The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 1)

Turtwig

Wowsers, this is a big BIG BIG thread.
Sorry to but in with a useless, noobish post.

So admittingly I'm not going to read it all, anyone care to summarise the posts that have gone before this:p

Anyways, on topic, er can anyone link me to evidence, on ID? Or posts that have done so.

What exactly is prophecy, anyways?

Thanks in Advance,
Malt

J C

DiarmaidGNR wrote: »

Just because atheists don't believe in a "god" doesn't mean that we don't care about those close to us, so I would appreciate it if you stopped using the phrase "Materialist".

...where did I say that Materialists didn't care about those close to them???


....the reverse is sadly the case however ... where you have expressed 'worries' that I may not be providing due care for MY children ... on the spurious basis that you disagree with my outlook on life ... and my expressed scientific conclusions on the 'origins' question!!!!:eek:

...I know a number of Materialists and I can vouch that they are caring people!!!

DiarmaidGNR

J C wrote: »

....I prefer the TRUTH ... whatever it may be ... and the empirical evidence points towards God!!!!!

...and could I remind you that the Sovereign Creator of the Universe ISN'T 'fluffy' ... He is infinite Justice tempered by infinite love!!!!

...and I fear His Justice and I rejoice in His love!!!!

...and for the Unsaved there is no 'happy fairytale ending' ... only the nightmare of Hell everlasting, as a result of being on the receiving end of God's perfect Justice!!!!


... God is logically transcendent to His Creation ... and is therefore logically eternal in both directions (i.e. He has always existed and always will exist).

...and because God is Monotheistic, Omnipotent and Omniscient there is no other God before or after Him ... so we don't need to pray to any other non-existent 'god'!!!!!

Who found out all this information about god? - some pope? - moses?
-or maybe "god" just programmed this knowledge into christians when he made them. hahhahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahh

Turtwig

J C wrote: »

...where did I say that Materialists didn't care about those close to them???
...I know a number of Materialists and I can vouch that they are caring people!!!

....the reverse is sadly the case however ... where you have expressed 'worries' that I may not be providing due care for MY children ... on the spurious basis that you disagree with my outlook on life ... and my expressed scientific conclusions on the 'origins' question!!!!:eek:

:facepalm:

Humans atheist, or non-atheist are capable of morals, both have biases, the key difference being that religious people's are based on believes, atheists are based on evidence.JC, Diarmuid, where is this argument going?

DiarmaidGNR wrote: »

-or maybe "god" just programmed this knowledge into christians when he made them. hahhahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahh

In which, case, you have to ask why he programmed non-christians.

J C

Malty_T wrote: »

Wowsers, this is a big BIG BIG thread.
Sorry to but in with a useless, noobish post.

So admittingly I'm not going to read it all, anyone care to summarise the posts that have gone before this:p

Anyways, on topic, er can anyone link me to evidence, on ID? Or posts that have done so.

...put in 'ID' or 'Intelligent Design' into the 'Search this Tread' box at the top of the page and you will be 'rewarded' with a list of all postings which refer to ID.:):eek:

Malty_T wrote: »

What exactly is prophecy, anyways?

...we haven't got to the Prophecy bit yet ... we are still only at the Bible and Creation bit!!!!:D

Nice to welcome you aboard!!!:)

philologos

DiarmaidGNR wrote: »

I consider the majority of books on religious philosophy to be BS.

That makes you closed minded. However, there are many atheist philosophers of religion too. Automatically rejecting arguments given by theists, just because they are theists is just plain ignorant and shows that you aren't really interested in the truth but in confirming your own bias.

J C

DiarmaidGNR wrote: »

Who found out all this information about god? - some pope? - moses?
-or maybe "god" just programmed this knowledge into christians when he made them. hahhahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahh

...God has told us Himself .... In His Word in the Bible, as the man Jesus Christ ... and as the Holy Spirit indwelling every Christian!!:cool::)

J C

Malty_T wrote: »

:facepalm:

Humans atheist, or non-atheist are capable of morals, both have biases, the key difference being that religious people's are based on believes, atheists are based on evidence.JC,

...if the Atheists based their beliefs on the PHYSICAL EVIDENCE ... they would become THEISTS!!!:pac::):D

...the Atheists have been rumbled on this thread ... and found to be adherents to an unfounded faith in the unobserved supposed 'powers' of Material Processes to turn 'Microbes into Microbiologists' ... with nothing added but time and MISTAKES!!!!:pac::):D:eek:

Malty_T wrote: »

Diarmuid, where is this argument going?

