.....so you DO believe in a 'real cosmic super being'.....but you think that he is not the God of the Bible!!!!:eek::D

I can think of a candidate who might claim to be a 'real cosmic super being' .... but he is neither 'cosmic' nor a 'super being'!!!!:D:eek:

....and I would caution against having anything to do with him or his works!!!!

Flamed Diving

J C wrote: »

.....so you DO believe in a 'real cosmic super being'

I don't see where he says that anywhere. Do you suffer from learning difficulties?

AtomicHorror

He's just glad we're not asking him those mean old questions about Creationism he can't seem to answer.

Zombrex

J C wrote: »

.....so you DO believe in a 'real cosmic super being'.....but you think that he is not the God of the Bible!!!!:eek::D

I think it is possible that there is a "real cosmic super being", but if there is it certainly isn't the god described in the Bible.

J C

JoBlog wrote: »

There has been no satisfactory hypothesis as to how the biological process of evolution might have got started. The jump from non living to living seems to involve too big a step from simple to immensely complex to have happened by some happy fluke assemblage of the many components.

....the Evolutionists get over that particular insurmountable issue by claiming that it is 'outside' of Evolution!!!!!

.....while simultaneously declaring out of the other side of their mouths that Evolution explains everything about life!!!!!

....indeed they have so successfully pedalled the idea that 'Evolution fully explains life' ......that most of the Mainstream Christian Churches have swallowed it 'hook line and sinker'!!!!!

JoBlog wrote: »

James Lovelock in one of his recent books on global warming and Gaia theory recounts discussions he had with Richard Dawkins on the incompatibility of his Gaia theory with evolution. Gaia is the theory that the earth's physical systems and biological systems work together to provide an environment which tries to conditions for life. Dawkins naturally felt that this was not "the blind watchmaker" at work and Lovelock concedes that Dawkins "won" the discussions (both are aetheistic evolutionists). But Gaia is now widely accepted as fact by the scientific community, but there is no satisfactory theoretical bridge between the force of natural selection and the gaian outcome of the process. In the book, Lovelock quotes two of the UK's top scientific establishment figures saying that "we need another Newton" to figure the answer to this conundrum. But some purposeful meddling from on high would do the trick.

....if they weren't so quick to sack Intelligent Design Advocates they might get an answer to the 'conundrum' quite quickly indeed...:eek::eek:

.....or even better still, they could try employing a Creation Scientist who would 'straighten out' their thinking in double quick time!!!!

.....and isn't it an amazing admission that "Gaia is now widely accepted as fact by the scientific community".....so a pagan Godess is now widely accepted by the 'Atheists' ... as the ultimate 'cause' of life .... and they still loudly proclaim that 'religion' and 'science' can never mix!!!!!

.....and isn't it also quite amazing that many Mainstream Christian Church members now accept the theory (of Materialistic Evolution)....which relies on a Pagan Greek Godess for it's ultimate credibility!!!!:eek:

....strange days indeed!!!:eek::eek:

J C

wrote:

Originally Posted by J C
.....so you DO believe in a 'real cosmic super being'

Flamed Diving
I don't see where he says that anywhere. Do you suffer from learning difficulties?

Wicknight
I think it is possible that there is a "real cosmic super being"

....I'll let the reader allocate the IQs here!!!!:D

The Mad Hatter

J C wrote: »

....the Evolutionists get over that particular insurmountable issue by claiming that it is 'outside' of Evolution!!!!!

.....while simultaneously declaring out of the other side of their mouths that Evolution explains everything about life!!!!!

No, about the diversity of life.

Flamed Diving

J C wrote: »

"Gaia is now widely accepted as fact by the scientific community"

According to... Jo Blog?

Where is the source for this 'theory' being widely accepted? Or is this a load of nonsense that you are pulling from the usual places?

Zombrex

J C wrote: »

....I'll let the reader allocate the IQs here!!!!:D

Apparently you don't understand what the word "believe" means, other wise you would never think the sentence "I think it is possible that X exists" has the same meaning as the sentence "I believe X exists"

Its ok, we will just add that to the list of other things you don't understand ...

Flamed Diving

J C wrote: »

....I'll let the reader allocate the IQs here!!!!:D

I still don't see where he says that he believes in the topic at hand. He merely doesn't discount it as impossible. I have come to a few conclusions based on observation of this little dialogue.

1) You have learning difficulties.

2) You are a troll.

3) You are neither, but just a liar.

I'm leaning towards number 2.

AtomicHorror

J C wrote: »

....the Evolutionists get over that particular insurmountable issue by claiming that it is 'outside' of Evolution!!!!!

.....while simultaneously declaring out of the other side of their mouths that Evolution explains everything about life!!!!!

