The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 1)

Turtwig · 01-09-2009 10:47pm

J C wrote: »

... could I (cheekily) suggest that IF they really had reached the ultimate in understanding and enlightenment ... they would give up on Karama and believe on Christ ... to Save them!!!!:pac::):D

Who know's maybe that's where their enlightenment led them?
The point is that they could have been atheist and still had pure hearts

J C · 01-09-2009 10:47pm

wrote:

Originally Posted by J C
...so do YOU believe that you ARE a rats melodian?

Malty_T

I'll answer, when you answer : I asked first:P

Would you feel the need to take pills if you were on OUR side?

...if I was trying to maintain a belief in Spontaneous Evolution against all of the available evidence I might need a little (pharmaceutical) help in continuing to do so!!!:pac::):D

J C · 01-09-2009 10:50pm

Malty_T wrote: »

So again, just to clarify,
Can any process of life be spontaneous?

...falling in love...perhaps???!!!!:D:)

Turtwig · 01-09-2009 10:54pm

J C wrote: »

...falling in love...perhaps???!!!!:D:)

Ahem:o:o

I meant process by which life began/created, is it possible for such processes to be spontaneous?

J C · 01-09-2009 10:55pm

Malty_T wrote: »

Who know's maybe that's where their enlightenment led them?
The point is that they could have been atheist and still had pure hearts

...what's a 'pure heart' when it's at home???:eek:

J C · 01-09-2009 10:56pm

Malty_T wrote: »

Ahem:o:o

I meant process by which life began/created, is it possible for such processes to be spontaneous?

NO

....why are you blushing?

Turtwig · 01-09-2009 10:59pm

J C wrote: »

NO

Perfect.

So I'll concede now to you that spontaneous evolution is a pile of muck er pondslime

But, I still think evolution is plausible. No longer spontaneous, but still it's plausible in a slow and gradual way.:)

J C · 01-09-2009 11:06pm

Malty_T wrote: »

Perfect.

So I'll concede now to you that spontaneous evolution is a pile of muck er pondslime

But, I still think evolution is plausible. No longer spontaneous, but still it's plausible in a slow and gradual way.:)

whether Evolution is slow or fast doesn't alter the fact that it has to be spontaneous IF only materialistic processes are allowed!!!!

...and therefore Materialistic Evolution is an IMPOSSIBILITY!!!!!:D

....BTW thanks for conceding ... and letting us all get back to our families!!!!!:D

....but why didn't you do it earlier and save us all a horseload of time!!!!:)

Turtwig · 01-09-2009 11:10pm

J C wrote: »

whether it is slow or fast doesn't alter the fact that it has to be spontaneous IF only materialistic processes are allowed!!!!

Please explain...

J C · 01-09-2009 11:18pm

Malty_T wrote: »

Please explain...

...to use an anology ... a volcano is a spontaneous process of nature .... but whether the lava flows slowly or fast doesn't alter that fact that the process is spontaneous i.e. without intelligent direction.

...so why do you go half way in accepting that Spontaneous Evolution is "a load of baloney" ... while still clinging to a belief that Spontaneous processes (i.e. non-intelligently directed processes) could generate the copious quantities of Complex Specified Information observed in living organisms?

Turtwig · 01-09-2009 11:22pm

J C wrote: »

...to use an anology ... a volcano is a spontaneous process of nature .... but whether the lava flows slowly or fast doesn't alter that fact that the process is spontaneous i.e. without intelligent direction.

...so why do you go half way in accepting that Spontaneous Evolution is "a load of baloney" ... while still clinging to a belief that Spontaneous processes could generate the copious quantities of Complex Specified Information observed in living organisms?

I go 'half way' because I accept that the idea of a spontaneous life creation process is baloney, however I still accept the idea that slow,gradual evolution is possible. I thought God designed everything on this earth...including volcanoes???

Even then, I still don't see what that analogy has to do with the process of life.

J C · 01-09-2009 11:28pm

Malty_T wrote: »

I go 'half way' because I accept that the idea of a spontaneous life creation process is baloney, however I still accept the idea that slow,gradual evolution is possible. I thought God designed everything on this earth...including volcanoes???

....God left room within His Design for spontaneity!!!!

...but no such room exists with Complex Specified entities like the genetic information observed in living organisms !!!!

Malty_T wrote: »

Even then, I still don't see what that analogy has to do with the process of life.

... why do you believe that slow and gradual undirected (i.e. Spontaneous) processes are any more likely to generate Complex Specific Information than fast undirected (i.e. Spontaneous) processes?

...surely slow processes would, if anything, be even less likely to generate something meaningful, than fast processes.