... the argument isn't going ANYWHERE for poor Diarmaid!!!:eek::D

JimiTime

Wicknight wrote: »

I imagine you would if you were discussing Christianity or religious belief. You may think that it should be obvious that a baby or child does not believe anything with relation to God, but how many times do you encounter people saying that baby such and such is a Christian baby, or a Jewish baby, or a Muslim baby. They aren't.

Exactly.

They are an atheist baby,

Oooooh so close.

they do not believe in any of these concepts.

They have no concept of these concepts, so defining them by such concepts is ridiculous. Atheism is defined by theism. Without theism, there would be no atheism. A baby's mind exists in the world where neither theism nor atheism exists.

Saying the baby doesn't believe anything and saying it is an atheist are the same things (given the context that Robin is using the term)

If we merely define terms ourselves then, I'll just say a baby I know is a Christian. You see the way I'm using the term means that the baby is a Christian baby in that it was born to Christian parents. Or it was baptised or some such. As i said, silly stuff.

You become a theist by believing in a theistic religion. Until you do that you are an atheist. You do not believe. People do not believe things without being exposed to them.

Same as I asked Robin. Ask a child of 4 who has had no exposure to the concept of God etc, 'Do you believe in God?' Whats his answer?

1) Yes
2) No
3) What?

He neither believes nor doesn't believe. Of course if we define atheism as an ignorant position, then fine. The problem is, atheism clearly isn't a position of ignorance. If you want to start molding its meaning and definition to suit whatever, then its simply this word that is valueless.

To call a baby an atheist is not to suggest what the baby believes, as you say babies don't believe anything,

They also don't 'not believe' anything. There is absolutely no doubt that atheism requires a thought process. The very word exists because of theism.

it is merely a description of the baby, the same as saying it is a human or a carnivore.

Its a poor use of language based on a subjective and ambiguous use of a word that describes a thought process relating to a particular topic.

Aw man, I said I was finished with this.:rolleyes::o

Turtwig

J C wrote: »

...God has told us Himself .... In His Word in the Bible, as the man Jesus Christ ... and as the Holy Spirit indwelling every Christian!!:cool::)

Ah ok, right, but Jesus was 2000 years ago, the bible is 8000 years at most old, but humankind is over 100,000 years ago. Why wait over 90,000 years to make the big reveal?

J C

Malty_T wrote: »

Ah ok, right, but Jesus was 2000 years ago, the bible is 8000 years at most old, but humankind is over 100,000 years ago. Why wait over 90,000 years to make the big reveal?

...it's only the 'long-agers' and the Theistic Evolutionists who believe that this 90,000 year gap occurred ... so I'll let THEM try and explain that one!!!:eek:
...but I would't bet on them doing so, based upon 'past form' on this thread!!!!:eek:

I believe that the Earth is less than 10,000 years old and God's revelaton has been ongoing since Mankind was first Created ... with NO GAP!!!:)

Morbert

J C wrote: »

...God has told us Himself .... In His Word in the Bible, as the man Jesus Christ ... and as the Holy Spirit indwelling every Christian!!:cool::)

Hey, just to let you know I was talking to God the other day. He says you're talking ****e.

philologos

DiarmaidGNR wrote: »

That's a well made point , but its wrong, - I am only interested in the truth, that's why I consider it BS. I like books that question why we believe in religion and god, but not books that question the existence of a "god".

This isn't improving your standpoint. You are so certain that you have the truth that you reject anything that doesn't agree with your worldview because you believe so strongly that you are right. What is the difference between you and someone who doesn't think about their faith?

DiarmaidGNR wrote: »

All religions are businesses built on the fear, superstition, and stupidity of man.

Except they aren't. Most are non-profit. Infact you have to be non-profit to be considered a religion in Ireland. Donations aren't to be forced either, they must come from the conscience of the believer. You could go to church and never give if you wanted.