....indeed they have so successfully pedalled the idea that 'Evolution fully explains life' ......that most of the Mainstream Christian Churches have swallowed it 'hook line and sinker'!!!!!

When did we make those claims? And when did anyone familiar with what evolution actually is ever accept such claims? You're just upset because it contradicts a 6000 year old world. So you focus on abiogenesis as a surrogate for attacking a related theory.

J C wrote: »

....if they weren't so quick to sack Intelligent Design Advocates they might get an answer to the 'conundrum' quite quickly indeed...:eek::eek:

.....or even better still, they could try employing a Creation Scientist who would 'straighten out' their thinking in double quick time!!!!

As if they haven't tried to give their answers anyway. They don't fit the data, ergo they suck.

J C wrote: »

.....and isn't it an amazing admission that "Gaia is now widely accepted as fact by the scientific community".....so a pagan Godess is now widely accepted by the 'Atheists' ... as the ultimate 'cause' of life .... and they still loudly proclaim that 'religion' and 'science' can never mix!!!!!

If you took the trouble to read my response to this guy, you'd see that I explain fully that the Gaia hypothesis, which has nothing to do with the paga goddess other than sharing a name, is not widely accepted. But you knew that being a scientist, right?

We can discard Gaia as not being part of the accepted "evolutionist" position. Sorry, no derailment for you.

J C wrote: »

.....and isn't it also quite amazing that many Mainstream Christian Church members now accept the theory (of Materialistic Evolution)....which relies on a Pagan Greek Godess for it's ultimate credibility!!!!:eek:

It doesn't have anything to do with it.

J C wrote: »

....strange days indeed!!!:eek::eek:

No, the strange days are the increasing spans of time in which you are strangely absent and silent, J C. Particularly following some of our recent intense questioning of you and our rejection of your attempts to derail the thread into morality discussions etc. What's up?

J C

Wicknight wrote: »

Apparently you don't understand what the word "believe" means, other wise you would never think the sentence "I think it is possible that X exists" has the same meaning as the sentence "I believe X exists"

....thinking that something is possible...is certainly a pre-condition to believing that something exists.:D

AtomicHorror

J C wrote: »

....thinking that something is possible...is certainly a pre-condition to believing that something exists.:D

The Flying Spaghetti Monster is possible. We'll happily admit that too. But so vanishingly improbable as to be disregarded.

Zombrex

J C wrote: »

....thinking that something is possible...is certainly a pre-condition to believing that something exists.:D

were you dropped a lot as a child ... ?

AtomicHorror

J C wrote: »

....and isn't it an amazing admission that "Gaia is now widely accepted as fact by the scientific community".....so a pagan Godess is now widely accepted by the 'Atheists' ... as the ultimate 'cause' of life .... and they still loudly proclaim that 'religion' and 'science' can never mix!!!!!

Y'see what you've done here is lie. Again.

I imagine you just tell yourself you're doing it for a greater good.

AtomicHorror

Soooo.... while we've got your attention (and we note how selective it is these days), care to take another stab? You can ignore the ones you tried before, if you like. There's some new ones you haven't tried though.

1. Provide a genetic test for Created Kinds. According to you, the taxa is both real and fundamental, so it should be innately more testable than any element of Linnean taxonomy, which is merely a labelling system.

2. Define "Created Pair" in biological and genetic terms. As with 1, this should be easy. Please refrain from scripture-based definitions.

3. Specifically for J C or whoever originally quoted Dr. Gee: Explain whether you intentionally or unintentionally quoted Dr. Gee out of context by suggesting that he was talking about a topic (the theory of evolution) that he was not actually addressing. Justify whichever choice you made in terms of your morals.

4. Please name some scientists currently engaged in creation research. Preferably provide examples of research papers (not reviews or essays) published in the last two years. We will accept scientists engaged in primary research at any institution, whether their briefs specify creation science or not, if their work can be shown to be directly connected with creation science.

5. Please provide an example of the "downward mixing" that should be visible in the fossil record if it is actually evidence of a turbulent flood. We will accept any organism that should only have emerged in the last 100 million years being found at any dated layer below 400 million years. This would be rather modest mixing in the top 10% of layers, but one irrefutable example will suffice.

6. Please clearly confirm that you have now accepted that either a) Your Designer is inept b) your Designer is disinterested in individual human survival c) irreducible complexity is not evidence of design but of mutation or d) redundancy (and thus new function) can arise by mutation. This is not an arbitrary four-way choice, the logic is explained here.

7. Please provide data confirming the rapid sedimentation/rock formation processes that you describe as occurring during the The Flood. The data may be from any primary source but must be based upon wet lab or field work data, rather than a mathematical model or simulation. Since you describe the process as having taken only a few years, this should be testable. The process must be naturally-occuring, fast enough and common enough to explain the build up of the entire fossil record within 10,000 years.