Turtwig · 01-09-2009 11:34pm

J C wrote: »

why do you believe that slow and gradual undirected (Spontaneous) processes

I don't believe that the processes were spontaneous, why can't you accept that?

J C · 01-09-2009 11:42pm

Malty_T wrote: »

I don't believe that the processes were spontaneous, why can't you accept that?

...because, by definition, an undirected process is a spontaneous process!!!

....so do you believe that Evolution was intelligently directed ... and don't come back with the answer that it was 'directed' by environmental selection...

...we have been repeatedly over this ground before .. and found that the problem with this idea was spontaneously/undirectedly providing any meaningful raw material from which to select in the first place!!!:)

...and why were you blushing earlier on???

...and what's a 'pure heart'???

Turtwig · 01-09-2009 11:44pm

J C wrote: »

...because, by definition, an undirected process is a spontaneous process!!!

Well, I'm defining it as being different you can still understand my concept can't you?

J C · 01-09-2009 11:52pm

Malty_T wrote: »

Well, I'm defining it as being different you can still understand my concept can't you?

NO

Plain English is Plain English

...and go on and tell us what a 'Pure Heart' is!!!:D

monosharp · 02-09-2009 1:18am

J C wrote: »

....you obviously have 'issues' (with God)!!!!!:D

I have no issues with God, Buddha, Thor, Zeus. I do dislike Ronald McDonald though. :cool::pac::D:p

....God is loving and Just .... and He is ENTITLED to be 'self-important' ... as the Creator and sustainer of the Universe!!!!

A supreme being would have no reason to be self-important. Thats a negative human trait.

He isn't a liar, nor Greedy ... but He is a Jealous God pursuing justice against the Spiritually Depraved who hate Him!!!!

He lied to Adam. "Yo Adam mate, eat this apple and you'll die" whereas the Snake told them the truth.

...and the only liar in the Garden of Eden was Satan ...

He told them if they ate the fruit they would find knowledge about stuff. The snake, in a way, released them from Gods slavery.

God told them eating the fruit would kill them, i.e > a lie, the Snake told them the truth.

God is quite entitled to give life ... and to take it away!!!:cool:

So hes a murderer ? :cool::P:rolleyes::D:):pac:

monosharp · 02-09-2009 1:20am

J C wrote: »

... Buddhism doesn't even claim to Save you!!!

Because theres nothing to save me from. !!!

:P:pac:

...unfortunately there is no evidence for such a belief ... but lack of evidence is no impediment to the vivid imaginings of an Evolutionist!!!:pac::D

There is more evidence for evolution then there is for gravity.

Do you believe in gravity ? or is gravity just God 'pushing' you down ?

:pac::D

monosharp · 02-09-2009 1:24am

J C wrote: »

...as for his challenge ... I have ALREADY presented the case for Creation and the case against Evolution REPEATEDLY and COMPREHENSIVELY on this thread!!!!

That would be the "God did it" evidence ?

:pac::D

....and just because there are a few 'die-hard' Evolutionists out there whose anti-God agenda blinds them to the obvious invalidity of Evolution doesn't alter the fact that Spontaneous Evolution is a load of baloney!!!!!:pac::):D

So 99% of Biologists including thousands of Christian Biologists are wrong and your 2000-3000 year old pamphlet is right ?

Fanny Cradock · 02-09-2009 4:11am

monosharp wrote: »

What is wrong exactly with what I've said ?

In the Bible you can find incidents of everything I stated. Please note I did not call 'God' these things, I called the 'God of the Bible' these things because its there in writing in the book.

I'm not making it up, its right there in print.
You have a Bible ? Would you like me to point out where you can find these things ?

It's not up for debate. The fact that this verbal warning comes hot on the heels of the a very similar discussion you had only yesterday means you should know better. The God you describe is not one I believe in either, so I'm not inclined to offer a defence. If you can't understand why such accusations are unacceptable on this forum then I suggest you read the charter and stick by it. Alternatively you can save me the trouble of banning you for another outburst by deciding not to post here again. I've already been nice when I decided to not issue you with a yet another warning. Please play nice.

philologos · 02-09-2009 12:38pm

monosharp: You're not getting the point - JC is quite correct to say that the Snake, aka Satan was the liar. The snake said that if people would eat from the tree, they would become like gods.

God told them, that if they ate from this tree they would die. Indeed, Adam and Eve did die. Albeit not immediately. The wages of sin is death (Romans 6). Adam and Eve brought death and sin into the world by their transgression (Romans 5:12).

So yes, God was telling the truth. Adam and Eve no longer had immortality, and due to their sinfulness they were due to die.