DiarmaidGNR

J C wrote: »

...God has told us Himself .... In His Word in the Bible, as the man Jesus Christ ... and as the Holy Spirit indwelling every Christian!!:cool::)

The bible was written by man, therefore christianity is man made.

J C

DiarmaidGNR wrote: »

That's a well made point , but its wrong, - I am only interested in the truth, that's why I consider it BS. I like books that question why we believe in religion and god, but not books that question the existence of a "god".

... so you prefer to live in the 'Atheist Safe Zone' ... of merely questioning WHY people believe in God ... and reading Atheist-friendly 'stories' about why they do so!!!!:eek::)

...surely books that question (and in some cases answer) whether God exists (using empirical EVIDENCE) get to the 'heart of the matter' ????

....or are you afraid to go there????:D

Zombrex

JimiTime wrote: »

They have no concept of these concepts, so defining them by such concepts is ridiculous.

Not really. A baby has no concept of whooping cough, that doesn't mean I can't say "my baby has whooping cough"

A baby has no concept of skin colour. That doesn't mean I can't say "My baby has black skin"

It is in conversations between adults that we discuss the properties and states on our babies. The babies do not have to be aware of these concepts in order for that discussion to take place.

JimiTime wrote: »

Atheism is defined by theism. Without theism, there would be no atheism. A baby's mind exists in the world where neither theism nor atheism exists.

Yes but unfortunately for the baby he exists in a world where these concepts do exist.

JimiTime wrote: »

If we merely define terms ourselves then, I'll just say a baby I know is a Christian. You see the way I'm using the term means that the baby is a Christian baby in that it was born to Christian parents. Or it was baptised or some such. As i said, silly stuff.

Well if you make it clear that by "Christian baby" you mean a baby of Christian parents then I would have no objection to that. I think Robin has made it clear what context he is using atheism when discussion a baby.

JimiTime wrote: »

Same as I asked Robin. Ask a child of 4 who has had no exposure to the concept of God etc, 'Do you believe in God?' Whats his answer?

1) Yes
2) No
3) What?

That is irrelevant. Ask a child of 4 do you have whooping cough the answer will be irrelevant. The child could say Sponge Bob that doesn't change the fact that he/she does not believe in theistic beliefs, for what ever reason. It is a comment on the current state of the child's beliefs, a set that does not include theism.

JimiTime wrote: »

He neither believes nor doesn't believe.

That isn't true. He doesn't believe. To get into why he doesn't believe is a different issue. If he doesn't believe because he has never been exposed to the concept that is obviously different to not believing because he has rejected the concept.

But again, in the context that "atheism" is being used, the why is irrelevant. It is a statement of state. The baby/child does not believe theistic beliefs. They are atheist.

I agree with you that this is not always the best context to use the term. I consider my atheism to be a rejection of belief, rather than simply the absense of it. But I totally understand where Robin is coming from when he uses it like this and I think it is certainly helpful, particular in this current climate, to be reminded that babies and children do not believe these concepts.

JimiTime wrote: »

Of course if we define atheism as an ignorant position, then fine. The problem is, atheism clearly isn't a position of ignorance.

Clearly to who? Lot of people use the term atheism in this context. In fact I would say this is far more common that the other context that I use it, a rejection of known belief.

JimiTime wrote: »

They also don't 'not believe' anything.

If by "not believe" you mean have rejected then I agree with you. But not believe can simply mean they do not believe.

JimiTime wrote: »

There is absolutely no doubt that atheism requires a thought process. The very word exists because of theism.

Well actually the word atheism came first, theism came later. Atheist was originally an insult.

JimiTime wrote: »

Aw man, I said I was finished with this.:rolleyes::o

Don't fight it, embrace it :pac:

Turtwig

J C wrote: »

...it's only the 'long-agers' and the Theistic Evolutionists who believe that this 90,000 year gap occurred ... so I'll let THEM try and explain that one!!!:eek:
...but I would't bet on them doing so, based upon 'past form' on this thread!!!!:eek:

I believe that the Earth is less than 10,000 years old and God's revelaton has been ongoing since Mankind was first Created ... with NO GAP!!!:)

So, dinosaurs only lasted a thousands years then, poor critters, never stood a chance.