8. Please provide data demonstrating the mathematical, chemical or biological impossibility of the process of evolution. Some conditions: a) Whether the process did or did not occur is not relevant to the "possibility". b) Please confine your data to the process of evolution itself, that being the emergence of variation within life from a pre-formed common ancestor species. c) Abiogenesis is not a consideration. d) Data supporting Creation also does not impact on "possibility".

9. Following on from question 1, it has been asserted that kinds are defined not by genetics but by interbreeding capacity, producing fertile or infertile offspring. Please suggest a means by which we could test the difference between a genuine Created Kind and a false kind or pseudokind that has arisen by the emergence of a new species unable to breed with its former Kind due either to a chromosomal mutation, gene insertion mutation, extinction of an intermediate species or other means in the distant past.

10. Please explain by what mechanism a Created Kind such as the Motherfly Kind could have diversified to produce 148,000 known species (not counting extinct or unidentified species) within the 4,400 years since Noah's Flood. Please explain why such rapid speciation is no longer occurring.

11. Do you think it was morally wrong for an Answers In Genesis film crew to mislead Richard Dawkins into providing an interview for them?

sukikettle

I think there are a lot of scared people in here. Scared there is a God to answer to. And you will pull any rabbit out of a hat to disclaim His sovereignity. I'm telling you now He exists and He is very much in control regardless of all your intelligence because He says man's intelligence is just foolishness. You are literally arguing yourselves to damnation and there are people here actually happy with that outcome so long as they can spend what little time they have left doing whatever it is they like and my friends that there is your god!!!!!!!!!!
Atomic your long-winded points are just you comforting yourself. They are futile and He the Lord is inevitable

Flamed Diving

sukikettle wrote: »

I think there are a lot of scared people in here. Scared there is a God to answer to. And you will pull any rabbit out of a hat to disclaim His sovereignity. I'm telling you now He exists and He is very much in control regardless of all your intelligence because He says man's intelligence is just foolishness. You are literally arguing yourselves to damnation and there are people here actually happy with that outcome so long as they can spend what little time they have left doing whatever it is they like and my friends that there is your god!!!!!!!!!!
Atomic your long-winded points are just you comforting yourself. They are futile and He the Lord is inevitable

If God does exist, I want nothing to do with him. I would gladly spend an eternity in hell then bow my head in submission to a mass-murderer.

2Scoops

sukikettle wrote: »

I think there are a lot of scared people in here. Scared there is a God to answer to. And you will pull any rabbit out of a hat to disclaim His sovereignity. I'm telling you now He exists and He is very much in control regardless of all your intelligence because He says man's intelligence is just foolishness. You are literally arguing yourselves to damnation and there are people here actually happy with that outcome so long as they can spend what little time they have left doing whatever it is they like and my friends that there is your god!!!!!!!!!!

If you're so sure of yourself, why are you even bothering to read this thread? At least try to convert some of us - don't you want to spread the good news? Provide some compelling evidence that God created the world and you will win many new converts here. Start with J C - he said he had some scientific results proving creation, but then he wouldn't share them because he'd rather we all rot in hell, apparently.

Can you be the one to finally save us?

sukikettle

The Lord gives and he takes away. Do you not realise He owes you nothing that your salvation is a free gift because of His Son. You are not a separate entity as much as you want to be. You are God's creation with free will and you have a choice to choose or deny Him. You will either ensnare yourself or be saved. The mass murders my friend you will find evil at the root and guess who is evil's own appointee...yes Satan. So whose child are you and who appointed you God's accuser?

sukikettle

2 scoops it's not a cosy anything goes message. It's just not. The Lord has abundant love and mercy for those who choose Him. While you choose to stay outside you are the devil's child. Look up Matthew and see how the Lord warns against statements just like yours. He doesn't have to prove anything, faith is believing and that's how it is even for me.

kiffer

sukikettle wrote: »

Atomic did you know science and evolution is all theory that not a single scrap of fossil can be linked one to the other. Go look it up

Must... fight... troll...
Must... resist...
ARGH! I can't do it! I must post! Degree wont let me ignore it...

Sukikettle rather than me posting some waffle that you wont bother to follow...

Let me just ask you a few questions, do you think that scientists are telling lies?

Have you any understanding of how dating techniques work?
Who has told you that the dating techniques used to date rocks don't work?
Does that person have any sort of legitimate scientific background?

Argh... No I've got to waffle. A little off topic from where I was going a minute ago but...
Here comes the Science...
I'm going to avoid geological time scales and things that might be a little complicated... lets keep it simple, science lite if you will, diet science.