MooseJam · 02-09-2009 5:40pm

Jakkass wrote: »

monosharp: You're not getting the point - JC is quite correct to say that the Snake, aka Satan was the liar. The snake said that if people would eat from the tree, they would become like gods.

God told them, that if they ate from this tree they would die. Indeed, Adam and Eve did die. Albeit not immediately. The wages of sin is death (Romans 6). Adam and Eve brought death and sin into the world by their transgression (Romans 5:12).

So yes, God was telling the truth. Adam and Eve no longer had immortality, and due to their sinfulness they were due to die.

Is there a quote from the bible saying they were created immortal,

Did they have a soul ? if they were immortal what was the point or purpose of their soul.

monosharp · 02-09-2009 5:47pm

Jakkass wrote: »

monosharp: You're not getting the point - JC is quite correct to say that the Snake, aka Satan was the liar. The snake said that if people would eat from the tree, they would become like gods.

This isn't really on topic but:

The snake said "Eat from this fruit and you'll know good and evil" = truth
God said "Eat this fruit and you'll die" = Eventually die and he left out the benefit. i.e > knowing good and evil.

Also nowhere in the bible does it say Adam and Eve were immortal so they would have died anyways. = A lie to tell them they would die if they ate the fruit because they were going to die anyways.

J C · 02-09-2009 8:38pm

monosharp wrote: »

I have no issues with God, Buddha, Thor, Zeus. I do dislike Ronald McDonald though. :cool::pac::D:p

...there is only One True God .... all the rest are the vain imaginings of men!!!!:eek:

monosharp wrote: »

A supreme being would have no reason to be self-important. Thats a negative human trait.

...of course a Supreme Being is by definition Supremely self-important!!!!
...and self-importance isn't a 'negative' human trait ... what do you want ?... everybody to be self-effacing and with an inferiority complex!!!!:eek:

monosharp wrote: »

He (God) lied to Adam. "Yo Adam mate, eat this apple and you'll die" whereas the Snake told them the truth.

OK let's see what happened:-
Ge 2:16 ¶ And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat;
17 "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."
....so God told them the TRUTH that they would die if they rebelled against Him and joined Satan's Luciferian Knostic System.

...and Eve and Satan mixed up and added to the Word of God .... and LIED to suit their own selfish ends!!!
Ge 3:1 ¶ Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, "Has God indeed said, 'You shall not eat of every tree of the garden'?"
2 And the woman said to the serpent, "We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden;
3 "but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die'"

monosharp wrote: »

He (Satan) told them if they ate the fruit they would find knowledge about stuff. The snake, in a way, released them from Gods slavery.

OK let's see what happened:-
4 Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die.
5 "For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

...Satan LIED when he knowingly contradicted God's Word ... and not only did Man die spiritually, as a result of joining Lucifer's Gnosticism, they died physically as well ...just like God had told them!!!!

monosharp wrote: »

God told them eating the fruit would kill them, i.e > a lie, the Snake told them the truth.

...'eating of' (i.e. joining) 'the tree of the kowledge of good and evil' (Luciferian Gnosticism) DID bring BOTH spiritual and physical death into the World ... and we are living with the 'fallen' consequences (both spiritually and physically) ever since!!!

monosharp wrote: »

So hes a murderer ? :cool::P:rolleyes::D:):pac:

...God has created all life ... so it is also properly within His power to take it away.
The term murderer can ONLY be applied to a Human Being killing another Human Being (because they are equivalent to each other)...it CANNOT be applied to an Omnipotent Creator God ... who created life, in the first place, and therefore has absolute dominion over it!!!:D

J C · 02-09-2009 8:44pm

monosharp wrote: »

Because theres nothing to save me from. !!!:P:pac:

...nothing except the flames of Hell!!!:eek:

monosharp wrote: »

There is more evidence for evolution then there is for gravity.

Do you believe in gravity ? or is gravity just God 'pushing' you down ? :pac::D

....more of the baloney that Evolutionists confuse themselves with!!!:D

Spontaneous Evolution is an unobserved and completely unfounded Scientific Conjecture ... while Gravity is an observable and well-founded Scientific Law!!!!:eek::D:)

J C · 02-09-2009 8:55pm

monosharp wrote: »

That would be the "God did it" evidence ? :pac::D

...YES it would be the objectively observable evidence that 'God did it'!!!!:)

monosharp wrote: »

So 99% of Biologists including thousands of Christian Biologists are wrong and your 2000-3000 year old pamphlet is right ?