I'm not going to bother with that argument (yet), -insert some proverb about not fighting being good here-

My question is this :
Has a year always being 365.25 days, in the bible does it state what a year, or a day is defined to be, because who knows your ten thousand years may actually be the 4.5 billion that the other side claim. In which case, many pens have been fought for nothing

robindch

JimiTime wrote: »

Tell me, do they 'not believe' in God?

You may have missed my earlier reply to this, but I think it explains things fairly clearly:

robindch wrote:

Last time it came up, I distinguished between default atheism (as babies have, and as you have regarding, say, the existence of a teapot orbiting Jupiter), and reasoned atheism (what people who are able to reason, are able to do). The end result is the same, though the process to reach it is different.

If you can see the difference between the two, then the position isn't quite as idiotic as you appear to think.

JimiTime wrote: »

As a matter of interest though, what is your motivation for trying to push this notion? Or if push is too strong a term, thinking it? It is a curious rationale.

I'm not really pushing it, I'm just pointing out that "default" atheism is the natural condition of humanity, regardless of whether or not such a position irritates the religious (and I sincerely wish it didn't).

J C

Morbert wrote: »

Hey, just to let you know I was talking to God the other day. He says you're talking ****e.

...so HAVE you become a Christian then???
...otherwise it was a Deceiving Spirit that you were talking to!!!!!:eek:

...and The Holy Spirit is telling me that the latter is definitively the case!!!!

JimiTime

Wicknight wrote: »

Not really. A baby has no concept of whooping cough, that doesn't mean I can't say "my baby has whooping cough"

A baby has no concept of skin colour. That doesn't mean I can't say "My baby has black skin"

:eek:Sorry Wicknight, I just can't go on with this. Its insane!

Don't fight it, embrace it :pac:

Get behind me satan:)

JimiTime

robindch wrote: »

, I'm just pointing out that "default" atheism is the natural condition of humanity, regardless of whether or not such a position irritates the religious (and I sincerely wish it didn't).

Does it irritate the religious? Apart from a few folk on here, I've never really come across anyone talking about it. Anyone 'famous' get irritated by it?

J C

Malty_T wrote: »

So, dinosaurs only lasted a thousands years then, poor critters, never stood a chance.

... more like about 2,000 years ... many appear to have died out in the Aftermath of the Flood!!!

...some are still alive today ... the Crocodile and the Rhinocerous to name two!!!

Malty_T wrote: »

My question is this :
Has a year always being 365.25 days, in the bible does it state what a year, or a day is defined to be, because who knows your ten thousand years may actually be the 4.5 billion that the other side claim. In which case, many pens have been fought for nothing

...the Bible DOESN'T say that a day or a year has EVER differed from their lengths today!!!

....anyway, none of the Theistic Evolutionists have risen to your challenge to explain the 90,000 year gap in Divine Revelation in accordance with their Chronologies!!!!

...maybe you might like to rise to the challenge yourself!!!:D:)

philologos

robindch wrote: »

You may have missed my earlier reply to this, but I think it explains things fairly clearly:I'm not really pushing it, I'm just pointing out that "default" atheism is the natural condition of humanity, regardless of whether or not such a position irritates the religious (and I sincerely wish it didn't).

It doesn't irritate me at all. It's just well, a load of old tosh :pac:

If anything children are born agnostic, they don't have knowledge of anything let alone of God. A knowledge of God is to be learned, just like a knowledge of language, or colours, or numerous other things that a child will not know. Yet it would be lunacy to suggest that a child actively denies that any of these things exist, wouldn't it?

DiarmaidGNR

Jakkass wrote: »

Except they aren't. Most are non-profit. Infact you have to be non-profit to be considered a religion in Ireland. Donations aren't to be forced either, they must come from the conscience of the believer. You could go to church and never give if you wanted.

Non profit eh.... I wonder how much these religions have in the bank,- but for some reason most of them won't release this information despite it being a legal obligation. Sure who cares how much money they have, -it's not as if they show it off! Huge churches plastered with gold stuff, and did you ever see the Vatican!!!!!!! - That's just the kind of place jesus had in mind!
Do you know how much priests charge for weddings, funerals, anniversary masses, and for the main part donations are forced when they shove the collection basket in your face, and I almost forgot about those envelopes they give you that tell you how much to pay and when. And dues. (true story- my local priest actually published a notice with a list of the people that didn't pay dues)

But at least they give their millions to charity, - oh... no... wait... -they use it to pay off people the raped.