Are you aware of denrochronology?
I have no doubt that you know you can tell the age of a tree by counting its rings... because it's something that most Irish children learn in primary school.
You should be aware of this.
I expect anyone that has attended primary school in Ireland also knows that you get thinner rings in bad years and thicker rings in good years. (good and bad years for tree growth that is... not some sort of morally good/evil )

So if you chop down an oak tree that is a hundred years old it will have a hundred rings ... with thick and thin lines in a pattern showing you the pattern of good and bad years.

Do you understand this?
Yes or No? This is primary school Nature Table level of education needed here, I'm not asking you if you understand the physics behind radioactive decay of atomic nuclei... or anything crazy like that.

So if you find another oak tree from the same area that was chopped down 50 years ago and it has 100 rings, so was 100 years old when it died.
You match up the pattern of the last 50 rings of that tree with the first 50 rings or so of the tree you just cut down you now have a record of 150 years of tree rings...
It shows good years and bad years...

Does this make sense to you?
Yes or No?
Again this is pretty straight forward it needs no special knowledge beyond that which you learned in primary school and some basic ability to match patterns.

This can be repeated over and over going back further in time, say for example using rings from logs cut to make old buildings...
This creates a record... how many years do you think this record might go back?

rockbeer

sukikettle wrote: »

The Lord gives and he takes away. Do you not realise He owes you nothing that your salvation is a free gift because of His Son. You are not a separate entity as much as you want to be. You are God's creation with free will and you have a choice to choose or deny Him. You will either ensnare yourself or be saved. The mass murders my friend you will find evil at the root and guess who is evil's own appointee...yes Satan. So whose child are you and who appointed you God's accuser?

I genuinely feel sorry for you sukikettle, as you're obviously a deeply confused person. You said on another thread that you used to be a clairvoyant and psychic. Now you're a desperate-sounding christian. You come across as somebody deeply in need of answers that make sense of your life, and as somebody who is prepared to grab those answers, uncritically, from anywhere that makes you feel OK about yourself and superior to others.

Before, it was the occult. Now it's Christianity. Who can say what your answer will be tomorrow.

I've met people like you before, when I had more involvement with pagans and new age types than I tend to these days. As I say, I feel sorry for you. Sorry for your inability to think rationally about things; sorry for the credulity that leads you to believe an ordinary book written by ordinary people a long time ago could possibly be infallible, or that some supernatural phantom of your imagination is going to save you from yourself. But most of all I feel sorry for you because you don't realize that you are actually the very thing you are warning us against.

It is in fact you that is scared. Terrified, in fact, of what might become of yourself if you fail to adequately please this phantom.

Is that any way to waste your life?

Cast off your fear, open your mind, breathe in the heady scent of freedom. You are human, with the amazing ability to think and reason. Please don't waste any more of your precious life on this peurile nonsense.

AtomicHorror

sukikettle wrote: »

I think there are a lot of scared people in here. Scared there is a God to answer to.

How simplistic. And the vast majority of Christians who accept evolution, what are they scared of?

Is suspect that you are the fearful one. You needn't worry Suki. I can't speak for the others, but I have no interest in disproving the existence of God. Evolution doesn't do that.

sukikettle wrote: »

And you will pull any rabbit out of a hat to disclaim His sovereignity. I'm telling you now He exists and He is very much in control regardless of all your intelligence because He says man's intelligence is just foolishness.

Where does He say that? Didn't He give us our intelligence?

sukikettle wrote: »

You are literally arguing yourselves to damnation and there are people here actually happy with that outcome so long as they can spend what little time they have left doing whatever it is they like and my friends that there is your god!!!!!!!!!!

You don't know us Suki. Making such sweeping judgements on people based on such limited information is both foolish and probably some manner of minor sin.

sukikettle wrote: »

Atomic your long-winded points are just you comforting yourself. They are futile and He the Lord is inevitable

If they're futile, refute them. Otherwise I think you and I are done.

Flamed Diving

sukikettle wrote: »

The Lord gives and he takes away. Do you not realise He owes you nothing that your salvation is a free gift because of His Son. You are not a separate entity as much as you want to be. You are God's creation with free will and you have a choice to choose or deny Him. You will either ensnare yourself or be saved. The mass murders my friend you will find evil at the root and guess who is evil's own appointee...yes Satan. So whose child are you and who appointed you God's accuser?

Did God flood the Earth because Satan told him to?

Weird...

sukikettle

God's creation a tree=reliable
Man's carbon dating is certainly not reliable and doesn't claim to be.
Think airbags..think weather forecast with sattelite tracking the weather that just didn't pick up hurricane Charlie in 86. Think dinasaurs who were the only creatures to succomb to an asteroid did you think do find out if they were nephilim, a by-prooduct of the fallen race. Or is all your info man-given unlike mine