...it all depends on this 'weasel word' called Evolution. I count myself amongst the 99% of Biologists who accept that Evolution occurs (within Created Kinds and using pre-existing genetic diversity - that was originally Intelligently Designed by God)!!!!:D

J C · 02-09-2009 9:05pm

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

It's not up for debate. The fact that this verbal warning comes hot on the heels of the a very similar discussion you had only yesterday means you should know better. The God you describe is not one I believe in either, so I'm not inclined to offer a defence. If you can't understand why such accusations are unacceptable on this forum then I suggest you read the charter and stick by it. Alternatively you can save me the trouble of banning you for another outburst by deciding not to post here again. I've already been nice when I decided to not issue you with a yet another warning. Please play nice.

....While I accept that you have a difficult job to do as moderator, I feel that I must come to monosharp's defence on this one. It is all too easy to shut up those we disagree with ... when we should be giving them logical reasons for why and what we believe.
The Bible asks us to do so in 1Pe 3:15
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

....and your statement that "It's not up for debate" smacks more of a Medieval Inquisitor or Pontiff cutting off serious questions because they were unsure of their ground ... than a Confident Christian going forth to defend the Word of God against all of the powers of Hell.

OK, monosharp was very provocative in his comments ... but I would be a hypocrite if I were to start bemoaning people who are provocative on this thread!!!!:eek:

...a bit of provocation doesn't do any harm ... it wakens everyone up .... and perhaps 'returning the favour' might ultimately be a better way of dealing with monosharp's provocation than banning him/her!!!!:D

J C · 02-09-2009 9:17pm

MooseJam wrote: »

Is there a quote from the bible saying they were created immortal,

Did they have a soul ? if they were immortal what was the point or purpose of their soul.

It is implied that they are immortal here:-
Ge 2:16 ¶ And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat;
17 "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

and the immortality of Man is also implied here:-
Ge 1:26 ¶ Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness
....because God Himself is immortal the statement that Man was created in God's "image and likeness" would include the likeness of God's immortality.

The repeated statements in Genesis 1 that everything was created 'good' also implies that death and disease weren't an issue after the Creation and before the Fall.

The actions of Adam and Eve are confirmed in 1Co 15:21 as the REASON WHY death entered the World thereby implying that Man would have been immortal but for the Fall
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

Man was created doubly immortal ... both body and soul .... only the soul remains immortal ... but at the end of time, the physical body will be resurrected to immortality ... the unsaved to eternal damnation ... and the saved to eternal salvation.:)

...and BTW the soul is the personality of the person and its function is to animate the body, while the body is alive and to return to judgement by Jesus Christ when the body dies.

Turtwig · 03-09-2009 12:34am

JC,

You're knowledge of the bible is clearly impressive, and I could only wish that I knew a fraction of what you do:o

What I do know though is that naturally occurring spontaneous process happen all the time...so anything is possible including Spontaneous Evolution (I finally understand your reason to use that word

)

monosharp · 03-09-2009 1:15am

J C wrote: »

...there is only One True God .... all the rest are the vain imaginings of men!!!!:eek:

And if you were born in Pakistan you'd be Muslim, if you were born in Thailand you'd be Buddhist.

So you'd worship the only One True God (Allah) or none at all (Buddhism).

Aren't you lucky your born in a good old Christian country and not one of those satan worshipping ones ?

...of course a Supreme Being is by definition Supremely self-important!!!!
...and self-importance isn't a 'negative' human trait ... what do you want ?... everybody to be self-effacing and with an inferiority complex!!!!:eek:

I'm God, I created the Heaven and Earth, and it was good.

As Ricky Gervais said, "Theres pride in your work but come on!"

"but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."[/COLOR]
....so God told them the TRUTH that they would die if they rebelled against Him and joined Satan's Luciferian Knostic System.

In the day you eat it you will surely die = a lie, they didn't die the same day.

4 Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die.
5 "For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

And ... thats exactly what happened isn't it ? They ate the fruit and came to know good and evil.

...Satan LIED when he knowingly contradicted God's Word ... and not only did Man die spiritually, as a result of joining Lucifer's Gnosticism, they died physically as well ...just like God had told them!!!!

God said they'd die that day, they didn't.

...God has created all life ... so it is also properly within His power to take it away.

Good argument for abortion. If I and my wife give life to a baby then its within our power to take it away.

The term murderer can ONLY be applied to a Human Being killing another Human Being (because they are equivalent to each other)...it CANNOT be applied to an Omnipotent Creator God ... who created life, in the first place, and therefore has absolute dominion over it!!!:D

So we're Gods little toys and if he throws a fit and wants to break us he can ?

:pac::D

The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 1)

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