Turtwig

J C wrote: »

...the Bible DOESN'T say that a day or a year has EVER differed from their lengths today!!!

Ok, I may be misunderstanding here, but that isn't answering my questioning clearly enough (to me:o)

So, ahem, I beg your patience here,
Does the bible state what exactly a year is? If it doesn't say anything then surely the argument can be made either way, but if the bible says in no uncertain terms what a year is then we know for sure there is actually a disagreement between creation folks and er non-creation folk.

J C

DiarmaidGNR wrote: »

Non profit eh.... I wonder how much these religions have in the bank,- but for some reason most of them won't release this information despite it being a legal obligation. Sure who cares how much money they have, -it's not as if they show it off! Huge churches plastered with gold stuff, and did you ever see the Vatican!!!!!!! - That's just the kind of place jesus had in mind!
Do you know how much priests charge for weddings, funerals, anniversary masses, and for the main part donations are forced when they shove the collection basket in your face, and I almost forgot about those envelopes they give you that tell you how much to pay and when. And dues. (true story- my local priest actually published a notice with a list of the people that didn't pay dues)

But at least they give their millions to charity, - oh... no... wait... -they use it to pay off people the raped.

...there is ONE MEDIATOR between God and Man ... the Lord Jesus Christ!!!

...and ONE NAME by which we may be Saved ... the Lord Jesus Christ!!!

....simple, isn't it ... when you know how!!!!:)

...and no money is required to 'change hands' in order to be Saved!!!
...it's a matter that is directly between yourself and Jesus Christ!!!:D

philologos

You know this forum has a charter? You might want to read it first DiarmaidGNR?

Anyhow, you said all religions aren't non-profit. Then you refer to an incident that has happened within one denomination. You do realise that there are many other Christians on this forum, Anglicans, Baptists, Pentecostals, non-denominational, Presbyterian and so on. Secondly, most Catholics who are on this forum outwardly oppose this.

Carrying on, yes, the Catholic Church has been involved in social projects all over the world. As I'm not a member of that church, I am not as well acquainted with how it spends its money as I am with my church which for the most part uses it's funds for global outreach, financing the church, paying the stipend for the pastors, investments to secure funding for the church, and charitable projects.

Turtwig

DiarmaidGNR wrote: »

Non profit eh.... I wonder how much these religions have in the bank,- but for some reason most of them won't release this information despite it being a legal obligation. Sure who cares how much money they have, -it's not as if they show it off! Huge churches plastered with gold stuff, and did you ever see the Vatican!!!!!!! - That's just the kind of place jesus had in mind!
Do you know how much priests charge for weddings, funerals, anniversary masses, and for the main part donations are forced when they shove the collection basket in your face, and I almost forgot about those envelopes they give you that tell you how much to pay and when. And dues. (true story- my local priest actually published a notice with a list of the people that didn't pay dues)

But at least they give their millions to charity, - oh... no... wait... -they use it to pay off people the raped.

Golden rule - leave emotion out.

J C

Malty_T wrote: »

Ok, I may be misunderstanding here, but that isn't answering my questioning clearly enough (to me:o)

So, ahem, I beg your patience here,
Does the bible state what exactly a year is? If it doesn't say anything then surely the argument can be made either way, but if the bible says in no uncertain terms what a year is then we know for sure there is actually a disagreement between creation folks and er non-creation folk.

...the Bible defines the length of a Day in Genesis 1:-

Ge 1:3 ¶ Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.

It defines the fact that a year is UNCHANGING in Genesis 1 by explaining that astronomical phemomena are to be used to measure time and a year is to be a complete cycle of seasons and a day is to be a complete cycle of light and darkness - just like they are still, in practice, measured today:-
Ge 1:14 ¶ Then God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years;
15 "and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth"; and it was so.
16 Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also.
17 God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth,
18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good.
19 So the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

...and still NO explantion for the 90,000 year 'revelatory gap' from the Theistic Evolutionists ... why am I NOT surprised????!!!!:D

fintonie

if I look in the mirror I see me if I look behind me I see nobody faith tells me to accept if there is nobody in front of me and nobody behind me am I alone